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Old 10-11-2013, 11:20 AM    (permalink
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It depends. I think if we are in position to get Clowney you have to keep the 4-3 and get Clowney.

If not, then all bets are off.

And yeah I know it's not going to be easy, but at least the hope keeps me sane during an awful football season.
I really don't want yet another DE! This team needs to learn how to blitz without using DEs to save the day. Teams have adjusted to us regarding that. I don't want Clowney. He isn't going to save the day.

Plus I don't think we will be close to getting him. So I wouldn't have my heart set on anyone just now. Trade back and get future # 1 picks, and draft BPA from there. Even if that means not drafting an offensive linemen.
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Old 10-11-2013, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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I really don't want yet another DE! This team needs to learn how to blitz without using DEs to save the day. Teams have adjusted to us regarding that. I don't want Clowney. He isn't going to save the day.

Plus I don't think we will be close to getting him. So I wouldn't have my heart set on anyone just now. Trade back and get future # 1 picks, and draft BPA from there. Even if that means not drafting an offensive linemen.
Have you seen our pass rush this year? We absolutely need a pass rusher. If the guy is a potential HOFer like everyone claims, we'd be morons to pass on him if he's on the board.

Now if he's off the board when we draft, then yeah I'm perfectly fine with getting more picks. In fact, we probably will be in excellent position to do so because someone will move into the top 10 to get a qb so we definitely should pull the trigger in this scenario.

But if Clowney is on the board when we are up, you take Clowney. You have to. Especially when our pass rush is as awful as it is right now.
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Old 10-11-2013, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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Honestly, we're picking so high, it doesn't matter. We're going bpa and Clowney is the best player in this draft so if he's there, he's ours
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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Have you seen our pass rush this year? We absolutely need a pass rusher. If the guy is a potential HOFer like everyone claims, we'd be morons to pass on him if he's on the board.

Now if he's off the board when we draft, then yeah I'm perfectly fine with getting more picks. In fact, we probably will be in excellent position to do so because someone will move into the top 10 to get a qb so we definitely should pull the trigger in this scenario.

But if Clowney is on the board when we are up, you take Clowney. You have to. Especially when our pass rush is as awful as it is right now.
No, it's gone. That tank is done. Teams have adjusted. Do yourself a favor and count the drop steps and associated routes by opposing offenses. I did this and there is ZERO time for the pass rush to get there. Factor in they all are ineffective and the QB can sit back and have a beer or 10.

We need to learn how to blitz. We did last night and only 1 got home. That one was where Cutler had to rush because JW was on him. Otherwise as usual everything was EASILY picked up.

This team needs to learn how to create creative blitz packages. We have lacked that since Spags left. Switch to a 34 and draft a guy who can be effective. I doubt this Clowney guy, with all his potential will be a HOFer. That's putting a lot of production on his table already.

Like I said I doubt we are in the spot to get him too.
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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No, it's gone. That tank is done. Teams have adjusted. Do yourself a favor and count the drop steps and associated routes by opposing offenses. I did this and there is ZERO time for the pass rush to get there. Factor in they all are ineffective and the QB can sit back and have a beer or 10.

We need to learn how to blitz. We did last night and only 1 got home. That one was where Cutler had to rush because JW was on him. Otherwise as usual everything was EASILY picked up.

This team needs to learn how to create creative blitz packages. We have lacked that since Spags left. Switch to a 34 and draft a guy who can be effective. I doubt this Clowney guy, with all his potential will be a HOFer. That's putting a lot of production on his table already.

Like I said I doubt we are in the spot to get him too.
I think that depends on the QB. Not everyone gets rid of the ball like Peyton Manning. But yeah, pass rush can be nullified by QBs and offenses designed to get rid of the ball fast. Had to witness that frustration last Sunday against the Broncos. I knew they were getting rid of it fast, but didn't know how fast. PFF broke it down.

