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Old 04-26-2007, 11:11 AM    (permalink
Jughead10
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Originally Posted by JK17 View Post
Those guys are either the same height or 1 inch taller than Gates, so that's a pretty unfounded statement. Strength is questionable, Gates isn't week, but as far as speed I have to complain about that especially with Gonzalez. Speed is one of Gates' best attributes as a TE, next to his pass catching abilities. He goes up at the highest point and gets the ball every single time...very rarely, if ever have I seen him drop a remotely catchable ball...that's one of his strongest points it comes from the basketball background. Besides, on the field production should mean much more then measurables at the NFL level. Charlie Frye is taller then Brees, who would you rather have? Jerious Norwood is faster then Larry Johnson who would you rather have?
Height isn't the only factor. Combined with all those others I listed. I still have him #1 anyway. But the last questions you gave me or ridiculous logic. I could say who would you rather have Brady or Brees? Who would you rather have LT or Norwood. Those are individual cases.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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Fact is, if you put any of the top 7-8 TE's in the SD system, they'd put up pretty similar numbers. Coaching and the QB situation mean a lot. I think Gates is perfect for that system, but other TE's could do similar things, given the opportunities.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:16 AM    (permalink
Jughead10
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Maybe the tools that you are looking at aren't strong factors in actual TE production. The difference between 6'4" and 6'6" doesn't make a significant difference. Straight line speed doesn't mean as much as agility and body control. Hands aren't as big a deal when you have the body control, and your QB throws a good ball. Strength is relative and isn't that big a factor. Gates' production is unquestionable. You really can't argue against the numbers.
I'm not arguing against the numbers. Again I still have him #1. I'm just saying there could be a certain smoke and mirrors aspect to it and I would expect a down year without Cameron. All those tools do mean something though. There is a significant difference between 6'4" and 6'6" especially in the red zone. A to say strength isn't that big of a factor is a bit naive in my opinion especially when it comes to blocking which is Gates weakest point.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:17 AM    (permalink
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Height isn't the only factor. Combined with all those others I listed. I still have him #1 anyway. But the last questions you gave me or ridiculous logic. I could say who would you rather have Brady or Brees? Who would you rather have LT or Norwood. Those are individual cases.
True, I was just trying to emphasize that well like you said in this post Height doesn't really mean all that much. I just think that you're off on your other analysis on Gates, his speed is amazing for a TE, and his hands are at the top of the league.

