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Old 09-28-2013, 11:04 PM    (permalink
fredder
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Good prospect, but the more you watch him the more you realize he's being overrated.

Still a top 5 talent in the 2014 draft, but he's nowhere near the level of player Nick Fairley or Ndamukong Suh were when they came out.

Too often Clowney looks like a great athlete playing football and not really a beast FOOTBALL player.

Being disruptive to me is not the same as being a dominant player.

Clowney is disruptive because he's big, fast and strong. But I don't see any exceptional playmaking ability.

He's one of those guys you can imagine will be a much better pro than collegian.

IMO Clowney is no better a pro prospect than Julius Peppers or Mario Williams.
I know, there's nothing wrong with that.
But the buzz around this guy before the season started was that Clowney was a significantly better pro prospect than those two.
I agree that he's not quite the prospect the media made him out to be in the offseason, but really who is? I don't remember people claiming he was significantly better than Peppers and Williams though. Usually he was described as the best DE prospect since Peppers.

I don't agree with the part about him being an athlete that's playing football though. The guy is actually a pretty polished pass rusher. He has a deep set of moves and can beat guys with finesse or power.
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Old 09-29-2013, 02:50 AM    (permalink
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I don't know if people really remember Mario Williams and his lack of production during his last season at NC State. He was pretty blatantly not putting in any effort until the end of the season when the talk became so overwhelming - media has changed a lot from now compared to back then; where it takes seven defensive plays before the twitter universe is going bonkers over a hyped-up DE prospect. Everyone wants to be the first to label him overrated or a future bust, or the next JaMarcus Russell type failure.

But Mario Williams hardly ever showed the explosiveness Clowney has. Williams seemed to get engaged with a linemen and then just hold onto him. It was almost difficult to try to defend Williams' lack of production. He was completely disappearing in games. And he wasn't facing nearly the same amount of attention Clowney currently is. His motor became a legitimate concern because Williams wasn't the type of player that could simply run around OTs consistently. He could speed rush an OT, but he wasn't a Bruce Irvin / Brian Orakpo type that could do it at will. His speed and explosiveness wasn't something he could simply rely on. He needed to use power moves. He needed to use his hands to disengage from blockers. He relied on inside moves to set up his speed rush, which was just above average. Williams wasn't doing any of that in the first half of his final year in college.

Williams didn't have very good pass rushing technique to begin with. He dominated when he wanted to; on physical ability. Which is why he struggled early in his pro career. He would get punched in the chest / face a lot as a rookie. He got worked over by offensive tackles and looked like he was going to be a bust because he couldn't get close to the QB - I mean not even ******* close. Williams worked on his technique and became a very good pro, who is somehow now considered elite / worthy of a $100 million contract. I didn't consider him an elite prospect in college because of those concerns. And they were major. He should have been much more dominant that he was. He also had two other defensive linemen go in round 1 and another go in round 2. I thought Williams was a Top 5 or Top 10 prospect because he had too much boom or bust.

I think Clowney is different because he's much leaner and more athletic / quicker on the field. He can beat offensive tackles with a speed rush: quick off the snap, great burst and good balance / strength to get around the edge. It's his best move and it sets up his inside moves. That wasn't Mario Williams in college. Clowney's inside move gets him a lot of sacks and most of his pressures because offensive tackles are constantly worried about the speed rush. Clowney makes tackles defend the edge, which opens up pass rushing options. He can go inside, outside or collapse the pocket. Clowney has good strength and he likes to use the swim move to get inside offensive linemen, especially on run plays. He's hard to center - meaning, he beats tackles inside or outside with his quickness / suddenness. Offensive linemen don't get great blocks on him because of that. Again, not another strength of Mario Williams - that type of quickness. Williams was more of a power rusher who got around an offensive tackle (with speed) on occasion. He also defended the run with proper technique. Not simply going around / avoiding linemen (usually a knock on linebackers who don't like to take on blockers).

Clowney's strength is rushing the passer. It comes natural to him. You could see it since his freshman year. He has the instincts for it. He can simply get to the QB. I can't put it any better than that. He does play upright and a little too high too often, which may be due to fatigue. But he has success with it at the college level. He might struggle early in his career with his pad level and lack of technique, but I don't see it stopping him from becoming an All-Pro. He's not the run defender Williams showed he could be (or as powerful), but he's very solid in run defense.

