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Old 12-03-2013, 09:03 PM    (permalink
jballa838
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Louisville is probably the most talented team in that conference. It's not like it is Bridgewater and a bunch of scrubs playing every week. Plenty of other QBs have been questioned for playing against weaker competition (Derek Carr comes to mind in this draft) so it is a valid point to mention this as a question for Bridgewater leading up to the draft.
Louisville is the most talented team this year, they got beat by UCF and that kind of derailed everything this year, I will agree with you on that. The Big East in 2012 was a very good defensive conference and he was quite productive last year against Rutgers and Florida, which were loaded with NFL talent.

Bridgewater got better this past season statistically (although not by a large margin) but that was less substantial than the drop off in talent they've faced. Plus, his production has waned in the last 3 games, and I think that has to be addressed as well.

Don't let anyone tell you anything crazy about Teddy though, he's playing even better this season, he has not regressed, he's still outstanding, and he's going to be the #1 overall pick this season.
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Old 12-03-2013, 09:51 PM    (permalink
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jballa838
Why do you have to be such a sensationalist about this? AJ McCarron might be the 6th or 7th best offensive player on the field at any given time (Both Kuandijo(sic), Steen, Cooper, Yeldon, Jones) so all of that "HE'S FACING AN NFL DEFENSE" stuff can go out of the window because his cast is just as talented. Also, this LSU defense is the worst statistically of the past 4 seasons, but that doesn't matter because the name brand carries a ton of weight, right? Because of all of those successful LSU defenders in the NFL, right? Or because you watch CBS on Saturday afternoons and eat up with whatever pro-SEC propaganda Verne feeds you?

There is not a single thing on the field that McCarron can do that Teddy can't, while Teddy is much more productive as the focal point of a less talented team. Teddy is a better and more productive player than AJ McCarron.
I never said Teddy is not better than McCarron. I said Teddy is not that great and neither are many of the other quarterbacks out there, very good but not elite. So it is not like McCarron is that far off from the rest of the pack. Thus is deserving of being in the conversation.

I will not even address the comments on LSU having bad defensive players in the NFL because that is just ridiculous...As for me watching just CBS games, sure if that is what you believe, but I weekly prove that is not exactly the case.

To say Teddy Bridgewater has lived up to the expectations he had off that dominating performance against Florida in the BCS bowl game, no not really. They were supposed to roll over everyone they play and compete for a national title. That is obviously not happening so I would say that is a disappointment for them and him. Thus the so-so season comment....he can change that with a good end of the season and a good bowl game but we will see.
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Old 12-03-2013, 10:32 PM    (permalink
jballa838
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I never said Teddy is not better than McCarron. I said Teddy is not that great and neither are many of the other quarterbacks out there, very good but not elite. So it is not like McCarron is that far off from the rest of the pack. Thus is deserving of being in the conversation.

I will not even address the comments on LSU having bad defensive players in the NFL because that is just ridiculous...As for me watching just CBS games, sure if that is what you believe, but I weekly prove that is not exactly the case.

To say Teddy Bridgewater has lived up to the expectations he had off that dominating performance against Florida in the BCS bowl game, no not really. They were supposed to roll over everyone they play and compete for a national title. That is obviously not happening so I would say that is a disappointment for them and him. Thus the so-so season comment....he can change that with a good end of the season and a good bowl game but we will see.
So we expect a team that was 15-21 from 2007-2009 and 14-12 from 2010-2011 to go undefeated and be the best team in the country because their QB is the best prospect in years, but we're so appalled when they're 11-1 and their loss was a Friday night game, where they lost by 3 points? They still scored 35 points and all that but because Teddy Bridgewater doesn't have an Alabama defense to back him up AJ McCarron is suddenly on his level?

People like you are the reason we can't have nice things. A 21 year old kid doesn't win every game all season and now he's discounted and sold at 85 cents on the dollar even though he's improved as a whole this season.

So what does he have to do against Cincinnati to prove to you that he's elite?
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Old 12-03-2013, 10:41 PM    (permalink
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I'm somewhere in the middle on this debate. Obviously you'd like to see a guy perform in a situation as close to an NFL setting as possible and therefore guys who succeed against better competition should get recognition for that. On the other hand I'll bring up the fact that the 2 Qbs who played in the Superbowl last season came from Delaware and Nevada so......
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Old 12-03-2013, 10:45 PM    (permalink
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Yeah right.
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Old 12-04-2013, 07:04 AM    (permalink
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So we expect a team that was 15-21 from 2007-2009 and 14-12 from 2010-2011 to go undefeated and be the best team in the country because their QB is the best prospect in years, but we're so appalled when they're 11-1 and their loss was a Friday night game, where they lost by 3 points? They still scored 35 points and all that but because Teddy Bridgewater doesn't have an Alabama defense to back him up AJ McCarron is suddenly on his level?

