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Old 11-20-2013, 08:12 PM    (permalink
Bob Sanders Dreadlock
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His accuracy has been ridiculous. Way better than I ever thought it could be. He beats the blitz with ease. His deep ball has been insane. He refuses to make mistakes. His numbers are ridiculous for a 2nd-year player. He has 8.6 YPA and a 19/6 TD/INT so far. He's done most of it with starters along the line missing in almost every game. And his consistency is just remarkable. Unflappable. The list goes on.

He's 45/16 TD/INT in his first year and a half +. That's incredible especially considering how many TDs they score in the running game.

His record is 21-6 as a starter. That's just insane.
They were 7-9 the 2 years before Wilson got there including beating Brees in the playoffs. One of those years was with tavaris freaking jackson.

And this year the team has become his. Sure the running game is good but the offense is totally Russell-centric. In fact it's usually been the passing game scoring first and the running game playing with the lead. He's undoubtedly more important to the offense than Lynch right now still must be nice to have the guy that is 2nd in the league in rushing. That's not even a question.

No one I've seen compares to Peyton Manning except the Brady year with Moss. And Brees has a very special thing going with Sean Payton.

But after those guys I don't think any QB is playing even close to Wilson's level He sure seemed to get outplayed in Lucas oil (unless Foles keeps this up for more than he has - and even he had 4 amazing games and one absolute dud).

Literally EVERY aspect of his game is at the elite level right now minus two weaknesses.

1) His height does influence his vision on 5 and 7 step drops, especially from under center when he's looking over the middle. I don't think he sees the short and intermediate levels of the middle of the field that well due to his height.

2) His size makes him easier to take down and prone to fumbles when he's hit hard by larger defenders. He does a good job of protecting the ball as a runner and he does have that innate ability to feel the pass rush, but when a defender gets a clean shot on him in the pocket and he doesn't duck under and give himself up in time, he gets engulfed and moved so far and hard because he's so small that he loses control of the ball easier than a 6'4 230-pound guy would.
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Old 11-20-2013, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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They already had a top 10 defense and a probowl Running, but it was only until Wilson came in that they have gone on this run.

It is very hard in the NFL to make the jump from a 7-9 team to 11-5 and now 10-1, if you don't think Wilson has been the difference you are kidding yourself.

And the colts may have won the game but luck outplaying wilson is untrue, it was pretty close between them. Luck threw for 20 more yards but wilson had over 100 yards rushing as he was running for his life with a make shift offensive line.
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Old 11-20-2013, 08:32 PM    (permalink
Bob Sanders Dreadlock
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They already had a top 10 defense and a probowl Running, but it was only until Wilson came in that they have gone on this run.

It is very hard in the NFL to make the jump from a 7-9 team to 11-5 and now 10-1, if you don't think Wilson has been the difference you are kidding yourself.

And the colts may have won the game but luck outplaying wilson is untrue, it was pretty close between them. Luck threw for 20 more yards but wilson had over 100 yards rushing as he was running for his life with a make shift offensive line.
Yes because he is an upgrade over an aged matt hasselbeck and tavaris jackson. They were 7-9 with Tavaris as a starter thats kind of point of how good they were before he even got there. 7-9 to 11-5 is very hard then what is 2-14 to 11-5 without a top 10 defense or probowl runningback?
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Old 11-20-2013, 09:28 PM    (permalink
mightytitan9
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In games decided within 7 points Wilson hasn't played nearly as good. A lot of his stats are padded in games where the Seahawks are blowing teams out, down to a 7 tds to 4 interceptions in games that meet those requirements this season.

Russell Wilson is a very good QB, but he does greatly benefit from having one of the best RBs in the league and a great defense that allows him to play within his capabilities.

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Old 11-20-2013, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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Yes because he is an upgrade over an aged matt hasselbeck and tavaris jackson. They were 7-9 with Tavaris as a starter thats kind of point of how good they were before he even got there. 7-9 to 11-5 is very hard then what is 2-14 to 11-5 without a top 10 defense or probowl runningback?
Eh. Tarvaris Jackson isn't nearly as bad as the Kerry Collins/Curtis Painter duo.

But I don't get what Luck has to do with my post at all. Because I said no other QB is at his level right now aside from Brees/Manning? That's definitely true.

Luck might be the better player than Wilson in the long run. But there is no question who is having a better sophomore year, regardless of supporting cast.

As the poster above me said, if you don't think Wilson's been the difference you're kidding yourself. Lynch had a 4.2 YPC with T-Jack. Last year he had a 5.0 and right now a 4.4.

I think you can argue Luck is a better player because of his size advantage and durability, but you can do that without the BS "supporting cast" argument that completely depreciates the player and gives him really no chance to "impress" anyone because he's on a good team.