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On 42 drop-backs Manning averaged 2.2 seconds from snap to release, getting rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds or less on 31 of his 42 snaps. You don’t need me to tell you that isn’t much time to generate a pass rush
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...en-dal-week-5/

Caused us to have a discussion in the Cowboys forum about needing changes in the way we play defense.

That said, I agree with BBD. Clowney would have to be the pick. ...unless you take a QB. Second on my wishlist would be Anthony Barr if I were you.
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:49 PM    (permalink
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I think that depends on the QB. Not everyone gets rid of the ball like Peyton Manning. But yeah, pass rush can be nullified by QBs and offenses designed to get rid of the ball fast. Had to witness that frustration last Sunday against the Broncos. I knew they were getting rid of it fast, but didn't know how fast. PFF broke it down.


https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...en-dal-week-5/

Caused us to have a discussion in the Cowboys forum about needing changes in the way we play defense.

That said, I agree with BBD. Clowney would have to be the pick. ...unless you take a QB. Second on my wishlist would be Anthony Barr if I were you.

I observed this when McNabb played us in 2008 playoffs. And they all get the ball out now. Slants, because of PW's zone or off man technique by the Cbs. Screens are a big part. RB screens, WR screens, and TE screens have hurt us. Add 3 step concepts to the mix, and teams have been doing this a lot now. I credit the eagles for showing the blueprint. I saw this when it first happened.

Did you see Cutler get rid of the ball quickly? This is par for the course now. PW is bush league, so I expect zone or off man, and QBs will take adv. of that.

How does Barr compare to that Miami 34 OLB?
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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No, it's gone. That tank is done. Teams have adjusted. Do yourself a favor and count the drop steps and associated routes by opposing offenses. I did this and there is ZERO time for the pass rush to get there. Factor in they all are ineffective and the QB can sit back and have a beer or 10.

We need to learn how to blitz. We did last night and only 1 got home. That one was where Cutler had to rush because JW was on him. Otherwise as usual everything was EASILY picked up.

This team needs to learn how to create creative blitz packages. We have lacked that since Spags left. Switch to a 34 and draft a guy who can be effective. I doubt this Clowney guy, with all his potential will be a HOFer. That's putting a lot of production on his table already.

Like I said I doubt we are in the spot to get him too.
Your logic here makes no sense. If teams are 3 step dropping on us, why would you blitz them? You're just opening up more lanes for them to throw to and they'll get the ball out before the blitz gets there.

No matter how you slice it, you're doomed as a defense if you cannot generate a pass rush with 4 guys. And right now we can't do that. It starts up front and that's the main reason why our defense is so awful this year.

And the fact that teams schemed against our pass rush shows how effective it was. The fact that you had to deviate from your gameplan and run more 3 step drops effects your ability to score. The impact alone is worth it.

No singular defender can change the defense on his own, but if you're going to get an impact player, the best position to get one in is at pass rusher. You absolutely take the pass rusher if he falls into your lap.

Would you pass on Lawrence Taylor because teams are 3 step dropping? Hell no! Your logic here makes no sense.

And teams are still facing 3rd and long situations against us. The problem is we have absolutely no pass rush to get them off track. We need a pass rusher. Desperately.

You honestly can't justify taking any other defensive player over Clowney if he's on the board when we pick. There's just no logical argument for anyone else.

And no, I don't want to take an OT over Clowney either bc we don't need one, we need interior OL. And if we take an interior OLmen over Clowney then Reese needs to be fired immediately.

There's seriously not a single player you can justify over Clowney unless you want to make an argument for Bridgewater, in which case I still think it's a dumb idea bc we have Eli for another 6 years minimum.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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Your logic here makes no sense. If teams are 3 step dropping on us, why would you blitz them? You're just opening up more lanes for them to throw to and they'll get the ball out before the blitz gets there.

No matter how you slice it, you're doomed as a defense if you cannot generate a pass rush with 4 guys. And right now we can't do that. It starts up front and that's the main reason why our defense is so awful this year.