People like you are the reason we can't have nice things. A 21 year old kid doesn't win every game all season and now he's discounted and sold at 85 cents on the dollar even though he's improved as a whole this season.

So what does he have to do against Cincinnati to prove to you that he's elite?
He is the best QB prospect in years? Since when? If by "years" you mean last year only.

But in 2012 there were much more elite players in Andrew Luck and Robert Griffin III drafted, then year before that 2011 Cam Newton was drafted he was a better overall prospect. Then in 2010, was never a huge fan of the guy but Sam Bradford was a better prospect, and in 2009 Matthew Stafford is way more elite than Bridgewater, 2008 Matt Ryan... etc. etc.


So where you are getting this that he is one of the best in years I have no idea. And if he shocks everyone, and comes back for his senior season there is no way in hell Jameis Winston is not picked over him.


Is he good, yes, great, not sure on that. By elite I mean rare and looking at quarterbacks over the past years I would take over him there are a lot so he is not the best prospect in years.

For him to be improving his season, he obviously has to win out and win convincingly. The past two weeks has not been impressive wins for him or Louisville and if Bridgewater is as good as people say he should be destroying a lot of the teams he plays with the offense he has.

Since some seem to be a defensive stats guy, Louisville is 3rd in the country in points given up. Does that mean they are a great defense with tons of talent, of course not! They would be lucky to have one or two defensive players drafted.... But still, they have a decent football team, good stable of running backs, decent defense on paper, really like Brown on the OL, and same with Miller. They have more than one good receiver and an athletic tight end and Parker is a stud at WR. So back again, considering who they play they should be winning by a lot bigger margins than they are. Thus the so so season comment.


Will Bridgewater be good at the next level? Possibly, but forget all of this best QB prospect in years thinking, because look back and he simply is not.
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Old 12-04-2013, 09:34 AM    (permalink
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Ozzy, what do you think of Bortles? Same conference as Teddy and is leading UCF to a dream season.
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Old 12-04-2013, 11:57 AM    (permalink
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He is the best QB prospect in years? Since when? If by "years" you mean last year only.

But in 2012 there were much more elite players in Andrew Luck and Robert Griffin III drafted, then year before that 2011 Cam Newton was drafted he was a better overall prospect. Then in 2010, was never a huge fan of the guy but Sam Bradford was a better prospect, and in 2009 Matthew Stafford is way more elite than Bridgewater, 2008 Matt Ryan... etc. etc.


So where you are getting this that he is one of the best in years I have no idea. And if he shocks everyone, and comes back for his senior season there is no way in hell Jameis Winston is not picked over him.


Is he good, yes, great, not sure on that. By elite I mean rare and looking at quarterbacks over the past years I would take over him there are a lot so he is not the best prospect in years.

For him to be improving his season, he obviously has to win out and win convincingly. The past two weeks has not been impressive wins for him or Louisville and if Bridgewater is as good as people say he should be destroying a lot of the teams he plays with the offense he has.

Since some seem to be a defensive stats guy, Louisville is 3rd in the country in points given up. Does that mean they are a great defense with tons of talent, of course not! They would be lucky to have one or two defensive players drafted.... But still, they have a decent football team, good stable of running backs, decent defense on paper, really like Brown on the OL, and same with Miller. They have more than one good receiver and an athletic tight end and Parker is a stud at WR. So back again, considering who they play they should be winning by a lot bigger margins than they are. Thus the so so season comment.


