Draft Countdown Forums

Go Back   Draft Countdown Forums > Draft Countdown Forums > Pro Football

Pro Football Discuss professional football.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-20-2013, 02:35 PM    (permalink
Brothgar
Team Leader
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 11,353
Reputation: 2502635
Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
Yeah, I think this kinda has a problem: They changed the rules, it's way easier to stockpile passing yards and touchdowns nowadays than it was in the 70s or 80s or 90s. But definitely cool, good work.
But the method accounts for that. The method makes two comparisons. The first comparison is of a QB vs a QB in the same season IE 2007 Tom Brady vs 2007 average that is added to all the other years of Tom Brady vs the average for that season. So yes it is easier to rack up stats in 2012 for Matt Stafford but it is working with the same rule set as all the other QBs in the league. So the rule set is irrelevant because we are talking a percentage of the average of a given season. The actual highest scoring season was in the 70's where the player had 150% of the average yards/game.
__________________
Stafford Sig by touchdownrams the rest of the sig by Sig Master Bone Krusher Avy by King of all avys renji


DEATH NOTE MAFIA SIGNUP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
Brothgar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 09:32 PM    (permalink
Rosebud
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Enjoying a succulent peach
Posts: 10,596
Reputation: 2578670
Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

I really don't like the assumption that average is average. Because simply put it's not true. I understand it's the kind of thing you just have to do to put such a big statistical analysis out there, but Donovan McNabb is the perfect example of a guy who's career also coincided with the weakest point for the QB position since free agency became a thing. The average QB right now is much better, and the average QB in the 90s was much better than for Donovan's most dominant years. And as expected that shows up in the numbers as Donovan's DR is much higher than many superior passers.

Also not sure you picked the best stats but impressive effort none the less and definitely interesting to see.
__________________

BK

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
Rosebud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 09:47 PM    (permalink
Brothgar
Team Leader
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 11,353
Reputation: 2502635
Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
I really don't like the assumption that average is average. Because simply put it's not true. I understand it's the kind of thing you just have to do to put such a big statistical analysis out there, but Donovan McNabb is the perfect example of a guy who's career also coincided with the weakest point for the QB position since free agency became a thing. The average QB right now is much better, and the average QB in the 90s was much better than for Donovan's most dominant years. And as expected that shows up in the numbers as Donovan's DR is much higher than many superior passers.

Also not sure you picked the best stats but impressive effort none the less and definitely interesting to see.
Its a fair complaint but it is I think the only real stretch but without it we find ourselves in the same trap in where we are fully unable to compare different generations. Another very fair complaint is that it adjusts for injuries and not starting late in the season. Both really push a guy like McNabb much higher than he is suppose to be. But regardless of the system there will be people who are over and under rated. What I did find is that this is a much better system as a single season stat. A little preview of a future thread. Of the 29 QBs who won the MVP 23 of them were top 2 in DR.
__________________
Stafford Sig by touchdownrams the rest of the sig by Sig Master Bone Krusher Avy by King of all avys renji


DEATH NOTE MAFIA SIGNUP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
Brothgar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2013, 08:00 AM    (permalink
elway=goat
Rookie
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: phoenix, arizona
Posts: 184
Reputation: 33651
elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brothgar View Post
It also surprised me how statistically average John Elway was.
http://broncosstats.tripod.com/playe...lwayStats.html

This site is good, it has the break down of the pre/post westcoast play. Under the west coast (which most qb's run atleast a portion of now days, obviously) his numbers were considerbly better.

Were talking jumps of 6% completetion percentage, 500 yards, 8 more TD's and 4 less picks. He also took less sacks. That is a pretty significant jump, imagin if he had the luxory of playing in a westcoast offense his entire career. His numbers would be much closer to Marinos.
__________________
bill belichick quote:
stats are for losers. the final score is for winners.

"This one's for John" Pat Bowlen
elway=goat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2013, 08:09 AM    (permalink
Trogdor
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,571
Reputation: 1503744
Trogdor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Trogdor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Trogdor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Trogdor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Trogdor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Trogdor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Trogdor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Trogdor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Trogdor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Trogdor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Trogdor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Not true at all Elway...

