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Old 09-26-2013, 10:56 AM    (permalink
cgf (Rosebud)
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
i mean, any time traveler going into the past is an idiot. you can't *not* **** things up. step on a butterfly and suddenly nobody can spell properly anymore.
Unless the only reason we have written language is because of my future time traveling to the past.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:01 AM    (permalink
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WOAH NSFW THAT BRO
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Old 09-26-2013, 02:07 PM    (permalink
cgf (Rosebud)
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
but then screw it. my timeline already has writing. not screwing with me is more important than helping out other me's.
Do you have so little faith in yourself that you wouldn't do all that you can to bring together the efforts of all of the different you's out there?

Plus we may only learn to move through our own timeline, so not going back and birthing the written language could erase written language from the point where you don't go back in time...
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Old 09-26-2013, 04:31 PM    (permalink
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Look. You can't just remove big runs from a player's stats. You can't look at a player's average and think, "He gets five yards per carry with no long runs!- that means his team will get a first down every two times he runs the ball." Except it doesn't. Every single back who ever played could still, on a given play, get stuffed. It simply doesn't work the way you're making it out to. Barry Sanders ability affected the way defenses played his team, and that's important. Regardless of who he might've had blocking for him, he was capable of taking one all the way to the endzone. Games are won when the clock hits zeros and one team has more points than the other. Barry Sanders could score. He made big plays for his offense and picked up a lot of yards. You can argue all you want that you'd rather have a back whose length-of-run were closer together - it's clear you'd rather have a back that ran for 4, 6, 4, 12, 2, 7 than a back who runs for -2, 3, 2, 5, 6, 80. That's fine. But you're just saying, in your mind, your dream team has Walter Payton on it instead of Barry Sanders. Nobody cares. You're comparing styles. You're failing at taking away anything from Barry Sanders greatness. And it is greatness. Nearly everyone who loves to watch football acknowledges that Barry Sanders was great. He was visibly great. It was obvious watching him. He wasn't perfect. No one is.

But your arguments are completely without a point. You're trying to come up with statistics that make one of the greatest running backs of all time look bad, because, since he's one of the greatest running backs of all time, you know that there will be plenty of people who want to argue with you and it's obvious that that's what you're really after. You even put in the time to come up with statistical lists meticulously modified to support your arguments to keep arguing with people. What's your ******* point? I mean, aside from "Barry Sanders wasn't good." We all know that's the lyric of the song that's skipping in your brain. It's just as easy to see that you have almost nothing to say that doesn't relate to a statistic. Barry Sanders was probably the hardest player to tackle in the open field of all time. That's how he is remembered. You like Alfred Morris. Go buy a Fathead.
I already said plenty before that doesn't have to do with a statistic, but then people brought out the stats. "Well, if you remove the 10-15% of Sanders's runs, the ones that went for losses, he averaged 6.4 yards/carry."

That thread I started long ago that morons like "The_Alex" keep referencing was titled, "Why I Would Never Want Barry Sanders On My Team." It was not titled, "Barry Sanders is talentless." Barry Sanders is the most talented runner to ever play football. My problem with him has nothing to do with his talent. It has to do with his running choices. His style excites people in highlight reels. It worked often enough to make the stat books say he was great in the surface numbers. But it had major drawbacks that require deeper examination.

Instead of acknowledging that, people make up excuses that contradict the video evidence. O-line scapegoating, QB blaming, 9, 10 man fronts. The guy freelanced, period. If you're willing to bash your head into a wall 10 times per game over him dancing when he shouldn't in exchange for 1 or 2 big runs, that's your prerogative. Just don't expect to have an elite offense.
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Old 09-26-2013, 04:44 PM    (permalink
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But what statistician says hey lets negate these critical successes they don't count of course they count.
They count, but they happened roughly 5% of the time. That means you can expect one approximately once every 20 carries. Where will it happen in 20 carries, you don't know. Could be 1st, 8th, or 20th. In the other 19, he's going to be one of the worst runners in the NFL. In the mean time, you could be throwing the football instead. You could even have another back who does better on the other 19 carries to open up the playbook/route combinations.

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Secondly I find it cute that you decided to go with 1995 of all years. You know one of his worst seasons.
It was an average season for him. He averaged worse than the 4.8 YPC in 1995 in 4 of his 10 seasons.

