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Old 02-13-2014, 07:10 PM    (permalink
Jas
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Originally Posted by dan77733 View Post
As a 49ers fan, I would have no problem trading my first second round draft pick for Claiborne. Still under a cheap rookie contract for two more years with an option for a fifth year and still young enough to become good. With the Cowboys, I would say that it has more to do with their defensive scheme, horrible safeties and that its changed the first two years of his career.

Better chance though of seeing Carr get released than Claiborne getting traded.
I would take a 2nd for him.

Interesting you would propose that, I just read an article on the subject of trading Claiborne.

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas-cowbo...e-mo-claiborne

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Old 02-14-2014, 07:54 AM    (permalink
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By "struggling" do you mean he's not playing at a Revis/Sherman level or that he's actually playing below average for a starting CB? A lot of fans seem to expect their team's CBs to shut down every WR, which is just not realistic in today's NFL.
Then you shouldn't draft him #6 overall if you can't expect a shutdown level of play from him.

What Claiborne is doing... you could find any number of 2nd round or 3rd round DBs that could do the exact same thing.

When you trade multiple draft picks to get into the top-6 picks to draft a CB or FS, he needs to be something special.

So due to his draft slot, yes, he is playing like a bust because of the expectations heaped on him as a #6 overall draft pick.
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Old 02-14-2014, 07:57 AM    (permalink
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Bleh. Claiborne will be fine. He didn't look bad when we actually pressed. We drafted him to pair with Carr in a press scheme and then Kiffin played them off the line of scrimmage with terrible safeties.

Why are we expecting corners to play well with ineffective players behind them, a lack of a pass rush in front of them, AND playing them in a scheme that is ill-suited to their abilities?

For a reference Brandon Carr looked terrible most of the time as well last year. Give him a year under Marinelli.
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Old 02-14-2014, 09:59 AM    (permalink
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Bleh. Claiborne will be fine. He didn't look bad when we actually pressed. We drafted him to pair with Carr in a press scheme and then Kiffin played them off the line of scrimmage with terrible safeties.

Why are we expecting corners to play well with ineffective players behind them, a lack of a pass rush in front of them, AND playing them in a scheme that is ill-suited to their abilities?

For a reference Brandon Carr looked terrible most of the time as well last year. Give him a year under Marinelli.
Exactly, this past year in general came down to three points of emphasis.

The first being Kiffin was too out of date to adjust to the changes that had happened in the NFL since he had left. I think Marinelli will be more willing to mix in man concepts in with zone looks. Not to mention he is going to have an emphasis in the entire defense being aggressive. I'll also put money that he will be pushing for pieces at his bread and butter expertise along the D-line. Adding a consistent pass rush will do wonders for helping out this secondary as a whole.

The second being the fact that injuries will amplify holes in defense. Most of the season was played with street free agents and a one armed Ware along the defensive line. That certainly gave QB's time to pick apart the secondary.

The third is someone has to eventually realize in this pass heavy phase of the NFL that you need good safety play to be effective. I still like Wilcox but think he would be much better as a SS and successor to Church. Adding someone with range and some type of deep coverage ability is key to helping out the corners.

I agree that Mo will be fine once he gets his body right. More then any other position outside of QB, corners depend on their confindence to play at a high level. Once he turns the swag back on, good things will happen.
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Old 02-14-2014, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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I would take a 2nd for him.

Interesting you would propose that, I just read an article on the subject of trading Claiborne.

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas-cowbo...e-mo-claiborne
I would definitely do that trade if I was the 49ers because drafting a rookie with that draft pick could go either way as well. I think Claiborne can still be a very good cornerback and worth the pick. I would also do this because I want Pryor in the first round and that would require trading up to get him. Pryor and Claiborne plus one or two other draft picks in the first three rounds would make me a very happy 49ers fan. Hell, if possible, I wouldnt even wait until the draft to trade for Claiborne, I would call Jones as soon as free agency opens. Or more likely, talk to him at the Combine.