Will Bridgewater be good at the next level? Possibly, but forget all of this best QB prospect in years thinking, because look back and he simply is not.
I think your slighting him a bit. I think in hindsight, it's clear Griffin was pumped up. There were many who criticized the hype train surrounding him. Newton as a prospect carried more upside but was not a better prospect than Bridgewater. Sam, idk, pretty debatable-the post season workouts really vaulted Sam's stock. I think Teddy's on the same level as Stafford, at this point in the process.
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Old 12-04-2013, 12:13 PM    (permalink
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Ozzy I'd like to hear where you have Bridgewater in this year's QB rankings? Personally I really like him as a prospect but it seems like you have a lot more experience scouting prospects than me so I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. So far all I've heard from you is that he's played lesser competition and he hasn't dominated them. I would disagree with the not dominating part though as his numbers are pretty ridiculous if you aren't overly focused on TDs and yards.
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Old 12-04-2013, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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Bridgewater is definitely a better prospect, in my eyes, than Sam Bradford was. Kinda surprised there are still people on the Bradford wagon.
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Old 12-04-2013, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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Bridgewater is definitely a better prospect, in my eyes, than Sam Bradford was. Kinda surprised there are still people on the Bradford wagon.
Bradford played a higher level of competition and still excelled. He measured around 6-4 235 with 4.7 speed and a 36 wonderlic score. Let's hold off a little before we find out if Teddy can match those numbers.
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Old 12-04-2013, 04:50 PM    (permalink
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Why do you have to be such a sensationalist about this? AJ McCarron might be the 6th or 7th best offensive player on the field at any given time (Both Kuandijo(sic), Steen, Cooper, Yeldon, Jones) so all of that "HE'S FACING AN NFL DEFENSE" stuff can go out of the window because his cast is just as talented. Also, this LSU defense is the worst statistically of the past 4 seasons, but that doesn't matter because the name brand carries a ton of weight, right? Because of all of those successful LSU defenders in the NFL, right? Or because you watch CBS on Saturday afternoons and eat up with whatever pro-SEC propaganda Verne feeds you?

There is not a single thing on the field that McCarron can do that Teddy can't, while Teddy is much more productive as the focal point of a less talented team. Teddy is a better and more productive player than AJ McCarron.
I agree with the bold. That's one of my main points. You are drafting a QB in the first round to be the best player on the field. McCarron's not that IN COLLEGE.

As for Bridgewater, I'm not sure why he's even being discussed... We can't talk about McCarron without including BW? Why? BW is going in the first round. McCarron would be lucky for the 3rd round... there's no discussion.

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I'm somewhere in the middle on this debate. Obviously you'd like to see a guy perform in a situation as close to an NFL setting as possible and therefore guys who succeed against better competition should get recognition for that. On the other hand I'll bring up the fact that the 2 Qbs who played in the Superbowl last season came from Delaware and Nevada so......
And Kaep was ALWAYS far-and-away the best player on the field. Same with Flacco. They both had unique, staggeringly elite NFL traits. They don't compare to McCarron either...

Again, why can't we discuss MCCARRON without so many other QBs popping up. Like, his game. Ya know. What scouts actually do - evaluate THE PLAYER.

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I think your slighting him a bit. I think in hindsight, it's clear Griffin was pumped up. There were many who criticized the hype train surrounding him. Newton as a prospect carried more upside but was not a better prospect than Bridgewater. Sam, idk, pretty debatable-the post season workouts really vaulted Sam's stock. I think Teddy's on the same level as Stafford, at this point in the process.
I just have to point out how wrong this is. Come on. RGIII was a PROLIFIC quarterback prospect. His career going the way it has since the injury has nothing to do with him as a prospect. The only thing that was "hyped up" was his ability to stay healthy, which many of us questioned. But a healthy RGIII with his 4.3 wheels, elite deep ball, and added bulk? He was a staggering player in college and an AMAZING prospect.



Anyway, this isn't the Bridgewater thread so my input on him won't be found here. I also want to do a lot more work on him. I watch Bama almost every week because they are No. 1 which is the only reason why I chimed in early in the draft process.

So to Ozzy's orginial point -

I agree with you that there are flaws in ALL of these QBs and this class as a whole might be a bit overdone media wise.

BUT

I do not think that in any way impacts McCarron's stock. He's not on the level of any of those guys. He's simply not nearly as talented, besides the other question marks I named. So I'm not sure why you even brought the sketchy state of the QB class (a point I 100% agree with) in the discussion of a guy that based on his own merits - unrelated to the class - deserves in ANY draft to be taken well below true franchise QB prospects.
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Old 12-04-2013, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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Bradford played a higher level of competition and still excelled. He measured around 6-4 235 with 4.7 speed and a 36 wonderlic score. Let's hold off a little before we find out if Teddy can match those numbers.
It's not about the numbers. Bradford was the capable pilot of an offensive juggernaut at Oklahoma while he was there. It's not just the level of competition you play against, but the level of competition supporting you. He had NFL linemen, receivers, and running backs and a lot of his yardage was YAC from his talented teammates. Level of competition is more relevant when you're leading an inferior team over a superior opponent. That's why the bowl game against Florida was so huge for Teddy last year. I don't really care how he measures against Bradford, either, because there are plenty of QBs with nice triangle numbers who haven't done anything. For what it's worth, Teddy looks faster and I like his presence and pocket mobility better.

