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Old 07-12-2006, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jughead10
Denver got the better end. People can argue whether or not Bailey is the best corner in the game, but either way we know he is elite and top 5. You don't trade a top 5 corner for a RB unless that RB is the second coming of Jim Brown or Walter Payton. People seem to be all over Portis, but the truth is the Redskins could probably get a lot of guys to give similar production to what Portis is doing.
I read somewhere that Portis, if he keeps this pace up could end up beating Emmit Smiths all-time rushing record. just a side thought
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:13 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jughead10
Denver got the better end. People can argue whether or not Bailey is the best corner in the game, but either way we know he is elite and top 5. You don't trade a top 5 corner for a RB unless that RB is the second coming of Jim Brown or Walter Payton. People seem to be all over Portis, but the truth is the Redskins could probably get a lot of guys to give similar production to what Portis is doing.
I read somewhere that Portis, if he keeps this pace up could end up beating Emmit Smiths all-time rushing record. just a side thought
I think that is if he kept up the pace he set in Denver. That pace has significantly slowed down in Washington. He is also getting a ton of carries and I doubt he holds together long enough to do it. He is getting yards but his YPC is down.
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:27 AM    (permalink
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dead even. Bell is not improving that much.
do you occasionally think about what you're going to post, or do you just say things and hope no one calls you on the nonsense?
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:31 AM    (permalink
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Denver thought they could plug in any decent RB and have a good running game, which is kind of true, but Portis had a chance to put up unheard of numbers in Denver. I definitely don't think Washington got the better end of the trade, but I also don't think Denver should have traded Portis.
out of curiousity, did you see our pass defense, pre-Champ? our secondary was trash.
I can't honestly say that I did, but based only on the stats, the secondary's performance has dropped. In 2003 (pre-Champ), Denver gave up 177 pass YPG. Those numbers grew to 184 YPG in 2004 (with Champ) and 228 this past season. I know stats aren't everything, though. I'm just thinking Portis could have been really special with Denver's blocking scheme.
part of the problem with those stats is that denver got passed on at a nearly 2-1 clip last year alone.

additionally, being that we had no pass rush whatsoever unless we brought multiple linebackers, and that the safety help was next to non-existent, i'm not sure that pure stats can give an accurate assessment of the way the defense played.
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:36 AM    (permalink
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I'm an avid Redskin fan and in spite of that I have to admit that Denver got the better of the deal. They got a shutdown corner and a 2nd round pick which they used to draft what should now be their starting running back . The Skins had to trade Champ though because he obviously did not want to be there anymore . So the got the best deal available and getting Portis is a very good deal . I predict that he will have a great year this year in Saunders scheme and I predict he will have a better year than Larry Johnson. Still in all two Starters one of whom is the best Corner in the NFL for 1 star running back makes me feel like Denver got the bettter of the trade .
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Old 07-12-2006, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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Denver got the better end. People can argue whether or not Bailey is the best corner in the game, but either way we know he is elite and top 5. You don't trade a top 5 corner for a RB unless that RB is the second coming of Jim Brown or Walter Payton. People seem to be all over Portis, but the truth is the Redskins could probably get a lot of guys to give similar production to what Portis is doing.
I read somewhere that Portis, if he keeps this pace up could end up beating Emmit Smiths all-time rushing record. just a side thought
I think that is if he kept up the pace he set in Denver. That pace has significantly slowed down in Washington. He is also getting a ton of carries and I doubt he holds together long enough to do it. He is getting yards but his YPC is down.
Ok, this is the short explanation. His first year he was getting used to a new system. In Denver he had been running the same system in college. In Washington he was in a power run game that didn't fit him. The second season he gained weight, and became effective in it, running a good 4.3 ypc. Next season he will be in an offense that suits him. He lost weight so he can get the explosion back.
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Old 07-13-2006, 12:40 AM    (permalink
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it depends on how tatum bell does as a running back
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Old 07-13-2006, 02:06 AM    (permalink
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I'm going to say even. Don't get me wrong Bronco fans, I love Champ Baily and think he is invaluable to the team. However, Clinton Portis was a superstar RB. Bell, Droughns, Dayne, Q imo are all average RBs playing behind a fantastic line. Portis was a fantastic RB running behind a fantastic line. In his FIRST season he averaged 5.5 ypc and gained 1500 yards. In his second season, he was averaging again 5.5 ypc, and if he didn't get injured, he would've ended with 1958 yards... but, given that 2000 yards is a major milestone, the Broncos probably would've let Portis have more touches to reach that mark... meaning that he could've reached 2000 yards in his second season!

Our running game has still been one of the tops w/o Portis, but against good defenses, our running game does struggle mightily. Pitt completely shut down our running game. Basically, our running game has been nonexistant in the playoffs, and our pass defense has been scorched against the Colts and even Pitt (although I'm not blaming this on Champ since other factors do take into a ccount).

