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Old 07-16-2013, 08:07 AM    (permalink
jth1331
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Cutler is so inconsistent, and prone to turnovers, there is no way I would say he is a franchise QB after all these years now. He would've developed into one by now, but he still makes the same mistakes and has the same inconsistency he showed in his early years in Denver.
If the Bears struggle, are mediocre, and don't make the playoffs, do they resign Cutler? Isn't he a free agent after this season?
He's a middle of the pack, and I'm on the fence with him and Cam actually.

Also, I think he overrates Schaub. Not a fan of Schaub, I don't think he can take the Texans to the next level.
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Old 07-16-2013, 08:17 AM    (permalink
Denver Bronco56
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I think Cutler was great under shanhan's style of offense getting the QB out of the pocket, but he never improved, if anything playing behind terrible Olines in Chicago has hindered his developement and he never blossomed into what Bronco fans were seeing in him before McDaniels blew everything up.


I dont care who you are as a QB if you get stuck behind a bad Oline you have to rush throws, you dont usually have time to go through progressions, you have to usually throw up prayers or try and make something out of nothing, you also tend to lock on to a player due to not having the time... and Like Cutler i think Stafford is suffering from this also.
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Old 07-16-2013, 08:22 AM    (permalink
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Matt Schaub is a middle of the pack qb to me. His limitations will hinder the Texans from ever taking the next step.
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Old 07-16-2013, 08:25 AM    (permalink
Denver Bronco56
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Shaub has never impressed me he has benefited from Kubiak and the talent they have put around him. Shaub is good enough to win games but he isnt the guy that will take over a game and single handedly put his team on his back.
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Old 07-16-2013, 09:02 AM    (permalink
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  1. Aaron Rodgers
  2. Peyton Manning
  3. Tom Brady
  4. Joe Flacco
  5. Eli Manning
  6. Drew Brees
  7. Matt Ryan
  8. Ben Roethlisberger
  9. Andrew Luck
  10. Colin Kaepernick
  11. Russell Wilson
  12. Tony Romo
  13. Robert Griffin III
  14. Jay Cutler
  15. Matthew Stafford
  16. Cam Newton
  17. Andy Dlaton
  18. Matt Schaub
  19. Christian Pondder
  20. Alex Smith
  21. Phillip Ricers
  22. Sam Bradford
  23. Josh Freeman
  24. Ryan Tannehill
  25. Carson Palmer
  26. Mark Sanchez
  27. Jake Locker
  28. Michael Vick
  29. Brandon Weeden
  30. E.J. Manuel
  31. Blaine Gabbert
  32. Matt Flynn
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:54 AM    (permalink
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i dont even think joe flacco would take joe flacco over brees
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Old 07-16-2013, 11:09 AM    (permalink
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They won 10 games. Not making the playoffs was bad luck with a 10 win season.

Again, his defense playing well shouldn't be held against him, especially when how many TDs they scored actually inhibited his statistical output. I'll agree to disagree. I think Cutler was better in 2012 than Newton.
I've seen you make this argument a few times here and you absolutely can hold certain situations against QB's, unless you think all QB's are created equal. You just can't look at the stats, or wins/losses, and don't take any of the situation into consideration.


For instance with Stafford, his large number of attempts and being behind a lot has a bunch to do with his yardage totals, but the situation he is in also accounts for a large number of turnovers. If you put a QB on a team with a terrible offensive line, no RB to move the chains, a bad defense, and a bunch of make shift WR's around the best WR what should you expect? A bunch of turnovers and forcing the ball to Calvin. Especially when most of those games they were down by 2-3 scores quick. Or should he trust Mike Thomas to beat single coverage and be where he is supposed to be?


Same with a QB like Russel Wilson who has a 1600 yard rusher at RB, good weapons at WR, a good line with an elite LT, an elite defense, and the game always at a manageable score. Any QB is going to perform better in those situations then one Stafford was in for example. That doesn't mean Wilson isn't a very good QB at all, but it matters. That's why a bunch of people feel Schaub would fold if he was on a bad team but as of now the play-action sucks everyone up because of Arian Foster and Andre Johnson can still beat almost anyone.