I like to judge reality, and the reality is that Wilson is right now a great player on a great team. I don't care to imagine what he'd be like in some hypothetical world without Lynch or the defense. That's useless, especially in a team sport like football. The goal is to play as well as you can with what's around you. It's the NFL and great QB's have consistently proven to lift the level of play of those around him. Wilson has undoubtedly done that. Resoundingly. Luck has too, but he's not having a better overall season than Wilson any way you slice it.

And Luck may have outplayed Wilson at home in Wilson's worst game of the season, but that's the unquestioned lowpoint and 1 game that conveniently fits the comparison you brought up for no reason and undoubtedly favors Wilson in every way minus that one H2H matchup. Wilson's WORST game in which he accounted for 75% of his teams 400+ total yards, and led his offense to 26 points on the road.
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Old 11-20-2013, 09:47 PM    (permalink
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In games decided within 7 points Wilson hasn't played nearly as good. A lot of his stats are padded in games where the Seahawks are blowing teams out, down to a 7 tds to 4 interceptions in games that meet those requirements this season.

Russell Wilson is a very good QB, but he doesn't greatly benefit from having one of the best RBs in the league and a great defense that allows him to play within his capabilities.
Lol so he doesn't deserve credit for leading blowouts... ok.

Drew Brees from the same requirements: 8 TDs to 7 interceptions.

So your point with that stat was to tell us that QBs have better stats in games they win by a lot than games they don't. Come on. I think you can wrap your head around why a 7/4 int ratio in close games isn't some damning number.

But the bold is what I don't get. What exactly does that mean? He is the driving force of the Seahawks right now. Their unquestioned best player and the one guy who is irreplaceable.
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Old 11-20-2013, 11:15 PM    (permalink
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Lol so he doesn't deserve credit for leading blowouts... ok.

Drew Brees from the same requirements: 8 TDs to 7 interceptions.

So your point with that stat was to tell us that QBs have better stats in games they win by a lot than games they don't. Come on. I think you can wrap your head around why a 7/4 int ratio in close games isn't some damning number.

But the bold is what I don't get. What exactly does that mean? He is the driving force of the Seahawks right now. Their unquestioned best player and the one guy who is irreplaceable.
I never said he didn't deserve credit, I was saying more that the Seahawks have had a relatively easy schedule, rather easy to blow out and score points on. I am simply looking at the whole picture.

Having arguably the 2nd best RB in the league right now has a ton to do with Wilson efficiency. He doesn't have as much pressure on him due to the run game and a good defense.

He's heading the 3rd ranked running team in the NFL right now, even if you remove Wilsons 409 rushing yards, it's still a top 10 ranked rushing attack. Meanwhile you've got the 2nd ranked defense in terms of yardage allowed per game, and 3rd in the NFL in points allowed.

Russell Wilsons efficiency has been very well this season, but it's the end results of many factors, one of which he is a very good QB.
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Old 11-20-2013, 11:39 PM    (permalink
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I never said he didn't deserve credit, I was saying more that the Seahawks have had a relatively easy schedule, rather easy to blow out and score points on. I am simply looking at the whole picture.

Having arguably the 2nd best RB in the league right now has a ton to do with Wilson efficiency. He doesn't have as much pressure on him due to the run game and a good defense.

He's heading the 3rd ranked running team in the NFL right now, even if you remove Wilsons 409 rushing yards, it's still a top 10 ranked rushing attack. Meanwhile you've got the 2nd ranked defense in terms of yardage allowed per game, and 3rd in the NFL in points allowed.

Russell Wilsons efficiency has been very well this season, but it's the end results of many factors, one of which he is a very good QB.
I hope you mean this as figurative pressure, right? Which is completely made up BS because every QB in the league is under pressure.

I really don't see how having a top rushing attack, one as you point out is such in part BECAUSE of Wilson's own contributions (not to mention what his threat does to help the RBs) is something negative to his evaluation.

Pointing to rushing stats doesn't tell us anything about the player. You aren't dissecting an actual weakness of his. You are just proving that the running game is good. By saying that's somehow a negative I think you're implying that in some other world without that running game he wouldn't be playing as well? Why? What evidence would support that claim besides make believe? Wouldn't it be more logical to simply evaluate how he plays with the supporting cast he has?
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Old 11-21-2013, 12:47 AM    (permalink
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I hope you mean this as figurative pressure, right? Which is completely made up BS because every QB in the league is under pressure.

I really don't see how having a top rushing attack, one as you point out is such in part BECAUSE of Wilson's own contributions (not to mention what his threat does to help the RBs) is something negative to his evaluation.

