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Old 09-22-2013, 11:36 AM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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Originally Posted by BuddyCHRIST View Post
The LT position is so overrated, its wayyy more important to have a solid group up front than a great LT. Teams can scheme around that one on one matchup. The whole blindside idea is kind of silly, QB's have to sense pressure anyways, and its easier to throw moving away from blindside pressure than pressure on your face.

That said, with the new salary cap rules, I don't have a problem with any position besides K/P going in the top 10. You draft the guys you have rated the best. You can make arguments about relative value for every position that's not a QB and none of them are wrong, and not every team is going to take a QB in the top 10.
Yeah, last year's draft clearly indicates that teams don't consider LT the 2nd most important position on offense after the QB, that's why 3 LT went in the top 5.
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Old 09-22-2013, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, last year's draft clearly indicates that teams don't consider LT the 2nd most important position on offense after the QB, that's why 3 LT went in the top 5.
Because clearly, teams are always making the right draft choices.

LT is probably the most difficult position to find because it requires rare size and athleticism. But its not the only important O-Line position its made out to be, and in today's NFL I don't think its any more important than any other O-Line position.

3 LT's went in the top 5 because there were very highly rated LT's in the past class. What I'm saying is its not the only O-Line position worth taking in the top 10 like it used to be, and its not worth reaching on less talented guys to fill.
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Old 09-22-2013, 10:59 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BuddyCHRIST View Post
Because clearly, teams are always making the right draft choices.

LT is probably the most difficult position to find because it requires rare size and athleticism. But its not the only important O-Line position its made out to be, and in today's NFL I don't think its any more important than any other O-Line position.

3 LT's went in the top 5 because there were very highly rated LT's in the past class. What I'm saying is its not the only O-Line position worth taking in the top 10 like it used to be, and its not worth reaching on less talented guys to fill.
Well, considering that both Warmack and Cooper carried higher overall ratings that the LT prospects but still were drafted later than the 3 LT's, pretty well disproves your thesis. If you go over the draft for the last 5 years or further, you'll find that top LT's always go before top OG's, RT's or OC's. It is obviously considered by every NFL team to be the 2nd most important offensive position in pro football. All you have to do is look at the draft year after year to prove this correct. Inside OLmen don't face elite pass rushers and if they happen to get one, the OC can double down on him while LT's consistently face elite pass rushers almost on a weekly basis.

QB's have no idea what is happening on their blind side and rely on their LT's to eliminate the elite pass rushers in the league. The NFL is almost strictly a passing league today with 500 to 700 hundred passes by a QB becoming the norm. This had made the LT position even more important than it was in the past and has increased team's desire to draft one, no matter how high a pick they have to use. The value of OG's and OC's has actually decreased in value with running the ball becoming a secondary issue.

The elimination of the money factor may see other OL positions get drafted higher, but as long as the NFL remains a passing league, protecting a QB's blindside will always remain a top priority and LT's will continue to get over drafted just like QB's are over drafted.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:48 AM    (permalink
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Beat me to it. This is only a problem if the player sucks in general. Unless somebody honestly believes that if Fisher was at LT somehow he wouldn't be getting beat? Going from LT to RT has nothing to do with it at all. Tyron played great on the right side at 20 years old because he's a good tackle, and honestly I have no problem with teams drafting franchise LT's and putting them at RT for a year before having to face the most elite pass rushers in the NFL.


These guys are just struggling right now period.
Smith played right tackle in college. Playing right tackle in the pros was his natural position. The question was: Can he play left tackle? He had the athletic ability to make you believe he could, but everything is backwards when switching from the left side to the right side. Matt Kalil owned the LT spot at USC. Once he was in the NFL Smith had a better rookie season than he did sophomore season. I think most of that has to do with the fact that Smith switched positions (sides). He wasn't as comfortable kick sliding to the right compared to kick sliding to left. It's like using your left hand when you're right handed. It's awkward and not as effective. There's a good reason why most corners play one side of the field the majority of the time. They're more comfortable on one side with their technique. It's that simple, but it makes a world of difference. Some guys adjust to it better than others.

I can tell from watching Fisher attempt to kick slide on that inside pass rush that he's simply not comfortable adjusting to his inside post leg. He's thinking too much and moving too slow in an attempt to control his technique. He's a natural left tackle. If I recall, I don't think he's ever played right tackle in his life. It's a big adjustment. And I think the Chiefs are just ******* up a good thing; and actually stunting his growth.


My immediate reaction after the Chiefs and Jaguars took two left tackles with the top two picks in the draft... To make them play right tackle:


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The Andry Reid Era in Kansas City Begins

I think with the #1 overall pick in the draft you can't screw it up. The Chiefs decided long ago that there wasn't a QB that was going to be worthy of the high selection / money / expectations of a #1 overall pick. They went out and got a solid veteran in Alex Smith to lead a talented Chiefs roster.