We also as a whole need to pick a side on the whole "QB needs help argument". We've beaten that horse to death for Bradford, but if the WR is too good like Calvin we hold it against Stafford and talk about how much he helps him and makes his stats improve. Well no ****. You can't have it both ways. Good players help those around them, that's why I think guys with very little supporting cast is more impressive then those with a great supporting cast even though the numbers may not always suggest it.
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Old 07-16-2013, 11:25 AM    (permalink
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I think you hit the nail on the head when looking at the entire situation...BUT I dont really find it more impressive if a player has no supporting cast and still puts up numbers because take Cam Newton for instance.... he has a supporting cast, whether they are actually good is a different argument. He has a very talented WR, TE, a couple very good Olinemen and 2 capable running backs. All of these players have been proven players and yet his teams is always down and thus like stafford is having to throw a ton, and just like stafford has turnovers due to him trying to force it to certain players and these turnovers are coming during crunch time, during the panthers trying to make a comeback.

I think a team like the saints and how they throw the ball like 80% of the time is a huge reason for Drew Brees' numbers, but the difference in the saints and lions or panthers is that Brees keeps building a lead and even if it is a shootout he isnt turning the ball over like Stafford and Newton, thus his team is always in the game.


The big difference is not supporting cast because for awhile pre-Graham Drew Brees was just like Stafford and only really had Colston that people knew about... THE DIFFERENCE IS DECISION MAKING, you can only help your team if your team has the ball if you are fumbling or throwing INTs that does nothing but hurt your team.

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Old 07-16-2013, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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I've seen you make this argument a few times here and you absolutely can hold certain situations against QB's, unless you think all QB's are created equal. You just can't look at the stats, or wins/losses, and don't take any of the situation into consideration.


For instance with Stafford, his large number of attempts and being behind a lot has a bunch to do with his yardage totals, but the situation he is in also accounts for a large number of turnovers. If you put a QB on a team with a terrible offensive line, no RB to move the chains, a bad defense, and a bunch of make shift WR's around the best WR what should you expect? A bunch of turnovers and forcing the ball to Calvin. Especially when most of those games they were down by 2-3 scores quick. Or should he trust Mike Thomas to beat single coverage and be where he is supposed to be?


Same with a QB like Russel Wilson who has a 1600 yard rusher at RB, good weapons at WR, a good line with an elite LT, an elite defense, and the game always at a manageable score. Any QB is going to perform better in those situations then one Stafford was in for example. That doesn't mean Wilson isn't a very good QB at all, but it matters. That's why a bunch of people feel Schaub would fold if he was on a bad team but as of now the play-action sucks everyone up because of Arian Foster and Andre Johnson can still beat almost anyone.


We also as a whole need to pick a side on the whole "QB needs help argument". We've beaten that horse to death for Bradford, but if the WR is too good like Calvin we hold it against Stafford and talk about how much he helps him and makes his stats improve. Well no ****. You can't have it both ways. Good players help those around them, that's why I think guys with very little supporting cast is more impressive then those with a great supporting cast even though the numbers may not always suggest it.
It's a chicken or egg thing.

Does a great QB make the situation great or does the situation dictate if that QB can win. It works both ways.

I'm clearly more on the side that the QB commands his own situation to be what it is, and that the ultimate and frankly ONLY goal is winning games. Thus, downgrading someone because he HAS good players (I'd argue HE himself is the main reason WHY those players are in a position to be considered good) is unfair.

But your point about Schaub is a pure hypothetical. He would fold if he were on a different team. That is impossible to prove. Again, what is he supposed to do to prove himself to people who argue against QBs in good situations? Ask to toss it around when they don't have to? Ask his good teammates to get hurt? The goal is to win with what you have. He does that.
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Old 07-18-2013, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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Matthew Icicle #5 ?

He did flip to being better on the road in 2012, we'll have to wait and see if that better play is more than of trend. But when your strength of schedule is an abysmal .422 you should be beating down inferior teams wherever.
They only missed playing 3 of the worst 11 point allowing defenses in 2012.

The 1 regular season D that was great was Denver and they were handed that game anyhow when Manning and Co. turned it over 4 times.

