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Old 09-23-2013, 12:30 PM    (permalink
cgf (Rosebud)
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
That's cool, I didn't do that.
Backpedaling like a boss!
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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Seriously? This is what you're resorting to?

So I guess now every team who wins a SB must go 13-3, beat each team by 14 points or more in every game, and every qb has to carry a terrible defense, offense, and coaching staff and will everyone to victory himself for the SB to be relevant huh?

You're one of those guys?
Hahahaha......for all of your knowledge about certain things, the quickness with which you will resort to ad hominem and red herring arguments when you get upset is hilarious.

I never said the Giants didn't win those Superbowls. Obviously, they did, since it happened. What I'm saying, and what YOU agreed with, is that neither of those teams were particularly great, and the Giants have never been a particularly great franchise under Eli and Coughlin, so nobody should be terribly shocked that the wheels have come off what was honestly never a particularly strong car in the first place.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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Backpedaling like a boss!
Making up **** like a boss.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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Do you not see how terrible your arguments are?
Do you not see how you totally don't understand my argument because you're way too emotionally invested in a football team?
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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Backpedaling like a boss!
Not sure why I wasted my time reading this whole argument, but bf said that there was a lot of luck involved and bbd claimed that there is no element of luck. From a neutral party here (someone who hates the Bears and Giants equally) bf is right here. He was just pointing out the element of luck those otherwise-mediocre Giants teams had.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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Hahahaha......for all of your knowledge about certain things, the quickness with which you will resort to ad hominem and red herring arguments when you get upset is hilarious.

I never said the Giants didn't win those Superbowls. Obviously, they did, since it happened. What I'm saying, and what YOU agreed with, is that neither of those teams were particularly great, and the Giants have never been a particularly great franchise under Eli and Coughlin, so nobody should be terribly shocked that the wheels have come off what was honestly never a particularly strong car in the first place.
But see, I agree with all of this post. I won't argue with it, bc I've said it myself.

What I had a problem with is somehow saying that those 2 SB teams weren't good and using other seasons as evidence as such. That's just unfair especially in this era of football. There's so much turnover in the NFL that you have to judge teams as individual seasons. You can't in anyway correlate this season to what happened in 2011. 2 different teams. It's not comparable and no distinction can be made btw the 2 based on results from this year. That's just entirely unfair.

And the only reason why I say those teams weren't great was bc of their records. In the NFL now, you don't need to be great. You just have to be great at the right time, and that's what the Giants were both of those years. That's how most championships are won now.

So yes, the Giants teams weren't great either year, but they were the best team in the league at the right time and that's all that matters. It's a war of attrition sometimes.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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Not sure why I wasted my time reading this whole argument, but bf said that there was a lot of luck involved and bbd claimed that there is no element of luck. From a neutral party here (someone who hates the Bears and Giants equally) bf is right here. He was just pointing out the element of luck those otherwise-mediocre Giants teams had.
I think luck is relative. Bc I think every team who ever won a championship had some degree of luck that season. So to use it against the Giants but not against the other teams who won a championship is incredibly unfair.

Bc the 2010 Packers were lucky, the 2012 Ravens were lucky, the 2008 Steelers were lucky etc.

It's really the case for all recent SB teams so I don't see how you can include that into any argument against the Giants and use it as justification in anyway.

It makes no sense. And I'm also a firm believer that you make your own luck. The whole lucky argument is complicated in of itself and is a long winded argument for both sides.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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Hahahaha......for all of your knowledge about certain things, the quickness with which you will resort to ad hominem and red herring arguments when you get upset is hilarious.

I never said the Giants didn't win those Superbowls. Obviously, they did, since it happened. What I'm saying, and what YOU agreed with, is that neither of those teams were particularly great, and the Giants have never been a particularly great franchise under Eli and Coughlin, so nobody should be terribly shocked that the wheels have come off what was honestly never a particularly strong car in the first place.
This is an entirely fair point. Certain Giants fans (not BBD) had overinflated expectations of this team coming into the season. They lack talent on the defensive side of the ball, and it was unreasonable to expect Eli and that offense to produce on a Brees, Manning, Rodgers, Brady type level. This was a .500 type team from the beginning.

I think the same mentality their fans have is the same kind of mentality their team has. The expectation that things are just going to work out like they did in the past. They were never particularly great, sans a good 3-4 game stretch in 2011, and they're older and less talented now than they were then. Hence the struggling.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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What I had a problem with is somehow saying that those 2 SB teams weren't good.
They were good by the standards of an average NFL team. By the standards of a Superbowl team they were two of the worst.

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Using other seasons as evidence as such. That's just unfair especially in this era of football. There's so much turnover in the NFL that you have to judge teams as individual seasons. You can't in anyway correlate this season to what happened in 2011. 2 different teams. It's not comparable and no distinction can be made btw the 2 based on results from this year. That's just entirely unfair.
That's ridiculous. Most turnover from one season to the next is the bottom third of a roster. Is Eli still the QB? Is Coughlin still the coach? Are the same key players outside of those two basically the same? Yes. Obviously the teams are never exactly the same, but of course you can make comparisons, especially when the Giants have been more or less at the same level for the last 8 years, minus two insanely improbably playoff runs.

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And the only reason why I say those teams weren't great was bc of their records.
You say that like winning and losing is somehow not important.

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That's how most championships are won now.
We'll see. I'm assuming you're talking mostly about the 2012 Ravens, which I agree is a pretty strong comparison. That said, when Joe Flacco wins two Superbowl rings, we can't start talking about what a lucky SOB he is too.