He was statistically average even in his "stellar" years you highlighted. And pretty much every QB on the list would perform better with tweaks. Imagine some of the modern day QBs with better olines (Romo, Cutler, Arod) or how much better Manning would have been if he had a stellar RB his entire career, or if Brady had Moss/#1 WR his entire career.

Elway's best year in which he never fully replicated was 1993 with a 92.3 passer rating. TEN (!) QBs have career passer ratings greater than his best year (Rodgers, Young, Brady, Peyton Manning, Romo, Rivers, Brees, Warner, Roethlisberger, and Montana.

There have been more than 150 single season passer ratings greater than HIS BEST YEAR. Statistically Elway was never a top dog when it comes to all-time was he a great QB absolutely but he doesn't compare with the guys at the top of the list.
Trogdor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2013, 08:59 AM    (permalink
elway=goat
Rookie
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: phoenix, arizona
Posts: 184
Reputation: 33651
elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.elway=goat is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trogdor View Post
Not true at all Elway...

He was statistically average even in his "stellar" years you highlighted. And pretty much every QB on the list would perform better with tweaks. Imagine some of the modern day QBs with better olines (Romo, Cutler, Arod) or how much better Manning would have been if he had a stellar RB his entire career, or if Brady had Moss/#1 WR his entire career.

Elway's best year in which he never fully replicated was 1993 with a 92.3 passer rating. TEN (!) QBs have career passer ratings greater than his best year (Rodgers, Young, Brady, Peyton Manning, Romo, Rivers, Brees, Warner, Roethlisberger, and Montana.

There have been more than 150 single season passer ratings greater than HIS BEST YEAR. Statistically Elway was never a top dog when it comes to all-time was he a great QB absolutely but he doesn't compare with the guys at the top of the list.
Yeah and all but 3 have played in an era where it is significantly easier to throw the ball down
field. Look at Brees numbers prior to 04, or Mannings or Brady's. You need to take that into context. Young and Montano both had the luxory of playing in the westcoast offense their entire careers. Well Youngs entire "productive" part of his career.

Manning played with a Prime Marshal Faulk, and from a production standpoint a top 3 running back from 99-05. So essentially Manning had a top 3 back in football for 7-8 years. I am aware that James was injured in 02, and 03 he had down year coming back.

But the guy had 1 1800 total yard season, 3 2000+ total yard seasons. Including one with 2303 total yards, and 18 TD's so please spare me. All those QB's had consistantly better help around them than Elway did prior to 97. If you actually look at the rosters, and his "weapons" in the first 3 SB's it's mind boggling how they even got there.

Elways best season was 1987, it was the strike year. But he won MVP, and would of been statstically better had he played the full amount of games. I could only imagin what he would of put up in his prime in the WCO.

If you consider what he out up in the westcoast offense, and averaged it out thru his career he's looking at 56000 yards and 368 td's. Not exactly Marino, but Elway had Aaron Rodgers type of scrambling ability. He was just a different type of QB.
__________________
bill belichick quote:
stats are for losers. the final score is for winners.

"This one's for John" Pat Bowlen

Last edited by elway=goat : 07-23-2013 at 09:13 AM.
elway=goat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2013, 01:42 PM    (permalink
Brothgar
Team Leader
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 11,353
Reputation: 2502635
Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elway=goat View Post
Yeah and all but 3 have played in an era where it is significantly easier to throw the ball down
field.
This is completely irrelevant when we are discussing DR. As it is a season by season comparison to the average. Since it is easier for Peyton Manning to throw down the field it is just as easy based on the rule set for Alex Smith to throw down the field. This is one of the major and strongest points of DR.
__________________
Stafford Sig by touchdownrams the rest of the sig by Sig Master Bone Krusher Avy by King of all avys renji


DEATH NOTE MAFIA SIGNUP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
Brothgar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2013, 04:25 PM    (permalink
ViperVisor
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,466
Reputation: 753602
ViperVisor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ViperVisor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ViperVisor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ViperVisor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ViperVisor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ViperVisor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ViperVisor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ViperVisor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ViperVisor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ViperVisor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.ViperVisor is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

This is from a few years ago. Not me.