Pointing to rushing stats doesn't tell us anything about the player. You aren't dissecting an actual weakness of his. You are just proving that the running game is good. By saying that's somehow a negative I think you're implying that in some other world without that running game he wouldn't be playing as well? Why? What evidence would support that claim besides make believe? Wouldn't it be more logical to simply evaluate how he plays with the supporting cast he has?
A QB with a solid rushing attack is under less pressure than a QB without a solid rushing attack. That's pretty much a given...

I really haven't said anything poorly of Russell Wilson so I don't understand why you're so defensive. I've simply said he's aided by a good rushing attack and a solid defense. He is able to play a style of football that fits his style, dating back to college. I never said a 7/4 td/int in close games wasn't good, I think you need to look back at what I've previously said. I simply pointed out he hasn't played as well in close games.

When an offense has a strong running game it opens up the offense and makes it easier on the QB with play-action throws, something Seattle likes to do. When they key in to stop the run it opens things up for Russell Wilson in the passing game. It's basic football.

You don't like to equate situations that aren't factual into conversation. That's fine and I understand, I had this same conversation with you before the season when I was saying that Cam Newton was a very good QB despite what his win/loss record stated because his supporting cast and defense was horrible. Now we can see with an improved supporting cast and improved defense what he's capable of. I compared a hypothetical situation where Russell Wilson was a Panther back then and said he'd be in the same situation as Cam was back then.

You don't like to compare hypothetical sitautions, I get it. But statistics aren't the only telling story in the NFL. Yes, Russell Wilson plays well with his supporting cast. The Seahawks are winning with Russell Wilson because he's a good QB, but the supporting cast, coaching and defensive play also deserve major credit for the production and statistics that Wilson has accumulated so far in his brief NFL career.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:11 AM    (permalink
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Every quarterback has to have receivers that catch the ball; every running back has to have linemen who block; linebackers need defensive tackles to occupy blockers; defensive backs need edge rushers to limit the time receivers have to get open. It is and always has been a team sport where an individuals' success has a lot to do with his teammates. I'm just not really sure where you're going with this mightytitan9, because gpngc hasn't really been relying on stats at all. He's mentioned a couple, but his major points have been Russell's accuracy, deep ball precision, decision-making, efficiency and ability to avoid mistakes, his ability to extend and create plays, and what his elusiveness and running ability does to help Marshawn Lynch and compensate for what has been a lackluster offensive line for the past month. "Yeah, but he has a strong defense," just doesn't seem to be a rebuttal to anything. It helps explain why the Seahawks are widely considered the no.1 overall team in the league, but you seem to be trying to use the team's overall success as a way to downplay Russell's excellence, which doesn't really make sense. Directing long, clock-eating drives really helps a defense stay fresh and effective, too. He is helping the defense by being so consistent and effective on offense.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:40 AM    (permalink
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Every quarterback has to have receivers that catch the ball; every running back has to have linemen who block; linebackers need defensive tackles to occupy blockers; defensive backs need edge rushers to limit the time receivers have to get open. It is and always has been a team sport where an individuals' success has a lot to do with his teammates. I'm just not really sure where you're going with this mightytitan9, because gpngc hasn't really been relying on stats at all. He's mentioned a couple, but his major points have been Russell's accuracy, deep ball precision, decision-making, efficiency and ability to avoid mistakes, his ability to extend and create plays, and what his elusiveness and running ability does to help Marshawn Lynch and compensate for what has been a lackluster offensive line for the past month. "Yeah, but he has a strong defense," just doesn't seem to be a rebuttal to anything. It helps explain why the Seahawks are widely considered the no.1 overall team in the league, but you seem to be trying to use the team's overall success as a way to downplay Russell's excellence, which doesn't really make sense. Directing long, clock-eating drives really helps a defense stay fresh and effective, too. He is helping the defense by being so consistent and effective on offense.
I'm really not trying to downplay Wilson, and I think that's where the confusion is coming from. In my initial post I was more responding to this:

Quote:
He has 8.6 YPA and a 19/6 TD/INT so far. He's done most of it with starters along the line missing in almost every game. And his consistency is just remarkable. Unflappable. The list goes on.

He's 45/16 TD/INT in his first year and a half +. That's incredible especially considering how many TDs they score in the running game.

His record is 21-6 as a starter. That's just insane.
Those stats are great, I was simply trying to point out why some of those statistics are the way they are. Wilson is a very good QB, but he has the pieces around him to do that.

He's still not a guy at this point in his career I think can be the true focal point of an offense, but that comes with time. I still believe Lynch is the engine that makes it go.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:53 AM    (permalink
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And in short, you're talking to two people who watch the Seahawks play on a weekly basis and we're saying that Russell Wilson is the focal point of the offense.
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Old 11-21-2013, 04:39 AM    (permalink
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Wilson is at Brees/Manning level now huh, lol.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:26 AM    (permalink
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laugh all you want! those guys can't run.
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Old 11-21-2013, 04:08 PM    (permalink
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No one I've seen compares to Peyton Manning except the Brady year with Moss. And Brees has a very special thing going with Sean Payton.