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You also fail to take into account that Sanders likely had significantly more 20+ and 40+ rushes than most of the other rushers in the league thus you are taking more attempts away from Sanders than the other RBs on your list.
Taking more attempts away helps him. I divided all the players' remaining yardage by their remaining attempts. It's a level playing field.

Sure, someone could say that Sanders suffers from not getting caught after 19 yards on those 16 20+ yard runs, but then we wouldn't be here in the first place. What moved Sanders up to and ahead of everyone else, average-wise, was the rare spectacular run.
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Old 09-26-2013, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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The drawbacks of his running style just weren't that major in everyone elses eyes. Even every good consistent runner has a couple of no gain runs or negative plays a game. Sanders ability to create explosive plays outweighs his dancing and negative runs. Its as simple as that.

In my opinion an offense that can produce a couple big explosive plays for scores a game is more valuable than a consistent long drive one. The talent required to run consistent long drives is too rare now days.
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Old 09-26-2013, 04:54 PM    (permalink
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So I decided ot look into the stats a bit more. Barry Sanders had 336 negative carries, 3062 career carries, and 153 games. That averages out to a negative carry on 10.97% of his carries and 2.196 per game.

How does that compare to the best running back in the game today? I just looked at the first 6 games of last year for Adrian Peterson. I could look at more but I don't care enough. In those 6 games, he had 17 negative carries (2.83 per game) on 113 carries (15.04%).

So on this small scale, Sanders actaully averages 0.637 negative carries less per game and 4.07% less total. So if you don't like Sander, you don't like Peterson. But maybe you don't since he wasn't on your list (despite DeAngelo Williams is).
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 09-26-2013, 05:00 PM    (permalink
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Why do teams even run if they get more yards throwing WHY DO THEY EVEN RUN THE BALL.
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Old 09-26-2013, 05:02 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, I've been trying to figure that out for the past few pages.
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Old 09-26-2013, 05:09 PM    (permalink
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This need to be reposted over and over again.
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Old 09-26-2013, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
but i've already got it, and if it did happen to erase it, i wouldn't remember that i'd ever had it to lose it.

also, jet li showed us all what happens when we go hunting for ourselves in alternate timelines.
Just because your not aware of how ****** you/things are, doesn't mean you/things aren't ******. I'd rather things just not get ****** than not know that they're ******.

I need to see more Jet Li movies. :-/
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Old 09-26-2013, 05:18 PM    (permalink
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Oh my god, that pepperoni.
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Old 09-26-2013, 05:38 PM    (permalink
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Oh my god, that pepperoni.
Really? Out of all things in that post, it was the pepperoni pizza that got you going...?
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Old 09-26-2013, 06:07 PM    (permalink
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Here are the negative rush stats for the entire NFL in 2012

Carries- 13,925
Negative Rushes- 1332
Percentage- 9.56
Per Game- 2.6

So Sanders had a slightly higher percentage (10.97%) but fewer per game (2.196) than the average bad today.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 09-26-2013, 06:09 PM    (permalink
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Here are the negative rush stats for the entire NFL in 2012

Carries- 13,925
Negative Rushes- 1332
Percentage- 9.56
Per Game- 2.6

So Sanders had a slightly higher percentage (10.97%) but fewer per game (2.196) than the average bad today.
SEE! Proof that Sanders was rendered useless of his insanely high negative run %.
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Old 09-26-2013, 06:10 PM    (permalink
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i think you can read the wikipedia article about 'the one' and be far better off than actually trying to sit through it.



i like how they all become little cups of rendered fat. you have no idea how good lettuce tastes dipped in that stuff.
Yeah but they don't all suck, and gross...too gross.
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Old 09-26-2013, 06:34 PM    (permalink
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look, if you triple the effect of barry's negative runs, and remove his best runs, then divide his total yardage by his jersey number plus the number of votes he got for the heisman, it becomes suddenly clear that the lions would've been better off letting andre ware and rodney peete take turns throwing it deep to richard johnson and like, brett perriman, and playing mel gray at rb. the lions probably would've won 15 super bowls.
See now you're getting it
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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there probably was in the original version of the thread. i think we have like, 2 more pages in this one.

i mean, after all, adolf would've been a better, more productive runner than sanders.
You're doing it wrong.

nobody in the history of the world has ever been upset about how many jews per-capita hitler killed. ever. who would be worried about a damn microstatistic like that?
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:15 PM    (permalink
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So Taber, here is a scenario for you. You have $10,000 to invest. Who do you choose?