This year, when I've seen him beat, it's because he's not keeping his run lanes or gap discipline. As the season has progressed I think he's feeling the pressure to make the splash plays (sacks, big hits, forced fumbles, hits ten yards in the backfield). A single play against Michigan turned him into a superstar despite having a fairly average game outside of that one single play. It's seems like he's pressing to produce, and it might be hurting his team defense. That's what I saw today against UCF. He was in the backfield, but UCF was gashing South Carolina through his unattended gaps.

Stamina issues and strength can be greatly improved at the NFL level. He has the frame to add weight. That shouldn't be an issue. It will come down to his work ethic. If he doesn't care, then he's never going to be great. I can't predict that and I won't pretend to. At the end of the day there's nothing in his game that worries me. Certainly nothing physically. He's seeing double teams and triple teams constantly. He's surrounded by a depleted defense that isn't what it was a year or two ago. When you become the focal point of a defense and no one is taking attention away form you, then it's going to be difficult to produce 16 sacks and 25 TFL. He's going to have to be patient and let the game come to him.

Is he elite? There's nothing he lacks. I'd like to see him use his length better. He never really extends his arms and benches off. He does a good job attacking angles, which comes back to instincts (instead of technique). Technicians in the NFL will be able to stuff those things by washing him down the line or shoving him past the quarterback if he simply attacks one shoulder of the offensive linemen. But that will come with better coaching and experience at the next level. Again, work ethic. Everything is there to be an All-Pro. He's still raw. People have to remember that. He is beating people on pure talent right now more often than not. He has room to improve.

I think right now he's overhyped. Not necessarily overrated. He's not a once in a lifetime type prospect. I don't think he makes the type of impact that Aldon Smith or Von Miller have had. Have I mentioned about JJ Watt? Those guys were drafted not too long ago. But Clowney is going to be very good. Is he elite? That depends on work ethic. Those guys have the physical ability coupled with the motor and the stamina. Clowney is special for this years draft. Not for all drafts where you have to go back decades to find someone even comparable to him. He's not a 34 OLB. He shouldn't switch to a 34 defensive end spot. He's too scheme specific. He's not a clear cut #1 pick. If there's two or three QBs who are worthy of going in the Top 5 - 10, then they take precedent over Clowney.

The NFL comes down to QB play. Pain and simple. Mario Williams hasn't been to a playoff game yet. A great defensive end does not an defensive line make. There's no reason to even have one great defensive end if you're going to surround him with mediocre defensive linemen. JPP was just as talented coming out of college. Just as big with just as much potential. He has struggled as the Giants defensive line has completely fell off the face of the earth. He wasn't drafted all that long ago. The only thing he lacked... Tape. Didn't play enough at the DI level. That's all. But you draft franchise changers with the #1 pick. That's a QB. That's the only position that will truly change a franchise. Clowney is a teams missing piece to get better on one side of the ball. The QB position is the 3/4 of the entire pie.

Clowney is an elite prospect. Not a rare one. Just elite for this years draft. He's worthy of going first overall. But not if there's a QB worthy of going in the Top 10.
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Old 09-29-2013, 03:14 AM    (permalink
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Mario wasn't regarded as a #1 type prospect until he blew up the combine. People thought of him as an athlete with a hot/cold motor, but never realized how special he was athletically until the testing.
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Old 09-29-2013, 04:55 AM    (permalink
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Agree with your post BB on Williams and Clowney.
Jadeveon does look to be a natural pass rusher; he's not some guy just running around wild at the snap. He still displays a great deal of technique on his pass rush and can attack an OT inside, outside or right through him.
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Old 09-29-2013, 06:48 AM    (permalink
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Not sure if serious. He basically made UCF have to play 10 on 11. Maybe I'm stupid but I thought he was the sole reason SC won.
Hardly. UCF made several unforced errors completely unrelated to Clowney.