Is Teddy playing with any legitimate NFL talent right now? In his mega-season of 2008, the one that made people say, "These stats are so huge, Bradford must be an NFL franchise QB," he had Phil Loadholt on one side (started 73 of 73 games in the NFL), and Trent Williams, one of the best tackles in the NFL, on the other side. He had DeMarco Murray behind him. He was throwing to Jermaine Gresham and Ryan Broyles. That was one of the most talented offensive teams ever. He was Matt Leinart with more athleticism and a better work ethic. Sure, he played at a higher level of competition than Teddy, but tons of guys have put up huge numbers in BCS conferences and still failed to rise to the top of the NFL. It just isn't a direct correlation; there's other things a player has to have, that Sam Bradford hasn't shown, and that I think Teddy has. Teddy takes more downfield shots and makes them. I think his arm is a little bigger. I think he stays poised under pressure better and is more creative.

There was never much chance to see Bradford under pressure at Oklahoma, and he's endured a ton of it with the Rams, and hasn't dealt with it very well. He put up huge numbers throwing shallow crossing routes and screens at Oklahoma, but against NFL defenses and with players who aren't a level better than the defenders trying to guard him, he's among the lowest YPA in the league. He is solid and doesn't make huge mistakes, but he's always relied on his playmakers making big plays so he doesn't have to. Bridgewater makes those big plays - you don't have to project him and guess whether he will. He already does. It's not really a question of whether Sam excelled or not - he did. It just wasn't indicative of future NFL success, because what he excelled at was not what is required of an NFL quarterback. At least, a quarterback who possesses that elusive quality of being able to "raise the level of his teammates." We have never seen Bradford do that. It's pretty obvious right now that the reason he put up huge numbers in college was because he was playing with NFL talent in the Big 10. Talk about level of competition, eh?

Edit: also think the point I'm making here piggybacks pretty seamlessly to what gpngc's saying about McCarron. I think McCarron looks like he belongs on an NFL roster, but he's yet to show me anything that would make me pick him in the first if I'm a QB-needy team. First round quarterbacks need to be the best player on their team, unless they're playing with someone like Sammy Watkins or Mike Evans. (And even then, it should at least be a real argument between "who makes who.")

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Old 12-05-2013, 06:59 AM    (permalink
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SolidGold Ozzy, what do you think of Bortles? Same conference as Teddy and is leading UCF to a dream season.
Bortles I like, he shows a lot of toughness and ability to move the football. Is a very good runner and makes plays with his feet in the open field and in the pocket keeping plays alive. Has a decent arm. Would like to see more out of him passing the ball at times but potentially he could be really good. If he comes out early it will be tough though this year with so many proven quarterbacks around him. If he comes back for another year at UCF and plays well, which will be hard surrounding all the hype he will have, but if he does he could easily be a 1st round pick.


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Newton as a prospect carried more upside but was not a better prospect than Bridgewater. Sam, idk, pretty debatable-the post season workouts really vaulted Sam's stock. I think Teddy's on the same level as Stafford, at this point in the process.
Newton I would take one thousand times over a guy like Bridgewater coming out. Newton is superior athletically, has a stronger arm, and is arguably more competitive, is a better leader and is far more charismatic.

And same level of Stafford? There is no way he is as good at Stafford was coming out, Stafford had one of the best throwing arms I have ever seen coming out. Bridgewater does not, simple as that.


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Ozzy I'd like to hear where you have Bridgewater in this year's QB rankings? Personally I really like him as a prospect but it seems like you have a lot more experience scouting prospects than me so I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. So far all I've heard from you is that he's played lesser competition and he hasn't dominated them. I would disagree with the not dominating part though as his numbers are pretty ridiculous if you aren't overly focused on TDs and yards.
I have him as the #1 quarterback prospect potentially this year, and he is lucky Mettenberger got injured because he could easily have climbed above him with strong workouts but that will probably not happen anymore, and Mariota could have climbed above him to potentially but that can no longer happen either.

But back again to the point just because he is #1 this year does not mean he is that good in the grand scheme of things. He might climb and perform great to end this season, but so far he is underwhelmed to me. I am not amazed by his arm strength and have no clue why he does not look as good or better than he did against Florida in the bowl game last year when he plays such weak competition.

Will see how it all plays out, who they play in the bowl game and how he does in that game.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:59 AM    (permalink
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He is the best QB prospect in years? Since when? If by "years" you mean last year only.

But in 2012 there were much more elite players in Andrew Luck and Robert Griffin III drafted, then year before that 2011 Cam Newton was drafted he was a better overall prospect. Then in 2010, was never a huge fan of the guy but Sam Bradford was a better prospect, and in 2009 Matthew Stafford is way more elite than Bridgewater, 2008 Matt Ryan... etc. etc.


