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Old 08-11-2013, 07:32 PM    (permalink
BallerT1215
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Originally Posted by mqtirishfan View Post
Look, bro. Your only argument for Griffey > Bonds is steroids, because Bonds absolutely crushed Griffey over the course of their careers. Bonds was bad in the field toward the end of his career, but so was Griffey. Griffey in the 2000s was a pathetic fielder. Meanwhile, Bonds was waaaaaaaay better than Griffey at hitting, and did it longer. Yes, Griffey was a better fielder than Bonds, which is why he played CF, while Bonds simply played great in LF. However, Bonds was on another level offensively.
He was on another level offensively? The final stats don't say that.
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Old 08-11-2013, 07:36 PM    (permalink
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And as much as some of you want to minimalize it "oh the roids is you're only argument". There is a reason why the clean players right now are so outspoken against it, and there is a reason why people like Braun and ARod,etc keep looking for the next hidden secret - because it helps.

So you want to ignore it and say f it - Bonds deserves the best player of our generation nod? GO THE **** AHEAD, but I'm not.

And I've said it before and I'll say it now - Bonds was a HOF before all the BS. He wasn't better than Griffey.
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Old 08-11-2013, 07:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BallerT1215 View Post
He was on another level offensively? The final stats don't say that.
wRC+:
Griffey- 131
Bonds- 173

wOBA:
Griffey- .384
Bonds- .435

fWAR:
Griffey- 77.4
Bonds- 164.1

OPS+:
Griffey- 136
Bonds- 182

oWAR:
Griffey- 83.8
Bonds- 142.7

I mean, come the **** on.
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Old 08-11-2013, 07:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BallerT1215 View Post
And as much as some of you want to minimalize it "oh the roids is you're only argument". There is a reason why the clean players right now are so outspoken against it, and there is a reason why people like Braun and ARod,etc keep looking for the next hidden secret - because it helps.

So you want to ignore it and say f it - Bonds deserves the best player of our generation nod? GO THE **** AHEAD, but I'm not.

And I've said it before and I'll say it now - Bonds was a HOF before all the BS. He wasn't better than Griffey.
Minus the stats I showed that he was? That was pre-roids Bonds, and he was better than Griffey at everything. He didn't hit as many homers, but he also hit in tougher parks and didn't have Edgar goddamn Martinez in the same lineup. And they THINK it helps, they don't actually know if it does help. There's no consistent evidence that shows that it does, look at Jesus Montero just as an example. He was linked to it and has tons of raw power without it, what did he do?

Bonds isn't just the best player of this generation, he's the best player of all time. It's the way it is. Griffey is simply a hall of famer.
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Old 08-11-2013, 07:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BallerT1215 View Post
And as much as some of you want to minimalize it "oh the roids is you're only argument". There is a reason why the clean players right now are so outspoken against it, and there is a reason why people like Braun and ARod,etc keep looking for the next hidden secret - because it helps.
your*

Also, many of those clean players aren't clean.

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Originally Posted by BallerT1215 View Post
So you want to ignore it and say f it - Bonds deserves the best player of our generation nod? GO THE **** AHEAD, but I'm not.
That's cool if you want to, but don't try and pretend that the numbers support your argument.

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Originally Posted by BallerT1215 View Post
And I've said it before and I'll say it now - Bonds was a HOF before all the BS. He wasn't better than Griffey.
Still not true. Even the Pittsburgh version of Bonds was better than Griffey.
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Old 08-11-2013, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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He didn't hit as many homers, but he also hit in tougher parks and didn't have Edgar goddamn Martinez in the same lineup.
What a stupid ******* argument. You act as though Bonds was playing with a bunch of scrubs. Bonilla and Kent were both very good hitters.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 08-11-2013, 07:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SickwithIt1010 View Post
What a stupid ******* argument. You act as though Bonds was playing with a bunch of scrubs. Bonilla and Kent were both very good hitters.
It was just a toss aside that wasn't necessary anyways, but Edgar is vastly superior to both.
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:04 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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Old 08-11-2013, 10:54 PM    (permalink
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I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.
The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 08-11-2013, 11:39 PM    (permalink
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Average Griffey Fan probably uses Gold Gloves and RBIs as markers for success. **** that guy.
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Old 08-11-2013, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by mqtirishfan View Post
Average Griffey Fan probably uses Gold Gloves and RBIs as markers for success. **** that guy.
Griffey was a better fielder than Bonds. If you're with Snowflake on that idea, then eat ****.
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Originally Posted by 49erNation85 View Post
I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 08-11-2013, 11:48 PM    (permalink
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Griffey was a better fielder than Bonds. If you're with Snowflake on that idea, then eat ****.
Well, yes. Brody doesn't disagree with that, though. He's just saying Bonds was a better LF over the course of his career than Griffey was a CF. That's true, but also misleading. Playing LF is much easier than CF, and Griffey probably would have been a much better LF than Bonds.

What we're both saying is that Bonds is far and away the better baseball player between the two. It's not even a contest.
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Old 08-11-2013, 11:52 PM    (permalink
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Well, yes. Brody doesn't disagree with that, though. He's just saying Bonds was a better LF over the course of his career than Griffey was a CF. That's true, but also misleading. Playing LF is much easier than CF, and Griffey probably would have been a much better LF than Bonds.