49ers are most likely going to be losing Rogers, Brown, Wright and Cox. Acquiring Claiborne for a late second rounder would be a great move for my team.
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Old 02-14-2014, 05:06 PM    (permalink
Jas
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I would definitely do that trade if I was the 49ers because drafting a rookie with that draft pick could go either way as well. I think Claiborne can still be a very good cornerback and worth the pick. I would also do this because I want Pryor in the first round and that would require trading up to get him. Pryor and Claiborne plus one or two other draft picks in the first three rounds would make me a very happy 49ers fan. Hell, if possible, I wouldnt even wait until the draft to trade for Claiborne, I would call Jones as soon as free agency opens. Or more likely, talk to him at the Combine.

49ers are most likely going to be losing Rogers, Brown, Wright and Cox. Acquiring Claiborne for a late second rounder would be a great move for my team.
And with what he's shown so far we could use that pick to replace him and yeah it is hit or miss, but along with the fact that he hasn't shown elite coverage skills, he can't stay healthy. So if we were the teams GM's lol.

But they won't make that move, they will wait to see if he recovers, hopefully regains his confidence and can stay healthy.

Honestly, I'm interested to see how it plays out. I want the kid to do well, I really do, I'm just not certain if he has it.

Maybe the light will come on and he'll elevate his play.
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Old 02-14-2014, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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It doesnt matter, they have BW WEBB
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Old 02-14-2014, 05:42 PM    (permalink
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It doesnt matter, they have BW WEBB
B.W. was lost in his first season whenever he was out there, hopefully he shows more this year as well. He was used to cover slot receivers, but it was less than impressive. He needs some time to adjust to the NFL.
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:14 AM    (permalink
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I just don't blame Kiffin for this mess, Jerry Jones has to take the blame IMO. He hired Kiffin and Kiffin had to make do with an awful lot of personnel who couldn't be expected to play in a Cover 2 scheme. Heck, Jerry didn't even put the draft as a priority to bring in players who could really help put the Cover 2 defense in place. He used his 1st pick to help the offense.

Claiborne is a man to man cover CB, he is completely useless in a Cover 2 scheme which uses zone defense as its main formation and I seriously doubt Marinelli will change that a whole lot.

When you change from a 3-4 to a Cover 2 defense, you have to expect at least a 2 year process to find the right personnel but Jerry Jones just never considered that fact which is why he is such a poor GM, what is it, 17 or 18 years and counting since they were a successful franchise. Any other GM in the NFL would have been long ago fired for that type of incompetence, but of course Jerry owns the team.

Any thought that Claiborne is going to fit in a Cover 2 scheme is just wishful thinking, he's lost in that defense and needs to be traded while his value is still reasonable. In fact, the Cowboys will need to rebuild their personnel at a large # of positions to suit a Cover 2 scheme before that defense will be productive for them. It's a very effective defense against the pass but you had better have the proper personnel or it just won't work and changing the DC who will run it, isn't going to change the fact that the Cowboys lack the people for that scheme.

With an ego as big as Jerry's, he is never going to admit the Cowboy's problem is their GM. He'll just keep making changes to imply that it was somebody else's fault.
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:44 AM    (permalink
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I just don't blame Kiffin for this mess, Jerry Jones has to take the blame IMO. He hired Kiffin and Kiffin had to make do with an awful lot of personnel who couldn't be expected to play in a Cover 2 scheme. Heck, Jerry didn't even put the draft as a priority to bring in players who could really help put the Cover 2 defense in place. He used his 1st pick to help the offense.

Claiborne is a man to man cover CB, he is completely useless in a Cover 2 scheme which uses zone defense as its main formation and I seriously doubt Marinelli will change that a whole lot.