Do get some credit for playoffs performances but partial credit cause the games were mixed bags and they were both home games.
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Old 07-18-2013, 01:59 PM    (permalink
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  1. Aaron Rodgers
  2. Peyton Manning
  3. Tom Brady
  4. Joe Flacco TOO HIGH
  5. Eli Manning
  6. Drew Brees TOO LOW
  7. Matt Ryan
  8. Ben Roethlisberger
  9. Andrew Luck
  10. Colin Kaepernick
  11. Russell Wilson
  12. Tony Romo
  13. Robert Griffin III
  14. Jay Cutler
  15. Matthew Stafford
  16. Cam Newton
  17. Andy Dalton TOO HIGH
  18. Matt Schaub
  19. Christian Ponder
  20. Alex Smith TOO LOW
  21. Philip Rivers much TOO LOW
  22. Sam Bradford
  23. Josh Freeman
  24. Ryan Tannehill
  25. Carson Palmer
  26. Mark Sanchez
  27. Jake Locker TOO HIGH
  28. Michael Vick TOO LOW
  29. Brandon Weeden
  30. E.J. Manuel
  31. Blaine Gabbert
  32. Matt Flynn TOO LOW (in 2 starts, he's done more than 5 of those guys)
My changes above
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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Flacco- This ranking is based more on what I think will happen in 2013. There has been a lot of talk about the Ravens getting worse this offseason. I personally disagree. I think Flacco steps up to become the undisputed leader of a team that is even better than last year. Will they repeat? I don't know (though I am betting on them because they have about 30-1 odds).

Brees- Great player no doubt. But he throws too many interceptions for my liking and last year he rubbed me the wrong way. He didn't fill the leadership void caused by Payton's suspension as the team at points was too out of sorts.

Dalton- He gets too much crap. When was the last time the Bengals went to the playoffs two seasons in a row? 1981 & 1982. That is also the last time they had consecutive winning seasons. Will he ever be a star? Doubtful. But He is at least an average starter, which is what I believe 17 corresponds to.

Smith- He is the definition of average. The Chiefs will be looking for a new QB in the next few years. Who would he jump, Ponder or Dalton? Just the fact that they are younger whereas Smith has peaked gives them the advantage.

Rivers- Meh, he probably should be higher. But maybe his early career is a product of the talent surrounding him. The Chargers were widely regarded as the most talented team in the NFL a few years.

Locker- These bottom QBs are basically a toss up. Locker hasn't been good but he is younger than guys like Weeden and Vick so he at least has a chance to become something.

Vick- He is garbage. He is an injury prone, turnover prone QB with terrible accuracy. And thruthfully, he has alwasy been that.

Flynn- He hasn't done dick in this league. Flynn put up huge numbers against a piss poor detroit defense. His former offensive coordinator didn't want him, he got beat out by a 3rd round pick, and he will probably be benched before this season is over. He is a career backup and even putting him on this list is generous.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 07-18-2013, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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Dalton is really a great fit for Jay Gruden. I was hoping for that match predraft and it was a great pick for the Bengals. I don't think Dalton will become a star, but I believe he could win a superbowl, especially if AJ Green stays around and they keep the roster talented. Green is so damn good for Dalton. I think Dalton can be a lower top 10 QB. He will clearly be better than like Matt Schaub.
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Old 07-18-2013, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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Dalton is really a great fit for Jay Gruden. I was hoping for that match predraft and it was a great pick for the Bengals. I don't think Dalton will become a star, but I believe he could win a superbowl, especially if AJ Green stays around and they keep the roster talented. Green is so damn good for Dalton. I think Dalton can be a lower top 10 QB. He will clearly be better than like Matt Schaub.
In my opinion, Dalton is a Schaub caliber player but 7 years younger. There was a point when Schaub was considered a top-ten QB and I see no reason why Dalton can't do the same.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:23 AM    (permalink
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Well then if that's the case then Cutler has been one of the worst in the NFL at elevating the play of players around him during his tenure with the Bears. Also, in that vacuum Cutler has failed. He's led his teams to the playoffs once in 7 years, and oftentimes those teams' losses are the result of his ineptness of putting points on the board on offense. They lost 5 games where they scored 6, 10, 13, 14, and 17 points last season with Cutler in.
I disagree. I think he's elevated the play of a lot of his receivers.