And the fact that teams schemed against our pass rush shows how effective it was. The fact that you had to deviate from your gameplan and run more 3 step drops effects your ability to score. The impact alone is worth it.

No singular defender can change the defense on his own, but if you're going to get an impact player, the best position to get one in is at pass rusher. You absolutely take the pass rusher if he falls into your lap.

Would you pass on Lawrence Taylor because teams are 3 step dropping? Hell no! Your logic here makes no sense.

And teams are still facing 3rd and long situations against us. The problem is we have absolutely no pass rush to get them off track. We need a pass rusher. Desperately.

You honestly can't justify taking any other defensive player over Clowney if he's on the board when we pick. There's just no logical argument for anyone else.

And no, I don't want to take an OT over Clowney either bc we don't need one, we need interior OL. And if we take an interior OLmen over Clowney then Reese needs to be fired immediately.

There's seriously not a single player you can justify over Clowney unless you want to make an argument for Bridgewater, in which case I still think it's a dumb idea bc we have Eli for another 6 years minimum.


Because you don't know they are going to run a 3 step concept? They are under center and could very well run a 5 step passing concept. Obviously, in hindsight after you see the play you can say that. Also, watch the QBs change the play after they see the off man technique. Here is another thing to watch. Look for hand signals right before the ball is snapped. I saw Cutler do that too when he was Prince off Marshall.

I was thinking about Bridgewater. I am not impressed with him. I think the schedule they play is a powder puff schedule. So the competition would worry me. I wish he played in the SEC and had the production he is having.

LT we know is a known commodity. We don't know what Clowney can do. As of now, I say no. But it's still early, I need to see more of him in the offseason when I get time.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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Because you don't know they are going to run a 3 step concept? They are under center and could very well run a 5 step passing concept. Obviously, in hindsight after you see the play you can say that. Also, watch the QBs change the play after they see the off man technique. Here is another thing to watch. Look for hand signals right before the ball is snapped. I saw Cutler do that too when he was Prince off Marshall.

I was thinking about Bridgewater. I am not impressed with him. I think the schedule they play is a powder puff schedule. So the competition would worry me. I wish he played in the SEC and had the production he is having.

LT we know is a known commodity. We don't know what Clowney can do. As of now, I say no. But it's still early, I need to see more of him in the offseason when I get time.
I don't understand your point? So what do you want over Clowney? A DB? No DB in this draft is anywhere near the prospect Clowney is. A ILB? No ILB is even close. A DT?

Like...what do you suggest we take over Clowney? The man is going to draw a double on every single play, he's going to eliminate the run on one side of the field, he's going to force teams to roll away from him, use screens, use 3 step drops.

All of that alone is worth it. Think of the impact he has on a gameplan. You don't want that kind of impact player? I don't understand.

http://www.detroitlionsdraft.com/201...eveon-clowney/

Read that article. It will give you some insight on how dominant Clowney is.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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I don't understand your point? So what do you want over Clowney? A DB? No DB in this draft is anywhere near the prospect Clowney is. A ILB? No ILB is even close. A DT?

Like...what do you suggest we take over Clowney? The man is going to draw a double on every single play, he's going to eliminate the run on one side of the field, he's going to force teams to roll away from him, use screens, use 3 step drops.

All of that alone is worth it. Think of the impact he has on a gameplan. You don't want that kind of impact player? I don't understand.

http://www.detroitlionsdraft.com/201...eveon-clowney/

Read that article. It will give you some insight on how dominant Clowney is.

I won't lock on a single target. Let's see how the combine and stuff plays out. I will make my final decision then.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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I won't lock on a single target. Let's see how the combine and stuff plays out. I will make my final decision then.
For me personally, if we pick #2 overall, it's Clowney. There isn't a doubt in my mind.

Barr is a stud too. But it's Clowney for me.