When you change from a 3-4 to a Cover 2 defense, you have to expect at least a 2 year process to find the right personnel but Jerry Jones just never considered that fact which is why he is such a poor GM, what is it, 17 or 18 years and counting since they were a successful franchise. Any other GM in the NFL would have been long ago fired for that type of incompetence, but of course Jerry owns the team.

Any thought that Claiborne is going to fit in a Cover 2 scheme is just wishful thinking, he's lost in that defense and needs to be traded while his value is still reasonable. In fact, the Cowboys will need to rebuild their personnel at a large # of positions to suit a Cover 2 scheme before that defense will be productive for them. It's a very effective defense against the pass but you had better have the proper personnel or it just won't work and changing the DC who will run it, isn't going to change the fact that the Cowboys lack the people for that scheme.

With an ego as big as Jerry's, he is never going to admit the Cowboy's problem is their GM. He'll just keep making changes to imply that it was somebody else's fault.
That seems to be the concept and perspective that most share and the reality maybe the cowboys defensive players just aren't very good, the scheme may not be the problem. They need to upgrade at certain spots, I agree.

I posted a couple of game review links during the season that showed that the real issue isn't whats called or the system in place but the players failing to execute in the system..i.e. blown assignments, just flat out getting beat by the opposing player time and time again.

Back to the topic of Claiborne, another misconception maybe that he's a press man corner when that isn't completely accurate, he played both techniques in college and won the Jim Thorpe award, so why is it a problem for him now?
Besides the 6th player chosen in the draft should be able to play man or cover 2 with no issues.

I think a lot of people are making excuses for him to this point including the player himself, it's time to step up.

He can't play off in zone coverage, well lets listen to mike mayock's evaluation of him and watch the film on draft day or go watch his college footage.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-draft/...Claiborne-No-6

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Old 02-15-2014, 06:58 AM    (permalink
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This is encouraging to see, he did make adjustments in his technique when he returned at the end of the season. It's just frustrating that he's still working on these things, like fundamentals and knowing his responsibilities, these things he should have down solid by now.

But we blame having poor safeties on this

http://cover32.com/cowboys/2014/02/1...borne-in-2014/
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Old 02-15-2014, 07:46 AM    (permalink
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I need to go back and check my old scouting report on him, Iirc really liked his quick twitch...
Have you seen his quick twitch since he came to the NFL?

What has happened to his quick twitch?

Living in Dallas, I've heard 2 years of bitching about this guy from the most loyal of fans, as well as some of the radio guys here.

They've never mentioned a quick twitch.

But I'd still take him.
Both Mike Jenkins and him were high draft picks at CB who seemed to never come close to reaching their lofty expectations.

I'd happily trade a mid-round pick for him if Dallas is ready to give up and acquire more picks this May. :)
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Old 02-15-2014, 08:10 AM    (permalink
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Have you seen his quick twitch since he came to the NFL?

What has happened to his quick twitch?

Living in Dallas, I've heard 2 years of bitching about this guy from the most loyal of fans, as well as some of the radio guys here.

They've never mentioned a quick twitch.

But I'd still take him.
Both Mike Jenkins and him were high draft picks at CB who seemed to never come close to reaching their lofty expectations.

I'd happily trade a mid-round pick for him if Dallas is ready to give up and acquire more picks this May. :)
Tough to show any quick switch when you have a gimped hammy. Had his best success in bump and run coverage where he could feel the wr and ride the route.

Really only gets himself in trouble when he gives too much cushion in off man coverage, there were times where he lined up 8-10 yards off the los. It is extememly hard to run that type of coverage and defend the underneath routes without a LB shading in zone coverage to that side. Once teams spot this and establish the short game it naturally sets up double moves and opportunities down field.

Mike Jenkins was a really nice player before his shoulder fell apart. Teams rarely targeted him when he was right, just seemed every time he made a tackle or landed funny pop went the shoulder.

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Old 02-15-2014, 08:23 AM    (permalink
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Tough to show any quick switch when you have a gimped hammy. Had his best success in bump and run coverage where he could feel the wr and ride the route.