Clowney's good, no doubt. Just he's overhyped right now.
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Old 09-29-2013, 10:41 AM    (permalink
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There's a lot of "box score scouting" going to right now with Clowney. I've seen only a handful of legitimate criticisms of his game. Most complaints are like "Only two sacks in four games? Lol, he's so overrated." It's not hard to see that teams are totally scheming around him, yet he's still making an impact. I only watched some of the UCF game, but I saw him force both sacks on Bortles. UCF did a lot to limit his impact by running away from him and throwing a lot of quick, short passes.
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Old 09-29-2013, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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There's a lot of "box score scouting" going to right now with Clowney. I've seen only a handful of legitimate criticisms of his game. Most complaints are like "Only two sacks in four games? Lol, he's so overrated." It's not hard to see that teams are totally scheming around him, yet he's still making an impact. I only watched some of the UCF game, but I saw him force both sacks on Bortles. UCF did a lot to limit his impact by running away from him and throwing a lot of quick, short passes.

No question your post is completely accurate here. Nice call.

Also, it's amazing how many times I see this guy suddenly come flying into the screen 15 yards downfield to get in on tackles that he should have no business being near. People can say what they want... even professional scouts.... but this is not the sign of a player who's loafing out there. It's just not.
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Old 09-29-2013, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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No question your post is completely accurate here. Nice call.

Also, it's amazing how many times I see this guy suddenly come flying into the screen 15 yards downfield to get in on tackles that he should have no business being near. People can say what they want... even professional scouts.... but this is not the sign of a player who's loafing out there. It's just not.
The main concern about his motor is that he takes plays off. He'll make hustle plays and will chase down runners across the field. However he also has plays where he gets pushed around in the run game and can go stretches without making an impact. It's not as bad as it looked after the North Carolina game, in which he had the flu, but it's still a legitimate concern. It's still not going to change the fact that he's an elite prospect and it could just be him trying not to get hurt or a lack of conditioning which could be fixed in the pros.
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Old 09-29-2013, 04:21 PM    (permalink
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The main concern about his motor is that he takes plays off. He'll make hustle plays and will chase down runners across the field. However he also has plays where he gets pushed around in the run game and can go stretches without making an impact. It's not as bad as it looked after the North Carolina game, in which he had the flu, but it's still a legitimate concern. It's still not going to change the fact that he's an elite prospect and it could just be him trying not to get hurt or a lack of conditioning which could be fixed in the pros.
I don't know of many defensive lineman that don't take plays off. It's rare if you watch one play in and play out and never see that.

Dominique Easley is the only one in college now that I can honestly say doesn't take a single a play off. J.J. Watt was another during his Wisconsin days and Marcell Dareus at Alabama.

Nick Fairley took entire quarters off during his time at Auburn, and 90% of this board had him over Dareus as a prospect (except me).

I don't think any of this motor talk is relevant with Clowney because I clearly see this kid making hustle plays. I think he wishes his coaches would be more creative and move him around a little so he can make more of an impact. Rather than lined up where offenses can simply scheme around him every snap at RDE.

Furthermore, he's playing with bone spurs in his foot which requires surgery. I have no idea how he's even doing that. But he's playing through it. I'll take him and any motor, desire, competitiveness, etc. questions that anyone can attach to him.
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Old 09-29-2013, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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Clowney is so good that the giants are obviously tanking to pair him with JPP and Moore.
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Old 09-30-2013, 01:22 AM    (permalink
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Julius Peppers rightly or wrongly is viewed as an underachiever throughout his pro career.

With his tools and measurables, you thought he was going to be a perennial All-Pro.
Peppers is a good player, he's not a great one. I don't know if he's ever been consistently great, season to season.

He won't sniff Canton either.

When I listen to the discussion about Clowney, people are expecting GREATNESS, not just 'good'.

Every team needs good players. Nothing wrong with being a good player.
There aren't enough truly good players on most rosters in the NFL.

Right now Clowney looks like a very physically gifted, good football player. However the NFL game is a different animal where it's all about schemes and matchups. I can't say definitively Clowney won't be great as a pro.