Quote:
So yes, the Giants teams weren't great either year, but they were the best team in the league at the right time and that's all that matters. It's a war of attrition sometimes.
True story. That said, nobody should be surprised that their luck (and yes, that's luck) has run out.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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Not sure why I wasted my time reading this whole argument, but bf said that there was a lot of luck involved and bbd claimed that there is no element of luck. From a neutral party here (someone who hates the Bears and Giants equally) bf is right here. He was just pointing out the element of luck those otherwise-mediocre Giants teams had.
I'll seriously argue something with BBD because at least gets **** when he's level-headed. I dunno who the other guy is, but mostly I'll just mock him because nothing more is really worth anyone's time.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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I guess I just don't understand what the regular season has to do with the giants' post seasons where they were great, and far greater than other SB champs like the colts and Saints. *shrug*
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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I agree. Every team that wins a title had some luck along the way. I do think that the Giants were a bit more lucky in those years than your typical title winner though. Not that it's a bad thing, I would kill for the Vikings to have a ring and have people call them the worst SB winning team ever.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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I think the same mentality their fans have is the same kind of mentality their team has. The expectation that things are just going to work out like they did in the past. They were never particularly great, sans a good 3-4 game stretch in 2011, and they're older and less talented now than they were then. Hence the struggling.
And we have a winner.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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If the refs notice that the Tyree catch hits the ground, the better team wins that Owl. Just saying.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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Every team gets a certain amount of luck along the way to the SB. This argument really is worthless.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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The 2010 Packers and 2008 Steelers were just as lucky as the Giants and Ravens. This is a case of selective memory.

In fact, from 2007 (maybe even 2006) until now, you can pretty much say every SB team has been more "lucky than good"

The Giants, then the Steelers, then the Saints, then the Packers, then the Giants again, then the Ravens.

All were more lucky by good based on your definition of lucky.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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I guess I just don't understand what the regular season has to do with the giants' post seasons where they were great, and far greater than other SB champs like the colts and Saints. *shrug*
That 2007 team was not great, I actually think the 2011 team was far better. They repeatedly tried to hand the game to the Pats on a silver platter. Unfortunately the Pats couldn't stop tripping over themselves that game, and McDaniels didn't adjust to a damn thing.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:45 PM    (permalink
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While we are talking about lucky teams, I wanna bring up the 2009 Saints, but I can't talk about them in a level-headed manner and I'm in a pretty good mood thus far today.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:45 PM    (permalink
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I think this argument that BF and I are having does indirectly bring up an interesting debate:

Should we view the regular season and post season as 2 completely different entities or are they tied together?

Bc to me it's really 2 different seasons within the season. The regular season to me is merely a measuring stick to get into the real season: the tournament.

Winning more than you need to get into the tournament is just glory points to me. But someone else may look at it differently. Curious to know everyone's opinions on that.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I think this argument that BF and I are having does indirectly bring up an interesting debate:

Should we view the regular season and post season as 2 completely different entities or are they tied together?

Bc to me it's really 2 different seasons within the season. The regular season to me is merely a measuring stick to get into the real season: the tournament.

Winning more than you need to get into the tournament is just glory points to me. But someone else may look at it differently. Curious to know everyone's opinions on that.
Exactly. The regular season exists for the post season. You win in the regular season not for glory, but to get into the playoffs and position yourself to go on a run, anything more than that is just for kicks.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:47 PM    (permalink
prock
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I think this argument that BF and I are having does indirectly bring up an interesting debate:

Should we view the regular season and post season as 2 completely different entities or are they tied together?

Bc to me it's really 2 different seasons within the season. The regular season to me is merely a measuring stick to get into the real season: the tournament.

Winning more than you need to get into the tournament is just glory points to me. But someone else may look at it differently. Curious to know everyone's opinions on that.
I wouldn't call them glory points. I would call advantage points. You earn a first round bye, home field advantage, etc. You still have to execute and play ball in the post season, but you just earned advantages by being better in the regular season.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:49 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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I wouldn't call them glory points. I would call advantage points. You earn a first round bye, home field advantage, etc. You still have to execute and play ball in the post season, but you just earned advantages by being better in the regular season.
That brings up another issue: is the bye week really an advantage anymore? We've seen teams (the 2011 Packers) come out very flat out of the bye and wind up hurting them more than it helped them.

Most of the recent SB winning teams have not had the bye week. In a league that has so much parity and has become so dependent on momentum, is the bye week something that helps you or hurts you?

I honestly have no answer or opinion on that. I don't know. I can see the arguments for both sides and I don't know which way I would lean towards.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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That 2007 team was not great, I actually think the 2011 team was far better. They repeatedly tried to hand the game to the Pats on a silver platter. Unfortunately the Pats couldn't stop tripping over themselves that game, and McDaniels didn't adjust to a damn thing.
The main thing is I know Bearsfan argued otherwsie but the two teams very very different. Yes coach and QB were the same but I think there were only 9-11 players that were on both teams. Two totally different receiving corps.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't call them glory points. I would call advantage points. You earn a first round bye, home field advantage, etc. You still have to execute and play ball in the post season, but you just earned advantages by being better in the regular season.
But that's all about positioning yourself for the post season. Like the roadwarrior giants, those teams thrived on being the underdogs and going on the road where they could really embrace the us versus the world mentality that fueled them. So for them getting a bye and home field advantage would've positioned them worse, which is ultimately the purpose of the regular season.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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That brings up another issue: is the bye week really an advantage anymore? We've seen teams (the 2011 Packers) come out very flat out of the bye and wind up hurting them more than it helped them.

Most of the recent SB winning teams have not had the bye week. In a league that has so much parity and has become so dependent on momentum, is the bye week something that helps you or hurts you?

I honestly have no answer or opinion on that. I don't know. I can see the arguments for both sides and I don't know which way I would lean towards.
Good point. I can't say I am leaning one way or the other, either. I suppose it depends on the makeup of your team and your head coach.
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