Really only gets himself in trouble when he gives too much cushion in off man coverage, there were times where he lined up 8-10 yards off the los. It is extememly hard to run that type of coverage and defend the underneath routes without a LB shading in zone coverage to that side. Once teams spot this and establish the short game it naturally sets up double moves and opportunities down field.

Mike Jenkins was a really nice player before his shoulder fell apart. Teams rarely targeted him when he was right, just seemed every time he made a tackle or landed funny pop went the shoulder.
Too much cushion..cushion is the set up for jumping a route, granted you need help behind you if you gamble and miss but anyone see this kid use his skills and measurables to be aggressive. 6th pick in the draft!! C'mon
With that speed he should be able to recover from a double move and stay with a receiver.
You ever see him in practice drills..gets beat all over the field. This kid is playing tentative and scared, he has the skills but seems afraid to use them.

Ballhawking is as much mental as it is physical. He needs to start thinking that's my ball and start making some plays.

I don't think it's too late yet, but this is a huge season for him.

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Old 02-15-2014, 08:40 AM    (permalink
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Have you seen his quick twitch since he came to the NFL?

What has happened to his quick twitch?

Living in Dallas, I've heard 2 years of bitching about this guy from the most loyal of fans, as well as some of the radio guys here.

They've never mentioned a quick twitch.

But I'd still take him.
Both Mike Jenkins and him were high draft picks at CB who seemed to never come close to reaching their lofty expectations.

I'd happily trade a mid-round pick for him if Dallas is ready to give up and acquire more picks this May. :)
Thank you, and yes, 2 years and two picks!!! One was a poorly thrown cam newton pass in the end zone, the other was perhaps his best play as pro against peyton manning where he actually showed some of what you'd expect. He was playing off the LOS watching the receiver and QB all the way, the pass wasn't great, underthrown, but he went up and got it.

I happen to like the position, probably my favorite on the field, when done right.
I just want Mo to get it together and be a playmaker.

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Old 02-15-2014, 12:18 PM    (permalink
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Interesting stuff, but has anybody ever thought that the cushion he gives is what the DC wants, I don't think a player plays in a way that the DC doesn't want him too. The Cover 2 defense requires excellent Safeties, CB's just aren't that important in that defense since they are mostly asked to play zone. All deep patterns are the Safeties responsibility in the Cover 2 and that is why they must be great athletes. CB's must be solid tacklers and be comfortable playing in the zone scheme. That simply isn't Claiborne's strong points and I just don't think he will ever be solid in it. Most Cover 2 CB are slower, bigger types who are great tacklers. That isn't how I would describe Claiborne.

I can see the Cowboys searching for the right type of Safeties, the right type of CB's and the right type of DLmen before they can be an effective in the Cover 2 scheme. Just hiring a Cover 2 DC won't get the job done. No doubt injuries robbed Kiffin of his 2 best DLmen and MLB who all suited a Cover 2 defense but the rest of the defense still needs better personnel IMO.

Again, IMO, Jerry made a horrendous mistake in switching form a 3-4 to a Cover 2 defense without the personnel for it, Romo only has a couple of more opportunities to lead this team to the playoffs but without a solid defense, it just isn't going to happen, that window of opportunity is closing and by the time the Cowboy have a good defense, Romo will be retiring and the Cowboys will have to rebuild their offense. That is why Jerry Jones is such a terrible GM, he just doesn't have a clue on how to build a winner. He spent a good deal of money to bring in 2 solid man cover CB's then switched to a defense scheme where CB's are a secondary position????????? He just doesn't know what he is doing, pure and simple.
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Old 02-15-2014, 01:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
Interesting stuff, but has anybody ever thought that the cushion he gives is what the DC wants, I don't think a player plays in a way that the DC doesn't want him too. The Cover 2 defense requires excellent Safeties, CB's just aren't that important in that defense since they are mostly asked to play zone. All deep patterns are the Safeties responsibility in the Cover 2 and that is why they must be great athletes. CB's must be solid tacklers and be comfortable playing in the zone scheme. That simply isn't Claiborne's strong points and I just don't think he will ever be solid in it. Most Cover 2 CB are slower, bigger types who are great tacklers. That isn't how I would describe Claiborne.