Basically, although we strengthened our biggest need at the time in CB, we lost a player who could've broke many RB records with the Broncos. While I love Champ, whenever I see Portis playing in Washington, I miss his dynamic play in Denver. Bell is solid, but he is no Portis.
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Old 07-13-2006, 03:10 AM    (permalink
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I think its pretty much even, but if I had to give a slight advantage, I'd give it to Denver.
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Old 07-13-2006, 03:20 AM    (permalink
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Any running back can succeed in Denver so they got an excellent quarterback for an excellent running back. Denver lost that home run threat in Portis, but got a top CB.
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Old 07-18-2006, 10:02 PM    (permalink
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was a tough desicion because they are both great starters in the nfl but champ and tatum outdoes clinton

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Old 07-18-2006, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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I'm going to say even. Don't get me wrong Bronco fans, I love Champ Baily and think he is invaluable to the team. However, Clinton Portis was a superstar RB. Bell, Droughns, Dayne, Q imo are all average RBs playing behind a fantastic line. Portis was a fantastic RB running behind a fantastic line. In his FIRST season he averaged 5.5 ypc and gained 1500 yards. In his second season, he was averaging again 5.5 ypc, and if he didn't get injured, he would've ended with 1958 yards... but, given that 2000 yards is a major milestone, the Broncos probably would've let Portis have more touches to reach that mark... meaning that he could've reached 2000 yards in his second season!

Our running game has still been one of the tops w/o Portis, but against good defenses, our running game does struggle mightily. Pitt completely shut down our running game. Basically, our running game has been nonexistant in the playoffs, and our pass defense has been scorched against the Colts and even Pitt (although I'm not blaming this on Champ since other factors do take into a ccount).

Basically, although we strengthened our biggest need at the time in CB, we lost a player who could've broke many RB records with the Broncos. While I love Champ, whenever I see Portis playing in Washington, I miss his dynamic play in Denver. Bell is solid, but he is no Portis.
keep in mind the salary demands. it would be difficult, no matter how ood he was, for us to justify a mega-deal for a RB, something we've been able to consistently produce. meanwhile, it DID make far more sense in the broncos situation to pay that much money for a top CB, something that at that point, we'd NEVER been able to adequately develop.

i get your point, and i think it ended up being a fair deal (assuming that tatum never achieves starting status), but only because i think both teams got a piece they'd been unable to develop on their own for a piece the other team was able to develop rather easily.

i don't necessarily miss portis as much as i miss him playing for peanuts.
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Old 07-18-2006, 10:37 PM    (permalink
 
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Im not sure which one i hate more between Roy Williams and Champ Baliey but he is the best corner in the game and is more valuable than clinton portis so denver got the better end of the trade but i dont think the redskins "lost" the trade.
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Old 07-18-2006, 10:50 PM    (permalink
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Denver thought they could plug in any decent RB and have a good running game, which is kind of true, but Portis had a chance to put up unheard of numbers in Denver. I definitely don't think Washington got the better end of the trade, but I also don't think Denver should have traded Portis.
out of curiousity, did you see our pass defense, pre-Champ? our secondary was trash.
I can't honestly say that I did, but based only on the stats, the secondary's performance has dropped. In 2003 (pre-Champ), Denver gave up 177 pass YPG. Those numbers grew to 184 YPG in 2004 (with Champ) and 228 this past season. I know stats aren't everything, though. I'm just thinking Portis could have been really special with Denver's blocking scheme.
part of the problem with those stats is that denver got passed on at a nearly 2-1 clip last year alone.

additionally, being that we had no pass rush whatsoever unless we brought multiple linebackers, and that the safety help was next to non-existent, i'm not sure that pure stats can give an accurate assessment of the way the defense played.

And since we were almost always in the lead, opponents couldnt exactly run on us if they wanted to win. And ST21, I agree, nobody lost the trade, but IMO denver won more. It was a great trade for both teams, but they had 2 RBs combine for nearly 2000 yards last year, so Portis wasn't "expendable" but it wasnt the end of the world when we lost him. Plus, getting one of the top CBs in the NFL has bolstered the pass defense.
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Old 07-18-2006, 11:25 PM    (permalink
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Bell averaged like 1.2 YPC or something ridiculous in short yardage situations last year :shock:
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Old 07-18-2006, 11:26 PM    (permalink
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on his 6 carries? boy, that's meaningful. :roll:
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Old 07-18-2006, 11:32 PM    (permalink
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Dead even. Neither team lost anything in terms of production from either position. Denver gets a slight edge because they lacked a true shutdown corner, but on the same note the Redskins lacked a good runningback.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:23 AM    (permalink
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Denver hands down no biased here


Champ,Bell for Portis

Champ best corner in the game, bell who has improved each season and should start this year.....we are comming of 2 2100 yard rushing seasons....

Champ alone is better then portis...then to throw in Bell who will contribute or start...makes it lopsided as any HB that starts and stay healthy will put up good numbers...so i mean

neither team lost anything but denver has gained more, and portis has not been as productive in wash as he was in denver but champ has played better in den then in wsh
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