What we're both saying is that Bonds is far and away the better baseball player between the two. It's not even a contest.
He was a better hitter, yes I agree with that for sure. Bonds may go down as the best hitter ever. What he did on the back end of his career (roids or not) was ridonkulous.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:42 AM    (permalink
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Bonds in 2004

.362/.609/.812

Those numbers don't even look real. I mean, he had more home runs than strikeouts that year. Jesus ******* christ.
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:57 AM    (permalink
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Bonds in 2004

.362/.609/.812

Those numbers don't even look real. I mean, he had more home runs than strikeouts that year. Jesus ******* christ.
That actually isn't as rare as you seem to think.
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Old 08-12-2013, 01:00 AM    (permalink
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That actually isn't as rare as you seem to think.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/more-...an-strikeouts/

Only six to ever do it with more than 40 homers in a season.
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Old 08-12-2013, 01:41 AM    (permalink
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I'm staying out of your argument since I have too much bias, but just want to point out to anyone using gold gloves as a stat that Griffey had 10 and Bonds 8. Not much difference there.
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Old 08-12-2013, 01:46 AM    (permalink
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I'm staying out of your argument since I have too much bias, but just want to point out to anyone using gold gloves as a stat that Griffey had 10 and Bonds 8. Not much difference there.
That's 80%. That's not much difference in the same way that 762 is not much difference from 630
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Old 08-12-2013, 09:22 AM    (permalink
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I'm staying out of your argument since I have too much bias, but just want to point out to anyone using gold gloves as a stat that Griffey had 10 and Bonds 8. Not much difference there.
Gold Gloves are also ******* useless.
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Old 08-12-2013, 09:32 AM    (permalink
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I agree. I didn't bring them up though.
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Old 08-12-2013, 11:14 AM    (permalink
badgerbacker
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Minus the stats I showed that he was? That was pre-roids Bonds, and he was better than Griffey at everything. He didn't hit as many homers, but he also hit in tougher parks and didn't have Edgar goddamn Martinez in the same lineup. And they THINK it helps, they don't actually know if it does help. There's no consistent evidence that shows that it does, look at Jesus Montero just as an example. He was linked to it and has tons of raw power without it, what did he do?

Bonds isn't just the best player of this generation, he's the best player of all time. It's the way it is. Griffey is simply a hall of famer.
While I'm on your side that Bonds is unbelievable and probably better than Griffey (even without steroids) your stats are a little biased if you only look at the 90s because you're comparing a 25 year old Bonds against a 20 year old Griffey in 1990. A better argument might be what each did before they were 30 or in their first 10 years. I suspect Bonds probably still comes out on top, but it'd be a lot closer.

It certainly is interesting to think about how those two would have stacked up if Bonds had stayed clean and Griffey hadn't broken down. I suspect Griffey would have the HR and RBI numbers, but Bonds would have been better in most other aspects.
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Old 08-12-2013, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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As for the gold glove argument, gold gloves are given to superior hitters who occasionally make good plays. Bonds was way better in left than Griffey in center so Griffey has a bit of an advantage, but Bonds wrecks him in hitting and base-running so who cares.
How do you explain Darwin Barney getting Gold Gloves. He's borderline worthless at the plate. But Bonds was not better in left than Griffey was in Center. Griffey has a career .986 fielding percentage at CF while Bonds had a .984 fielding percentage at LF. So Griffey had a better fielding position at a harder position. How exactly was Bonds better at his position?

With all that said, Bonds was a better hitter than Griffey. But to me, Griffey was THE baseball player of my generation because of how great he was without the use of steroids.

There are a ton of "What if's" attached to Griffey. What if he never went to Cincinnati? Would he have stayed healthy? And what if he was just a little worse in the field? Maybe he wouldn't go all out and he would have stayed healthy. If he stays healthy those first 4 years in Cincinnati, he probably passes Aaron's career home run mark (maybe even passes Bonds) and he is in the conversation for greatest ever.
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Old 08-12-2013, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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How do you explain Darwin Barney getting Gold Gloves. He's borderline worthless at the plate. But Bonds was not better in left than Griffey was in Center. Griffey has a career .986 fielding percentage at CF while Bonds had a .984 fielding percentage at LF. So Griffey had a better fielding position at a harder position. How exactly was Bonds better at his position?

With all that said, Bonds was a better hitter than Griffey. But to me, Griffey was THE baseball player of my generation because of how great he was without the use of steroids.

There are a ton of "What if's" attached to Griffey. What if he never went to Cincinnati? Would he have stayed healthy? And what if he was just a little worse in the field? Maybe he wouldn't go all out and he would have stayed healthy. If he stays healthy those first 4 years in Cincinnati, he probably passes Aaron's career home run mark (maybe even passes Bonds) and he is in the conversation for greatest ever.
Did you seriously just use fielding percentage?
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Old 08-12-2013, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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While I'm on your side that Bonds is unbelievable and probably better than Griffey (even without steroids) your stats are a little biased if you only look at the 90s because you're comparing a 25 year old Bonds against a 20 year old Griffey in 1990. A better argument might be what each did before they were 30 or in their first 10 years. I suspect Bonds probably still comes out on top, but it'd be a lot closer.
Using ages 25-30, Griffey beats Bonds using traditional statistics. Using a per 162-game season.

Griffey: 177 hits, 29 2B, 3 3B, 52 HR, 141 RBI, 125 Runs, 0.288 Avg.
Bonds: 170 hits, 34 2B, 3 3B, 39 HR, 121 HR, 118, Runs, 0.307 Avg.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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