In a weak draft class at the top, most people might believe Kansas City picked the wrong year to have the worst record in the NFL. Well, I can't say I pity them when they took a great player and the best left tackle prospect (Eric Fisher) I have seen since Eugene Monroe. I would have Fisher sandwiched between Joe Thomas and Eugene Monroe as my three favorite left tackle prospects. If I like the player, the best player in this draft, then why do I feel like the Chiefs missed out?

My problem with Kansas City is that they didn't address the Branden Albert situation. Something has to be done. I'm not a believer in drafting a premier left tackle, who's most comfortable at left tackle, and then moving him to right tackle. It's almost a wasted pick, or a waste of time making Fisher play a different position. Is it going to be for one year? Are you going to sign Albert long term before the start of 2014? Are you going to franchise tag him again if Fisher struggles? Are you letting him walk after one season? I think Albert is a great pro and an underrated player, and someone I was extremely high on when coming out of college, but I feel like you are wasting Fisher on the right side. I think they should have traded Albert or done something with him. Figure it out long term. This pick and the way they handled the Albert situation seems very conservative. If Fisher ends up on the left side at some point in his career, I think he'll develop into a Joe Thomas type offensive tackle. But maybe I'm more confident in Fisher than the Chiefs are.


Jaguars and Gus Bradley Formatting the Seahawks Success

Their premier pick was Luke Joeckle with the second overall pick. I have a similar feeling as I do with Kansas City. You have an above average left tackle in Eugene Monroe, and you are going to stick Joeckle on the right side of the offense? It makes more sense when you watch Blaine Gabbert fold in the pocket like a complete vagina, so they need a clean pocket more than the Cheifs did, but I don't like the philosophy of moving a natural left tackle to the right side... Because you already have a really good left tackle!!! I just don't understand the philosophy. I think the Jaguars added a lot of talent, but using a Top 10 pick on a right tackle is costly. If there was a draft do it, it seems as though it was this one.

I don't mind if a talented team - that somehow manages to pick in the Top 10 like the Chiefs did last year - takes a left tackle in the Top 10, especially if it's a need. The Chiefs were a talented team picking in the top ten, but didn't have a need to take a left tackle, especially in the top ten. Instead they took one to force him to play the right side. That just doesn't make any sense. They didn't make a decision with Albert. They just put it on the back burner for another year.

But really bad teams - like the Jaguars - that are taking left tackles #2 overall is a complete waste of time. It's an even bigger waste of time to move them to the right side. I believe Joeckel started his college career at right tackle, but I could be wrong. The Jaguars took Monroe in the Top 10 when they were terrible. About 5 years later... They're doing the same thing. So how are they improving their team? Having really good offensive tackles doesn't win football games. The Jaguars are devoid of talent. It's like putting a premium running back behind a below average offensive line with no quarterback and hardly any receiving weapons. What's the point? It's why I don't mind the Browns getting rid of Trent Richardson. Get a QB. Get some talent up the middle before you even bother wasting a premium RB prospect behind a terrible offensive unit.

I think the Chiefs would have been in much better position if they added a Sheldon Richardson, Tavon Austin, or even Dee Milliner to their team. Those would be impact players. Not a right tackle. Outside of the quarterback, receivers, cornerbacks, pass rusher... Those are impact positions. Not right tackles who are better/natural at left tackle. The Chiefs didn't draft Eric Fisher. They drafted the watered-downed version with a bunch of question makes. The Jaguars? Same idea. They missed an opportunity.

Terrible teams have been drafting premier left tackles in the Top 10 for years now. Most teams don't address the rest of the line. They usually do what the Browns have done. Draft a Joe Thomas, eventually draft a good center, and then do nothing else, but shuffle in and out cast off prospects or aging free agents. It's a waste of time. A left tackle does not an elite offensive line make.

The 49ers drafted three first round players on the offensive line (two OTs, 1 OG) over a couple years (very short period of time). Spent another high pick on their other guard spot and picked up a good free agent center. If your going to spend high picks on a left tackle, or a right tackle you better be building the rest of the line. Otherwise it's a waste.



But look at some of the college left tackles drafted in the first round that have been drafted to be "left tackles of the future", but put on the right side during their rookie seasons for one reason or another.


2012 Draft

Riley Rieff - jury is out.

2011 Draft

Tyron Smith - (wasn't a college left tackle, but I'll note him anyway)
Nate Solder - Seems to be a solid pro
Gabe Carimi - bust
Derek Sherrod - injured, jury still out. Not promising.

2010 Draft

Bryan Bulaga - Jury is still out. Looked average at RT. Lot of injuries.