I can see the Cowboys searching for the right type of Safeties, the right type of CB's and the right type of DLmen before they can be an effective in the Cover 2 scheme. Just hiring a Cover 2 DC won't get the job done. No doubt injuries robbed Kiffin of his 2 best DLmen and MLB who all suited a Cover 2 defense but the rest of the defense still needs better personnel IMO.

Again, IMO, Jerry made a horrendous mistake in switching form a 3-4 to a Cover 2 defense without the personnel for it, Romo only has a couple of more opportunities to lead this team to the playoffs but without a solid defense, it just isn't going to happen, that window of opportunity is closing and by the time the Cowboy have a good defense, Romo will be retiring and the Cowboys will have to rebuild their offense. That is why Jerry Jones is such a terrible GM, he just doesn't have a clue on how to build a winner. He spent a good deal of money to bring in 2 solid man cover CB's then switched to a defense scheme where CB's are a secondary position????????? He just doesn't know what he is doing, pure and simple.
I'm not debating whether Jones knows what he's doing because thats a different topic and every question about the team usually leads to that subject.
Overall, that may or may not be the real cause of the teams mediocrity, but I don't want to focus solely on that.

We didn't play consistently in a zone coverage, they did mix it up fairly often with man, maybe not enough, but regardless, Mo, isn't making many plays.

If and when he does play. As the entire defense has had some kind of injury bug the past two seasons.
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Old 02-16-2014, 05:12 AM    (permalink
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I thought the other knock on him coming out was that his learning capabilities were visual and he's not easily teachable?

Not to put him down in any way. But maybe that issue is much more difficult to overcome in the Pro's then it was at the College level?
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Old 02-16-2014, 06:39 AM    (permalink
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I thought the other knock on him coming out was that his learning capabilities were visual and he's not easily teachable?

Not to put him down in any way. But maybe that issue is much more difficult to overcome in the Pro's then it was at the College level?
Yeah, I think D-unit mentioned in his comment Mo's possible lack of intelligence for picking up the technique in the scheme change.

I know the wonderlic was less than impressive but he kind of shrugged it off.

He supposedly has a learning disability, which begs the question, how did he even get through college, but I think we know how he got through.

Anyway, I guess that can definitely account for his difficulty understanding and transitioning to the kiffin defense and why he looks tentative and a bit unsure out there at times..injuries certainly don't help.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...aughing-matter

This is a good article about why to stay optimistic.

http://thelandryhat.com/2014/01/26/m...surprise-2014/

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Old 02-16-2014, 09:17 AM    (permalink
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Instead of playing off with too much cushion, how would Mo fare in the Seattle scheme where he's asked to grab, hold, tug, pull on the arm or jersey of the WR from the LOS all the way down the field to keep the WR close?

Sherman has perfected that, although he's smarter, went to Stanford.

Never gonna confuse an LSU education with Stanford.
But on the field, Geaux Tigers.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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Instead of playing off with too much cushion, how would Mo fare in the Seattle scheme where he's asked to grab, hold, tug, pull on the arm or jersey of the WR from the LOS all the way down the field to keep the WR close?

Sherman has perfected that, although he's smarter, went to Stanford.

Never gonna confuse an LSU education with Stanford.
But on the field, Geaux Tigers.
that's what this article pointed out http://cover32.com/cowboys/2014/02/1...borne-in-2014/ its said that when kiffin took the job he told the DB's to watch Seattle's style of play because that's what we were going for and it was used at times.. just not enough. Perhaps we'll employ it more next season.
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