The only thing that changes my mind is if we wind up picking after Clowney is selected. In which case I'm almost positive I want to move the pick for multiple picks.

You should read the article, and scout Clowney some from last year. He's the real deal bro.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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For me personally, if we pick #2 overall, it's Clowney. There isn't a doubt in my mind.

Barr is a stud too. But it's Clowney for me.

The only thing that changes my mind is if we wind up picking after Clowney is selected. In which case I'm almost positive I want to move the pick for multiple picks.

You should read the article, and scout Clowney some from last year. He's the real deal bro.
Don't know anything on Barr. How does he compare to Dion Jordan, the OLB Dolphins LB?

I am not doubting his talent. I just don't think we will be in Clowney range. People are fixating on Clowney. I am saying don't do that. Keep your mind open or you will be unhappy because we win 2 games by luck, thus putting ourselves out of Clowney range.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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Don't know anything on Barr. How does he compare to Dion Jordan, the OLB Dolphins LB?

I am not doubting his talent. I just don't think we will be in Clowney range. People are fixating on Clowney. I am saying don't do that. Keep your mind open or you will be unhappy because we win 2 games by luck, thus putting ourselves out of Clowney range.
Barr reminds me of Von Miller. He's better than Jordan. A lot better. Mingo is better than Jordan, although Jordan is still very good.

If we miss out on Clowney, Barr is a guy I'd look at. It would take a creative coach to use him though, because I'd imagine we would use him the same way Denver uses Von, as a SAM in a 4-3 then as a wide 9 2 point stance rusher in the nickel.

Fewell won't know how to use Barr at all. But I doubt Fewell is around anyway.

I'm personally not a fan of drafting OTs so high. I just think it's an overrated position. Ironically, I think interior OL is underrated, and it's where our needs are anyway.

But I can't justify taking interior OL in the top 10 either. So either Clowney, Barr, or trade out.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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Barr reminds me of Von Miller. He's better than Jordan. A lot better. Mingo is better than Jordan, although Jordan is still very good.

If we miss out on Clowney, Barr is a guy I'd look at. It would take a creative coach to use him though, because I'd imagine we would use him the same way Denver uses Von, as a SAM in a 4-3 then as a wide 9 2 point stance rusher in the nickel.

Fewell won't know how to use Barr at all. But I doubt Fewell is around anyway.

I'm personally not a fan of drafting OTs so high. I just think it's an overrated position. Ironically, I think interior OL is underrated, and it's where our needs are anyway.

But I can't justify taking interior OL in the top 10 either. So either Clowney, Barr, or trade out.

Creative and coach? Now you're just taking crazy. Creative coach. That's oxymoronic like conservative ****. Both coordinators need to go. No one on this OL is under rated.

Let's do what Reese says and bring in competition and let's see who stays. No one on the OL except for Pugh should be safe. I don't mind taking a OT in the top 10. However, if BPA or whatever dictates Barr or whoever, then I am fine. Stick to your draft board. Ideally, don't let ross set up the draft board!!
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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I won't lock on a single target. Let's see how the combine and stuff plays out. I will make my final decision then.
I will make my prediction for you.

Come draft day NY+G will want Jake Matthews. Push Pugh into Guard where he's always belonged. Matthews is a premier RT, best I've seen in a long time. It would be a sound move considering how wack your OL is.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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I will make my prediction for you.

Come draft day NY+G will want Jake Matthews. Push Pugh into Guard where he's always belonged. Matthews is a premier RT, best I've seen in a long time. It would be a sound move considering how wack your OL is.
I am leaning towards that. But a good coach or scout keeps an open mind. So until after the season, I will watch everything and make a decision.

I do like Barr from what I am reading. I initially thought of that. Bring Mathews at RT, move Pugh to OG, and sign Mack. That right side now becomes strong. I initially wanted Mangold-Snee-McKenzie right side of the OL instead of taking Kiwi.