2009 Draft

Jason Smith - Major bust who couldn't play RT.
Andre Smith - Turned into a good RT, but couldn't play LT.
Michael Oher - Turned into a good RT, but struggled at LT.

2008 Draft

Chris Williams - Major bust who couldn't play RT or even OG.
Gosder Cherilus - Starting right tackle, average player.
Sam Baker - struggles at left tackle, but a starter.
Duan Brown - Day 1 starter turned All-Pro caliber player

2007 Draft

Levi Brown - Below average player
Joe Staley - Has turned into an All Pro

2005 NFL Draft

Alex Barron - Bad OT, pretty big disappointment.

2004 NFL Draft

Robert Gallery - obviously.


During that same time period here are first round round picks that won the left tackle starting job from the start of their rookie seasons:

Jake Long
Joe Thomas
Russell Okung
Trent Williams
Ryan Clady
Eugene Monroe
D'Brickashaw Ferguson
Jamaal Brown
Anthony Castanzo
Matt Kalil
Branden Albert (not a college OT, but I'll note him anyway)


For as many success stories of switching college left tackles to right tackle for a year or two, there are three times as many failures. I just hate the idea of switching natural left tackles and making them play positions they don't usually play. The guys who were drafted to be LTs and who started from Day 1 might have struggled for a year or two, but eventually all of them turned into above average players, most of them considered the best players at their position. Switching future LTs to right tackle has created a lot of busts and major disappointments. They're more susceptible to getting beat badly early in their careers, losing confidence and struggling with their technique.
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Old 09-23-2013, 01:10 AM    (permalink
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Michael Roos played RT as a rookie, and then switched over to LT for his sophomore season. I always thought it was a smart way of easing the player into the position. Let him become acclimated to the speed of the game while playing an easier and less vital position.

That's probably going on here.
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Old 09-23-2013, 01:53 AM    (permalink
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There's not many linemen capable of going from college to the pros and being dominant immediately. I've seen positives and negatives thus far with Fisher but he seems to be improving.
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:10 AM    (permalink
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Well, considering that both Warmack and Cooper carried higher overall ratings that the LT prospects but still were drafted later than the 3 LT's, pretty well disproves your thesis. If you go over the draft for the last 5 years or further, you'll find that top LT's always go before top OG's, RT's or OC's. It is obviously considered by every NFL team to be the 2nd most important offensive position in pro football. All you have to do is look at the draft year after year to prove this correct. Inside OLmen don't face elite pass rushers and if they happen to get one, the OC can double down on him while LT's consistently face elite pass rushers almost on a weekly basis.

QB's have no idea what is happening on their blind side and rely on their LT's to eliminate the elite pass rushers in the league. The NFL is almost strictly a passing league today with 500 to 700 hundred passes by a QB becoming the norm. This had made the LT position even more important than it was in the past and has increased team's desire to draft one, no matter how high a pick they have to use. The value of OG's and OC's has actually decreased in value with running the ball becoming a secondary issue.

The elimination of the money factor may see other OL positions get drafted higher, but as long as the NFL remains a passing league, protecting a QB's blindside will always remain a top priority and LT's will continue to get over drafted just like QB's are over drafted.
Carried higher overall ratings? Says who? This isn't Madden, its all subjective. LT's get pushed up the boards more because they are harder to find. The whole idea of a LT "eliminating" a pass rusher is a joke, almost all teams use TE's and RB's to help against an elite player. My point is a great LT/average LT has very little overall effect on your offense. You can scheme around these things, bring blitzes, move pass rushers around. It certainly helps to have a good LT, but having a solid, coherent group is way more important. LT's will always be the most valued because you pretty much have to find a guy who is 6'5" 300+ with long arms and quick feet, but the effect on a team is overrated.
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:26 AM    (permalink
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Will Seantrel Henderson make the move from RT to LT at the next level?
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:39 AM    (permalink
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Will Seantrel Henderson make the move from RT to LT at the next level?
No........
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Old 09-28-2013, 01:27 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, last year's draft clearly indicates that teams don't consider LT the 2nd most important position on offense after the QB, that's why 3 LT went in the top 5.
And were immediately converted to RT...

And it's a stupid exercise, as illustrated by BigBanger. And it being a stupid exercise goes way back - it's not a recent thing. Take Jon Tait, for instance. Considered a pretty high caliber LT coming out of Michigan, played really well at RT for the Chiefs (one of the few that succeed when switched), and then completely flopped when he left KC because he wanted to be an LT.
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Old 09-28-2013, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...es-overvalued/

I'm not always someone who thinks PFF numbers/grades are the be all end all, but I have talked with Steve about this and really have been watching defenses in the NFL more closely this season. I think RT just as important as LT as more teams are putting elite pass rushers on that side.
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