It's just that they've been THAT bad. For a long time, his #1 receiver was a converted CB who STILL can't run more than one route after 8 years in the NFL. He had a good TE that he liked throwing to, but the OC was a "genius" who hates TEs, so he was always blocking. He hasn't had an
O line graded higher than 26th since coming to Chicago, and in three years they were in the bottom two.

Jay Cutler was a good QB who started looking average the second he was traded to a team that has traditionally been an offensive black hole. That's no coincidence.

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Old 07-19-2013, 07:50 AM    (permalink
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I like Jay. He's a victim of circumstance. How is he any different from Phillip Rivers? Both did great with great talent around them, both haven't done as good without great talent around them.

In fact, Cutler was significantly better with a talentless offense compared to Rivers. So if anything Cutler is at the very least better than Rivers.

I think we see a big year from Cutler this year as long as that OL can not suck completely.
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Old 07-19-2013, 07:54 AM    (permalink
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I love Cutler because of the way he plays behind that line. So many QB's would get destroyed, or not have the confidence to step up into the pocket and make any throws. Sam Bradford comes to mind. Jeffrey improving, Marty B at TE, and a slightly better line should give him room to improve quite a bit.


I give him a break because if you watched the Niners/Chicago Monday night game with Jason Campbell you realized what he was actually working with and as bad as the line was he makes them look much better. Any QB who has more time and a clearer pocket will make better decisions as a whole.
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Old 07-19-2013, 07:56 AM    (permalink
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His oline has been ROUGH, i think the biggest thing people use to knock cutler is he has lacked heroic moments. I feel like hes good for a game ending pick much more often then he is a game winning drive.

Also, his sloppy tendencies lead to a lot of 2-3-4 pick games, which needs to stop...but again, oline is SO bad they dont provide much help. Do they have any idea where kyle long is gonna play yet? If they plan on playing both long and carimi at guard they are gonna have the tallest guards in the league
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:01 AM    (permalink
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That SF game was just awful. That's when you really saw how terrible his OL was. Like my goodness, that was a college OL going against an NFL defense. It was brutal.

How many times do we see Cutler get lit up every game? 5? 6? The guy has made chicken salad out of chicken **** his entire time there. And this year he'll have weapons so as long as the OL holds up or sucks slightly less he should be fine.

It's not easy being a qb in Chicago. Let's also take that into account. The last time they had a qb it was like wwII.
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:02 AM    (permalink
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His oline has been ROUGH, i think the biggest thing people use to knock cutler is he has lacked heroic moments. I feel like hes good for a game ending pick much more often then he is a game winning drive.

I can't really disagree with this, would like to see it more. Though the Seattle games sticks out to me as a game where he made some huge clutch plays at the end to put it into OT, so I know he has the talent to do so.
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:03 AM    (permalink
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IMO Cutlers bad teammates have been the perfect excuse to mask the fact that he's not a good QB. He'll get sacked and then on the next play he'll make an amazing play that'll make you say, "Imagine if this guy had a great supporting cast". This completely makes you forget that on the last 3 drives he had three and outs, where he threw high, into congested spaces, and looked erratic. He's not a tempo QB who gets into a rhythm consistently and who can manufacture offense when things aren't working correctly. He has never scored points consistently, or not turned the ball over at an above average rate. He had 1 good season in Denver where he was essentially Stafford from last year, and that's who we say Cutler could BECOME if he had a perfect supporting cast. 23 PPG and turning the ball over well above the norm.

To me Cutler is solidly in the bottom half of QB's. His game is so flawed 8 years in, and he's essentially produced like Ryan Fitzpatrick. Cutler is pretty much JAG with damn impressive tools.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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Cutler's problem is he never really looks off defenders. He just fits it in there baby.

Love Cutler.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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Brees- Great player no doubt. But he throws too many interceptions for my liking and last year he rubbed me the wrong way. He didn't fill the leadership void caused by Payton's suspension as the team at points was too out of sorts.
so you are saying it was Brees' fault that the saints fielded the worst defense in NFL history measured by yardage
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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Jaws just put Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco ahead of Drew Brees. He's trolling.
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The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:41 PM    (permalink
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whats the updated list?
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