But I do know he's not a great college player yet.
Peppers has great years, sure there were times in carolina where he totally underachieved, as at one point Osi was a better and more productive DE, but as a giants fan who's team might miraculously have a shot at this kid, I'll **** a brick if we do get him and he ends up an exact clone of Julius Peppers.
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:14 AM    (permalink
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That's right Clowney. Keep falling. Fall all the way to the Giants.
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:17 AM    (permalink
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That's right Clowney. Keep falling. Fall all the way to the Giants.
The way they are playing that might only be to the #2 pick.
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:20 AM    (permalink
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The way they are playing that might only be to the #2 pick.
Honestly I'm ok with that. I don't want us to salvage a 8-8 season. That does nothing for us.

Suck hard and get a game changer. We need new blood on this team.
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Old 09-30-2013, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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Honestly I'm ok with that. I don't want us to salvage a 8-8 season. That does nothing for us.

Suck hard and get a game changer. We need new blood on this team.
I wish Dallas would give up this 7-9 to 9-7 crap and do the same.
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Old 09-30-2013, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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The way they are playing that might only be to the #2 pick.
Giants can't have it. raiders will hang onto the #2 pick for dear life. You saw how they snatched defeat from the faws of victory yesterday. Raiders will be as bad as it gets this season (with exception of Jags).
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Old 09-30-2013, 01:12 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Giants can't have it. raiders will hang onto the #2 pick for dear life. You saw how they snatched defeat from the faws of victory yesterday. Raiders will be as bad as it gets this season (with exception of Jags).
But chances are you guys take a qb with that pick (I hope).
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Old 09-30-2013, 05:45 PM    (permalink
cgf (Rosebud)
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Yeah, my big hope is that there are 2 or 3 QBs teams view as franchise guys and teams keep wasting top 5 picks on OTs. Give us the Clowney!...although ultimately we'll salvage too many wins to get Clowney.
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Old 10-06-2013, 03:36 AM    (permalink
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Clowney sat out the Kentucky game yesterday and there are signs of tension between he and the coaching staff. I think there are real concerns that NFL teams should have about his durability and attitude. I'm not saying they are huge concerns that should knock him way down, but when you're talking about a potential #1 pick, every little thing counts. No way a team like the Jags or Bucs should take him over a top QB prospect. He's not the flawless prospect he was once being viewed as.
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Old 10-06-2013, 05:59 AM    (permalink
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He more than sat out, he asked not to play because of sore ribs
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Old 10-06-2013, 06:20 AM    (permalink
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He more than sat out, he asked not to play because of sore ribs
How does a DE get sore ribs?? Never heard of that before.
Usually that's a RB/WR/QB type injury.
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Old 10-06-2013, 07:50 AM    (permalink
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Clowney sat out the Kentucky game yesterday and there are signs of tension between he and the coaching staff. I think there are real concerns that NFL teams should have about his durability and attitude. I'm not saying they are huge concerns that should knock him way down, but when you're talking about a potential #1 pick, every little thing counts. No way a team like the Jags or Bucs should take him over a top QB prospect. He's not the flawless prospect he was once being viewed as.
All in all this is only a big deal because it's October and not April. If Clowney fell out of the top 5 to a team like the Giants everyone would be kicking themselves for it after the fact. All stuff like this does is give a team a steal, then once he starts producing and trying for that team nobody will care about this anymore.
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Old 10-07-2013, 02:15 AM    (permalink
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It's almost written in the stars...then again I was sure that the Avalanche were going to pick Seth Jones instead of picking another amazing center. So my favorite teams do really like to **** with me.
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:36 AM    (permalink
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All in all this is only a big deal because it's October and not April. If Clowney fell out of the top 5 to a team like the Giants everyone would be kicking themselves for it after the fact. All stuff like this does is give a team a steal, then once he starts producing and trying for that team nobody will care about this anymore.
PLEASE LET THIS HAPPEN!!!

For the love of God, let this happen. This tank job we're doing will be worth it if we get Clowney. Well worth it.
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:43 AM    (permalink
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PLEASE LET THIS HAPPEN!!!

For the love of God, let this happen. This tank job we're doing will be worth it if we get Clowney. Well worth it.
I know this is going to happen, and it makes me mad.
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