Quote:
Regular season only for now, 'cause I haven't done any post-season numbers yet. As some of you know, I took (in alphabetical order) *Brady, Elway, Favre, Manning, Marino, Montana, Warner & Young and I calculated the total NFL attempts, completions, yards, TDs and INTs of the top 28 NFL QBs (to be consistant) and then compared each QB's career numbers against the average numbers from each respective time span. For example, I compared Favre's numbers against the total numbers from 1992 to present.

I did this because there was a lot of "Greatest of all time" talk after the superbowl, and it's unfair to compare, say, Brady's numbers to Montana's numbers because the rules for covering WRs, hitting the QB, etc are so different. But it's fine to compare Elway's #'s to Marino's numbers because they played almost the exact same years in the NFL (Marino played 1 more). Here are how each QB's RELATIVE statistics rank AGAINST THE AVERAGE in terms of (1) Passer Rating (2) Completion Percentage & (3) Yards Per Attempt:

PASSER RATING:

1) Young: +16.788

2) Montana: +14.316

3) Manning: +9.827

4) Warner: +8.638

5) *Brady: +7.811

6) Marino: +6.388

7) Favre: +0.015

8) Elway: -0.007

COMPLETION PERCENTAGE:

1) Young: +6.200%

2) Montana: +6.068%

3) Warner: +4.527%

4) Manning: +3.637%

5) *Brady: +1.968%

6) Favre: +1.700%

7) Marino: +0.014%

8) Elway: +0.012%

YARDS PER ATTEMPT:

1) Steve Young: +0.881

2) Warner: +0.850

3) Manning: +0.538

4) Montana: +0.370

5) Marino: +0.214

6) *Brady: +0.209

7) Favre: +0.007

8) Elway: -0.031

There you have it. Keep in mind, I spent quite a bit of time staring at a computer screen adding numbers, so I suppose I may have added incorrectly by a TINY TINY margin for some of them. Or maybe I did it flawlessly. But I was extremely careful and double-checked a lot of my columns, so I'm confident that this information is correct.
__________________
ViperVisor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2013, 07:10 PM    (permalink
jth1331
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,705
Reputation: 68586
jth1331 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jth1331 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jth1331 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jth1331 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jth1331 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jth1331 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jth1331 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jth1331 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jth1331 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jth1331 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.jth1331 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

I think some people have way too much time on their hands.
jth1331 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2013, 10:02 PM    (permalink
Guru
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 221
Reputation: 78436
Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

RG3 led the NFL in YPA and YPR--Nothing anyone has ever done and set tons of records but is 74? I like the Marino at 1 tho. I didn't look at everything just skimmed. I think it's impossible to do what you're trying to do but nice attempt.
Guru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 07:39 PM    (permalink
Brothgar
Team Leader
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 11,353
Reputation: 2502635
Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brothgar is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guru View Post
RG3 led the NFL in YPA and YPR--Nothing anyone has ever done and set tons of records but is 74? I like the Marino at 1 tho. I didn't look at everything just skimmed. I think it's impossible to do what you're trying to do but nice attempt.
Its only one season and this is a career measurement. If his career ended tomorrow no one would say gee what a great career. As he continues his career that number will rise.
__________________
Stafford Sig by touchdownrams the rest of the sig by Sig Master Bone Krusher Avy by King of all avys renji


DEATH NOTE MAFIA SIGNUP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
Brothgar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 11:37 PM    (permalink
Guru
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 221
Reputation: 78436
Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Guru is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brothgar View Post
Its only one season and this is a career measurement. If his career ended tomorrow no one would say gee what a great career. As he continues his career that number will rise.
I thought it was a single season dominance ranking, but again just skimming.
Guru is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.