Let's see though how the offseason plays out. I don't think we are in Clowney range. I think we will win a few random games that put us out of range.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:45 PM    (permalink
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If we take Matthews over Clowney I will punch someone in the face.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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If we take Matthews over Clowney I will punch someone in the face.
Again, you're assuming we are sitting ther, perfect for Clowney to be taken. I'd say keep your mind open because I highly doubt Clowney will be in range for us. In fact, go with the premise he isn't even in the draft. This way if he is, and if he gets drafted by us, you can drink yourself silly out of sheer happiness.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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Again, you're assuming we are sitting ther, perfect for Clowney to be taken. I'd say keep your mind open because I highly doubt Clowney will be in range for us. In fact, go with the premise he isn't even in the draft. This way if he is, and if he gets drafted by us, you can drink yourself silly out of sheer happiness.
I know I'm setting myself up for disappointment, but at least it gives me something to get excited about.

There's no other player worth being excited about for us in our draft range. At least it gives me something to hope for.

I'm curious to see what other defensive players are available that could warrant a top 10 pick. I haven't scouted yet, I usually do that when the bowl games start.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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I know I'm setting myself up for disappointment, but at least it gives me something to get excited about.
That's very true. Just consider it like going 9-7 and missing the playoffs on the last Sunday of the year. We probably won't get him, but with every loss we get closer to him. Now would the Jags ever pass on a QB and take him?

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Old 10-11-2013, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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Jug,

I was actually thinking that too. Poor BBD would faint. If we are in range with the 2nd pick and they take hkm! hahahahah BBD would stomp the yard at the Jags front office!
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Old 10-11-2013, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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That's very true. Just consider it like going 9-7 and missing the playoffs on the last Sunday of the year. We probably won't get him, but with every loss we get closer to him. Now would the Jags ever pass on a QB and take him?
I will kill everything Jaguars related in this world if that happens.

But then we get to trade the pick for a bajillion picks bc someone would move up for Teddy. So it wouldn't be too bad.

But still.
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Old 10-11-2013, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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David Wilson diagnosed with spinal stenosis or narrowing of the spine. Getting a second opinion on if its career threatening.

I wish him the very best. However, our doctors need to do a better job if Wilson is done. That's two first rounders with issues. Kenny P and now Wilson.
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Old 10-11-2013, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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I mean, if Clowney is at our pick he WILL be the pick. With our love for DEs and the fact he's one of the best to come around in a LONG LONG time, I think there is no doubt we take him.You don't pass on a once-in-a-decade talent for some OT. There are amazing OTs in every draft. Can't say the same for DEs.

And I'm not sure what you mean, NYG. You act like the three step drop and quick passing concepts has neutralized the usefulness of the DE. Then why are DE/pass rushers still getting absurd sack numbers? Also, look at a guy like JJ Watt. He puts up great sack totals AND he has a huge impact because of his ability to swat down passes.
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Old 10-11-2013, 04:17 PM    (permalink
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I mean, if Clowney is at our pick he WILL be the pick. With our love for DEs and the fact he's one of the best to come around in a LONG LONG time, I think there is no doubt we take him.You don't pass on a once-in-a-decade talent for some OT. There are amazing OTs in every draft. Can't say the same for DEs.

And I'm not sure what you mean, NYG. You act like the three step drop and quick passing concepts has neutralized the usefulness of the DE. Then why are DE/pass rushers still getting absurd sack numbers? Also, look at a guy like JJ Watt. He puts up great sack totals AND he has a huge impact because of his ability to swat down passes.

No I am saying that's what happening to our DL. You can still do that with any DL. Watt is not the rule, he is the exception. However, no its all about the 34 LBs. They are the ones who are consistently producing.

I am putting my hat in the ring for Clowney yet or anyone for that matter. But like I told BBD pretend he is not in the draft because fixating on him isn't a good thing especially if we don't get him. A lot of sad faces if people ride that train and if its not plausible to draft him bexause he isn't in our range they will be very sad.
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