But after those guys I don't think any QB is playing even close to Wilson's level (unless Foles keeps this up for more than he has - and even he had 4 amazing games and one absolute dud).
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Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers View Post
Wilson is at Brees/Manning level now huh, lol.
I love these types of posts. Good contribution.
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Old 11-21-2013, 04:13 PM    (permalink
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I'm really not trying to downplay Wilson, and I think that's where the confusion is coming from. In my initial post I was more responding to this:



Those stats are great, I was simply trying to point out why some of those statistics are the way they are. Wilson is a very good QB, but he has the pieces around him to do that.

He's still not a guy at this point in his career I think can be the true focal point of an offense, but that comes with time. I still believe Lynch is the engine that makes it go.
First bold: It seems like you are.

Second bold: The number one reason Russell Wilson's stats are the way they are is Russell Wilson.

Third bold: I hate to accuse you of this, but you probably don't watch them play much if you really think that. He is the unquestioned focal point of the offense and the only irreplaceable player.

Fourth bold: It's undoubtedly Wilson. There are long stretches where Lynch doesn't even play. You might feel this way because Lynch is a much more interesting character for the broadcast and a much more unique, highlight reel guy so they show him more. But if you watch games, Turbin plays a bunch and the offense flows through Wilson in every single game, especially early.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:33 PM    (permalink
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I'm sorry, I try not to contribute too much of my time responding to someone who is either clearly trolling, or clearly ignorant beyond repair when it comes to evaluating players.

Forest from trees, and all that.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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I'm sorry, I try not to contribute too much of my time responding to someone who is either clearly trolling, or clearly ignorant beyond repair when it comes to evaluating players.

Forest from trees, and all that.
Then why wander into a thread and make something up?

I clearly stated that Wilson was on a level after Brees and Manning. You either missed that or were unable to comprehend what it meant and said this:
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Wilson is at Brees/Manning level now huh, lol.
?????
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Old 11-21-2013, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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What really bothers me about this board, is we'll give excuses for guys when they don't have a good enough supporting cast. But the guys who have one we use it to discredit why they are playing better or why their stats are better. Somehow this board can't decide what it is they want.
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Old 11-21-2013, 09:45 PM    (permalink
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What really bothers me about this board, is we'll give excuses for guys when they don't have a good enough supporting cast. But the guys who have one we use it to discredit why they are playing better or why their stats are better. Somehow this board can't decide what it is they want.
The board wants a QB with Peyton Manning's stats and, lets say Aaron Dobson and Kenbrell Thompkins as his receivers, Trent Richardson as his running back and the 2005 Houston Texans' offensive line. And by the board, I mean football fans in general.
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:04 AM    (permalink
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Then why wander into a thread and make something up?

I clearly stated that Wilson was on a level after Brees and Manning. You either missed that or were unable to comprehend what it meant and said this:

?????
It's still a crappy statement, since it isn't true. Other guys are still visibly vastly superior QBs. Then there are a bunch that are arguable.
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:43 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
What really bothers me about this board, is we'll give excuses for guys when they don't have a good enough supporting cast. But the guys who have one we use it to discredit why they are playing better or why their stats are better. Somehow this board can't decide what it is they want.
We want to complain! This way we can ***** about a QB no matter what, unless we like him.
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Old 11-22-2013, 08:15 PM    (permalink
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It's still a crappy statement, since it isn't true. Other guys are still visibly vastly superior QBs. Then there are a bunch that are arguable.

Please prove that it isn't true. Please prove that there is a QB playing at his level right now aside from Brees and Manning who are playing at separate levels of their own.

Brady and his almost 2 yard lower YPA is not a vastly superior QB right now.

If you really believe the bold, you haven't watched much of Russell Wilson this year. Understandable, they've only been on National TV 3 times. Nobody remembers Week 2 this far into the season and nobody considers the Cardinals a team so probably 12 people watched that game. And then the Rams dominated the Seahakws patchwork OL which only allowed him 18 attempts, his worst statistical output of the year on the road, where he still threw two TDs and didn't turn the ball over.
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Old 12-03-2013, 12:42 AM    (permalink
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So. This wasn't the Titans on a random Sunday at 4:00 with 12 people watching.

Now are we sold? Or is it still Lynch that makes him look good?
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Old 12-03-2013, 12:48 AM    (permalink
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So. This wasn't the Titans on a random Sunday at 4:00 with 12 people watching.

Now are we sold? Or is it still Lynch that makes him look good?

I check my impossibly high standards checklist of ridiculousness and I have determined that because Russell Wilson's team does not consist of real life equivalents of characters from the movie "The Replacements", he's not really all that great.
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