Investor A: Invests in 50 stocks. 48 of those stocks make money. At the end of 10 years, you now have $50,000.

Investor B: Invests in 50 stocks. Only 35 of those stocks make money. But five of those stocks make 10 times the money as the rest. At the end of 10 years, you have $75,000.

Are you going to choose investor A because more of his stocks gained money or are you going to take a few more losses to earn $25,000 more?
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:19 PM    (permalink
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Trick question. You put your money in an index fund.
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jrdrylie View Post
So I decided ot look into the stats a bit more. Barry Sanders had 336 negative carries, 3062 career carries, and 153 games. That averages out to a negative carry on 10.97% of his carries and 2.196 per game.

How does that compare to the best running back in the game today? I just looked at the first 6 games of last year for Adrian Peterson. I could look at more but I don't care enough. In those 6 games, he had 17 negative carries (2.83 per game) on 113 carries (15.04%).

So on this small scale, Sanders actaully averages 0.637 negative carries less per game and 4.07% less total. So if you don't like Sander, you don't like Peterson. But maybe you don't since he wasn't on your list (despite DeAngelo Williams is).
I'm not buying the 336 stat. I've seen his lost carry figures for both 1994 and 1996. In 1994, it was 51. In 1996, he had 50 carries for loss at the point in which a graphic was displayed in the season finale against the 49ers.

I'm pretty sure I remember a stat from a 1998 football preview saying he led the NFL in carries for loss in 1997, too.

When healthy, Maurice Jones-Drew would be my top ranked back.
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:25 PM    (permalink
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So Taber, here is a scenario for you. You have $10,000 to invest. Who do you choose?

Investor A: Invests in 50 stocks. 48 of those stocks make money. At the end of 10 years, you now have $50,000.

Investor B: Invests in 50 stocks. Only 35 of those stocks make money. But five of those stocks make 10 times the money as the rest. At the end of 10 years, you have $75,000.

Are you going to choose investor A because more of his stocks gained money or are you going to take a few more losses to earn $25,000 more?
Let's not be crass. He'd have to watch the tape of each investor in action before he could choose between them.
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:26 PM    (permalink
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Taber would probably leave it all in Government Securities like many of my coworkers do. Who cares if my 401K is nearly 3 times as large as yours, at least it never loses money!
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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I'm not buying the 336 stat. I've seen his lost carry figures for both 1994 and 1996. In 1994, it was 51. In 1996, he had 50 carries for loss at the point in which a graphic was displayed in the season finale against the 49ers.

I'm pretty sure I remember a stat from a 1998 football preview saying he led the NFL in carries for loss in 1997, too.

When healthy, Maurice Jones-Drew would be my top ranked back.
336 is the official record. You can Google it.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:35 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jrdrylie View Post
So Taber, here is a scenario for you. You have $10,000 to invest. Who do you choose?

Investor A: Invests in 50 stocks. 48 of those stocks make money. At the end of 10 years, you now have $50,000.

Investor B: Invests in 50 stocks. Only 35 of those stocks make money. But five of those stocks make 10 times the money as the rest. At the end of 10 years, you have $75,000.

Are you going to choose investor A because more of his stocks gained money or are you going to take a few more losses to earn $25,000 more?
When do I need the money by?

If Barry Sanders got to take his cumulative yards with him and use them somewhere, that would be different. But that's just not how football works.

There's also investor C, aka throwing the football. Invests in 50 stocks. Only 30 of those stocks make money. But those 30 stocks come to $90,000 in 10 years.

I'm going with that guy. And then in this case, investing a little bit in Investor A in conjunction with Investor C will make Investor C more effective, opening up the portfolio. But Investor B will keep screwing over Investor C if I invest with him, and telling me not to give up on him and put money in the hands of Investor C, because at any moment, he's going to strike it rich.

Investor B: "Hey, I'm just trying to get you rich, maaaaaaan. Don't worry, I know what I'm doing. That $400 gain wasn't worth it, I'm going to hit the jackpot one of these days. The problem is the economy is so bad. Worst economy in the league."
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