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Old 04-26-2007, 08:30 AM    (permalink
Jughead10
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Any top 5 list without Shockey is a joke. He is roughly the third best TE in the league right now. No one but Gates and Gonzalez has matched his production over the last 3 years. This is on a team with a bunch of weapons and supposed "overrated to bad" QB.

And like was said before, Shockey borderline just dominates whoever he assigned to block these days. I'd say blocking is one of his more stronger suits these days. It wasn't 5 years ago but it is now since Coughlin came to town.

1. Gates
2. Gonzalez
3. Shockey
4. Heap
5a. Witten
5b. Crumpler

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Old 04-26-2007, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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I didn't look at anyone else's ranks and went straight to the reply.

Right now:

Gates
Gonzalez
Crumpler
Heap
Witten

With another solid year, Kellen Winslow could crack the list. I have him as a #6 because of injury issues and concerns.
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Old 04-26-2007, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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Shockey's blocking is better, but I don't see him as a dynamic weapon in the passing game anymore. He has become more pedestrian due to some dings and injuries and the offensive scheme. He is not what he was earlier in his career, which is fine. He's just not as dangerous as he used to be.
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Old 04-26-2007, 10:32 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bsaza2358 View Post
I didn't look at anyone else's ranks and went straight to the reply.

Right now:

Gates
Gonzalez
Crumpler
Heap
Witten

With another solid year, Kellen Winslow could crack the list. I have him as a #6 because of injury issues and concerns.
No love for Shockey or LJ Smith?
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Old 04-26-2007, 10:33 AM    (permalink
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LJ Smith is barely a passable blocker. He has gotten better, but he hasn't reached that elite level. I think that he's a top 10 TE, not a top 5. I watch a ton of Eagles games, and I love having LJ as a player. He is perfect for the Eagles' system, but he isn't one of the elite.
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Old 04-26-2007, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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I can't see how Shockey isn't as dangerous anymore. He basically has been doing the same thing for 5 years now. His TDs have actually increased drastically these last few years. If anything the addition of Plax has taken some catches way from Shockey, but I wouldn't say he is any less effective.
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Old 04-26-2007, 10:41 AM    (permalink
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I consider the other players on my particular list to be better all-around TE's than Shockey at this point. I would say Shockey is 6/7 right now with the potential greatness of Kellen Winslow II. Just my opinion.
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Old 04-26-2007, 10:48 AM    (permalink
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By the way. Big down year for Gates this year. He isn't even close to being an all around TE. He is just far and away the best receiving TE. However a lot of that had to do with Cameron and how they used him. Unless the new OC took some real good notes, I expect a Gates down year.
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Old 04-26-2007, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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Gates' blocking is actually underrated, IMO. Agree that Cameron had a big part in things. I don't like taking TE's in round 3-4 anyway, so that's not a problem for fantasy. Gates has to be on this list because he is far and away the most dominant receiving TE in the league, and he can also block decently.
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Old 04-26-2007, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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Good call on the down year for Gates. I like your train of thought there, Jug.
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Old 04-26-2007, 10:53 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jughead10 View Post
By the way. Big down year for Gates this year. He isn't even close to being an all around TE. He is just far and away the best receiving TE. However a lot of that had to do with Cameron and how they used him. Unless the new OC took some real good notes, I expect a Gates down year.
The new OC is Shelmon, the RB coach...but the new Head Coach is Norv Turner, who installed the offense that SD runs today...In fact when he was in SD, a lot of people called Cam "Norv Jr."...He'll be calling the plays, and I really wouldn't expect any kind of down year from Gates. True Gates' blocking isn't terrific, but the guy is still learning that part of the game, and has gotten better year after year at it...I wouldn't expect much of a down year though.
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Old 04-26-2007, 10:53 AM    (permalink
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Good call on the down year for Gates. I like your train of thought there, Jug.
He just doesn't have any top skills comparable to these other guys. He isn't as big, as strong, as fast, or even has as good of hands as most of these guys. But he still gets it done. And mostly because of the offensive minded Cameron.
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Old 04-26-2007, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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I think he has tremendous acceleration and because of his basketball background, excels at finding soft spots in a zone and using his body to shield defenders. His speed is actually excellent. With the average WR weapons in SD, Gates is often the #1 receiving weapon and has drawn coverage from CB's. He still puts up the numbers because of his skill set and the offensive playcalling.
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Old 04-26-2007, 10:56 AM    (permalink
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He just doesn't have any top skills comparable to these other guys. He isn't as big, as strong, as fast, or even has as good of hands as most of these guys. But he still gets it done. And mostly because of the offensive minded Cameron.
That's not true, He's 6-4 and 260 pounds so hes just as big, if not bigger then the other TE's. Strong? maybe not, but he's certainly not weak, and he's got plenty of speed to go with it...not as fast maybe as some of the other TE's but still fast. As far as hands, that's his best part of the game...It's hard finding clips on youtube anymore but just this year Gates bailed out Rivers on a lot of dicey throws that could have been intercepted, just watch the film on him....Call me a homer if you want, I can see how that might come across, but even though Norv has failed as head coach, I wouldn't expect anyone on the offense to take a step back.
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Old 04-26-2007, 10:57 AM    (permalink
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I think he has tremendous acceleration and because of his basketball background, excels at finding soft spots in a zone and using his body to shield defenders. His speed is actually excellent. With the average WR weapons in SD, Gates is often the #1 receiving weapon and has drawn coverage from CB's. He still puts up the numbers because of his skill set and the offensive playcalling.
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That's not true, He's 6-4 and 260 pounds so hes just as big, if not bigger then the other TE's. Strong? maybe not, but he's certainly not weak, and he's got plenty of speed to go with it...not as fast maybe as some of the other TE's but still fast. As far as hands, that's his best part of the game...It's hard finding clips on youtube anymore but just this year Gates bailed out Rivers on a lot of dicey throws that could have been intercepted, just watch the film on him....Call me a homer if you want, I can see how that might come across, but even though Norv has failed as head coach, I wouldn't expect anyone on the offense to take a step back.
Not a homer here, and we agree. You are not really off target at all.
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Old 04-26-2007, 10:58 AM    (permalink
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Not a homer here, and we agree. You are not really off target at all.
Alright, yeah just didn't know how it would come off and wanted to spare myself the homer talk haha...I can certianly see people saying Gates' isn't the all around best TE because of his blocking, but his skills as a receiver I don't think should be questioned.
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Old 04-26-2007, 10:58 AM    (permalink
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1-Gates
2-Gonzalez
3-Winslow
4-Crumpler
5-Heap
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Old 04-26-2007, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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Alright, yeah just didn't know how it would come off and wanted to spare myself the homer talk haha...I can certianly see people saying Gates' isn't the all around best TE because of his blocking, but his skills as a receiver I don't think should be questioned.
Gates is top 5 because his receiving skills and production to date have been epicly good. His blocking is also passable and underrated. When you look at overall value, you have to put him in the top 5. I agree that you can say he's not the best, but to disparage him to that degree is ludicrous.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:01 AM    (permalink
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I dunno, Gates isn't as tall or strong as guys like Shockey, Heap, and even Witten. He doesn't block as well as them. He isn't as fast as Winslow or Shockey or even Gonzalez. And in my opinion doesn't have better hands than Heap or Gonzalez.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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Gates is top 5 because his receiving skills and production to date have been epicly good. His blocking is also passable and underrated. When you look at overall value, you have to put him in the top 5. I agree that you can say he's not the best, but to disparage him to that degree is ludicrous.
Oh, yeah definitely...if his blocking conitinues to improve there shouldn't be any question on #1 though. Hell, it's not that bad to begin with.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:04 AM    (permalink
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Despite his "glaring" lack of overall tools, he still is the most productive TE in the league in receiving. Trust me, the more results you have, the more DC's will look to stop you. You could chalk up a few games of success to good coaching and a fluke, but 2.5 seasons? Absolutely not. Gates' acceleration off the line, intelligence, and use of his body make him a very dangerous weapon. If he was stoppable, defenses would have done it already, especially with the QB change and the lack of a serious outside WR threat.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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I think teams are really too worried about LT and that has something to with it as well. I still have Gates as the #1 TE overall in the league because of his insane production. I'm just saying his tools are not on par with some other guys in the leauge. Which I guess is almost a compliment because he is having great seasons anyway.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:07 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jughead10 View Post
I dunno, Gates isn't as tall or strong as guys like Shockey, Heap, and even Witten. He doesn't block as well as them. He isn't as fast as Winslow or Shockey or even Gonzalez. And in my opinion doesn't have better hands than Heap or Gonzalez.
Those guys are either the same height or 1 inch taller than Gates, so that's a pretty unfounded statement. Strength is questionable, Gates isn't week, but as far as speed I have to complain about that especially with Gonzalez. Speed is one of Gates' best attributes as a TE, next to his pass catching abilities. He goes up at the highest point and gets the ball every single time...very rarely, if ever have I seen him drop a remotely catchable ball...that's one of his strongest points it comes from the basketball background. Besides, on the field production should mean much more then measurables at the NFL level. Charlie Frye is taller then Brees, who would you rather have? Jerious Norwood is faster then Larry Johnson who would you rather have?
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:10 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jughead10 View Post
I think teams are really too worried about LT and that has something to with it as well. I still have Gates as the #1 TE overall in the league because of his insane production. I'm just saying his tools are not on par with some other guys in the leauge. Which I guess is almost a compliment because he is having great seasons anyway.
Maybe the tools that you are looking at aren't strong factors in actual TE production. The difference between 6'4" and 6'6" doesn't make a significant difference. Straight line speed doesn't mean as much as agility and body control. Hands aren't as big a deal when you have the body control, and your QB throws a good ball. Strength is relative and isn't that big a factor. Gates' production is unquestionable. You really can't argue against the numbers.
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Originally Posted by JK17 View Post
Those guys are either the same height or 1 inch taller than Gates, so that's a pretty unfounded statement. Strength is questionable, Gates isn't week, but as far as speed I have to complain about that especially with Gonzalez. Speed is one of Gates' best attributes as a TE, next to his pass catching abilities. He goes up at the highest point and gets the ball every single time...very rarely, if ever have I seen him drop a remotely catchable ball...that's one of his strongest points it comes from the basketball background. Besides, on the field production should mean much more then measurables at the NFL level. Charlie Frye is taller then Brees, who would you rather have? Jerious Norwood is faster then Larry Johnson who would you rather have?
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Originally Posted by bsaza2358 View Post
Maybe the tools that you are looking at aren't strong factors in actual TE production. The difference between 6'4" and 6'6" doesn't make a significant difference. Straight line speed doesn't mean as much as agility and body control. Hands aren't as big a deal when you have the body control, and your QB throws a good ball. Strength is relative and isn't that big a factor. Gates' production is unquestionable. You really can't argue against the numbers.
Great minds think alike...
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