So where you are getting this that he is one of the best in years I have no idea. And if he shocks everyone, and comes back for his senior season there is no way in hell Jameis Winston is not picked over him.


Is he good, yes, great, not sure on that. By elite I mean rare and looking at quarterbacks over the past years I would take over him there are a lot so he is not the best prospect in years.

For him to be improving his season, he obviously has to win out and win convincingly. The past two weeks has not been impressive wins for him or Louisville and if Bridgewater is as good as people say he should be destroying a lot of the teams he plays with the offense he has.

Since some seem to be a defensive stats guy, Louisville is 3rd in the country in points given up. Does that mean they are a great defense with tons of talent, of course not! They would be lucky to have one or two defensive players drafted.... But still, they have a decent football team, good stable of running backs, decent defense on paper, really like Brown on the OL, and same with Miller. They have more than one good receiver and an athletic tight end and Parker is a stud at WR. So back again, considering who they play they should be winning by a lot bigger margins than they are. Thus the so so season comment.


Will Bridgewater be good at the next level? Possibly, but forget all of this best QB prospect in years thinking, because look back and he simply is not.
As a prospect, I would definitely rate him a notch below Luck and RG111, they were special. Newton only did it for 1 season and had a questionable combine, so there were definitely some question marks against him, but I would still put him slightly ahead of Bridgewater. As for Bradford and Stafford, at best they are about equal to Bridgewater as prospects, as both had serious question marks about them.

Bridgewater still has an unknown ceiling and it will remain so till the post season, when he will finally get to show his talent on equal footing with prospects who went to bigger football schools. It could just as easily push him up the ranking boards as pull him down, as it is with every talent.

It would take an awful post season to keep him from being the 1st guy chosen in the draft, and for me, going #1 in the draft is as good as it gets, so I won't be downgrading him until he shows he doesn't belong in that conversation.
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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It would take an awful post season to keep him from being the 1st guy chosen in the draft, and for me, going #1 in the draft is as good as it gets, so I won't be downgrading him until he shows he doesn't belong in that conversation.
True, but say the Jaguars get the first pick in the draft, I doubt he just goes in and totally changes that team around because of the roster there currently. If he gets on Houston might be a little different story because they have a much better roster, but it will depend on a lot of the situation he is in to how successful he is.

Clowney though still should be considered #1 overall potentially, depends on who it is, but Minnesota depending on what they do at QB and especially Washington or Oakland could use him along with Cleveland. And sure he has not put up the sack numbers that most expected but the kid destroys running plays and for a pass rush specialist that is very impressive. Kid can just knife through the offensive line and blow up running plays like few players can, has really added that to his game. He should be a star at the next level along with Anthony Barr. Those are two top of the line elite pass rushers that are arguably far more rare at their position than Teddy Bridgewater is.
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:11 PM    (permalink
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Bridgewater on the Texans could be a force.
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:11 PM    (permalink
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Edit: nvm.
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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I like McCarron, but he's got a noodle arm.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:11 PM    (permalink
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Bridgewater on the Texans could be a force.
Bridgewater + Adrian Peterson

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Old 12-05-2013, 10:48 PM    (permalink
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I see McCarron on the Vikings. Good O-line, star RB, a few good receivers, decent defense. It would be the closest thing to his college career.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:57 PM    (permalink
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Bridgewater + Adrian Peterson

And don't forget Patterson and the reliable vet Jennings. That would be an exciting offense.
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Old 12-12-2013, 01:46 AM    (permalink
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I see McCarron on the Vikings. Good O-line, star RB, a few good receivers, decent defense. It would be the closest thing to his college career.
It would be like having Ponder playing all over again.
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Old 12-12-2013, 01:48 AM    (permalink
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The problem with McCarron is he almost never got hit. His offensive line gave him all day to throw and that made him look better then he really is. He is what he is a game manager who can carve a nice niche as a backup QB.
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Old 12-12-2013, 07:14 AM    (permalink
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The problem with McCarron is he almost never got hit. His offensive line gave him all day to throw and that made him look better then he really is. He is what he is a game manager who can carve a nice niche as a backup QB.
I agree, McCarron is a Ponder clone but may be at least as good as Alex Smith. The trouble is you just don't know how he will perform once he is facing an NFL pass rush and not standing clean all game long as is the story in Alabama.
He may turnout to be a NFL starting QB but you just don't know if his noodle arm will ever permit him to be more than a game manager.
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