I'll take back those comparisons I threw out at the end of my post, those don't really hold much weight in this conversation.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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I guess speed is where we disagree. I would never say his speed is amazing for a TE.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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Gates' weakness is more in the form of lack of experience due to his basketball background. I think he has come along quite nicely as a blocker. His rookie year, he couldn't block for anything. Now, he's on the field in most situations. His strength is fine. It is not god-like, but he escapes jams, makes tough plays, and he can block. 2 inches of height in the red zone is not that significant, IMO. When you include his body control and ability to shield himself to make catches, plus his leaping ability, Gates is just as effective as any other TE in the red zone. That's just a moot point.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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I'm not arguing against the numbers. Again I still have him #1. I'm just saying there could be a certain smoke and mirrors aspect to it and I would expect a down year without Cameron. All those tools do mean something though. There is a significant difference between 6'4" and 6'6" especially in the red zone. A to say strength isn't that big of a factor is a bit naive in my opinion especially when it comes to blocking which is Gates weakest point.
If the height makes that much of a difference in the redzone, I would be curious as to how Gates is such a dominant red zone threat then, considering its where he scores the bulk of his TDs from. And yes blocking is his weakest point, but its not a big a weakness as everyone thinks. As for the coaching I don't think there will be too great a differnece in Norv and Cameron, since Norv said he is keeping 85-90% the same system, but that is just my opinion, not much fact to support it.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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I guess speed is where we disagree. I would never say his speed is amazing for a TE.
Doesn't have to be. With his acceleration and recognition skills, plus the design of the offense, he gets downfield and makes plays. Any loss of a step in terms of speed is made up for in game speed, agility, and acceleration.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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But seriously, let's keep arguing about something we agree on...
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:23 AM    (permalink
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But seriously, let's keep arguing about something we agree on...
Eh, I'll argue anything right about now...things are going so slow...is the draft here yet or what?
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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Just read a few posts and want to say that clearly you don't watch Charger football if you think Cameron was the reason Gates had good years. Cameron was HUGELY criticized around SD for going away from Gates for long stretches of time. Also, realize that his down year is 71 catches for 924 yards and 9 TD's, oh yeah, on a team where the running back had 1800 rush yards, 350 receiving yards and 31 total TD's. Just chew on that. I predict he has a huge year this year with Norv Turner, who is a much better OC than Cam Cameron. Cam Cameron had the best RB, TE, and FB in the league, and an emerging receiver and QB to work with, honestly. Norv Turner will do some stuff with this offense, watch out.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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Norv has had similar situations in the past, and he hasn't done the job as the HC. His skills as the OC are unquestioned, but his game management and personnel deployment have been suspect.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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1. Gonzalez
2. Gates
3. Heap
4. Crumpler
5. Shockey, you just can't deny it, the man is a beast
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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1. Gates
2. Crumpler
3. Gonzalez
4. Heap
5. Shockey
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Old 04-26-2007, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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No love for Chris Cooley?
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Old 04-26-2007, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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No love for Chris Cooley?
Not in the Top 5 IMO, but still pretty dam good!
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Old 04-26-2007, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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Agree with ERU. Cooley is an intriguing talent. If he had put up better numbers in 2006, he might have gotten more consideration. I like the guy as a player a lot. He is more dangerous than people realize.
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Old 04-26-2007, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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Agree with ERU. Cooley is an intriguing talent. If he had put up better numbers in 2006, he might have gotten more consideration. I like the guy as a player a lot. He is more dangerous than people realize.
Cooley had a great '05 and a solid '06 I like him to, just out of the top 5...maybe top 8 IMO. Big steal/pickup for me in Fantasy football in '05 too, so I gotta respect the guy.
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Old 04-26-2007, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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1. Gonzalez
2. Gates
3. Witten
4. Heap
5. Winslow
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Old 04-26-2007, 03:41 PM    (permalink
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I didn't look at anyone else's ranks and went straight to the reply.

Right now:

Gates
Gonzalez
Crumpler
Heap
Witten

With another solid year, Kellen Winslow could crack the list. I have him as a #6 because of injury issues and concerns.
i really like this list. Gates and Gonzalez are still the toast of the league, Gates especially for his receiving threat (but still good all around) and Gonzo is amazing at his all around game.

Crumpler has been the consistent weapon for vick, while this may inflate his stats he still handles being the #1 receiving threat there. i dont know all that much about his blocking so i wont directly comment on that.

Heap i like mostly because im a homer, nothing more to say about that.

Witten i love. he is personally one of my favorite tight ends and if i was making a team i might choose him. he is a tough blocker and really seems to be compared to the tight ends of old.

others that were close-
Winslow:really dangerous and will go higher on list after he has more seasons under his belt.
Shockey:another great player but many people look to his injurys and really seem to knock him on that.
Cooley: really good but not quite top 5
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Old 04-26-2007, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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i dont want to sound like a GRF type homer here, but being a giants fan a can really only speak about shockey. i feel i cant really rip other guys w/o watching them every sunday. shockey's recieving stats went down b/c he had to stay on block to help out mr. headbutt. he's is a weapon who's versitile. plus it depends at top 5 at what skill? honestly, i cant think of another TE with better hair, more emotion/energy/insanity/, or who will run w/o his helmet on
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Old 04-26-2007, 04:15 PM    (permalink
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1.Bubba Franks


999. Everyone else





Lol just kidding
1) Antonio Gates
2) Tony Gonzalez
3) Alge Crumpler
4)Todd Heap, Jeremy Shockey, Jason Witten
5) Kellen Winslow
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Old 04-26-2007, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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Default Tight ends

1. Gates
2. Tony G
3. Heap
4. Crumpler
5. Shockey
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Old 04-26-2007, 05:00 PM    (permalink
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1.Bubba Franks


999. Everyone else





Lol just kidding
1) Antonio Gates
2) Tony Gonzalez
3) Alge Crumpler
4)Todd Heap, Jeremy Shockey, Jason Witten
5) Kellen Winslow
Why just because there white, huh? What's up with that. I see how you are.



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Old 04-26-2007, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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Gates then Gonzo then everyone else.
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