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Old 07-26-2006, 11:01 AM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Originally Posted by Dillen
bigblue, I cant disagree that Mlew and Dawkins are great safeties, and Lito is a solid #2 corner, but both Lito and Lewis were horrible last year. Just like to point that out.

Agree completely, there is alot of information that needs to be processed before you can make a decision.
I agree, which is why I had a hard time determining who is the best. Its really an unfair argument, because theres just too many variables in effect. You can make a strong case for all 3 of the guys I stated. No one is right and no one is wrong in this argument...the only way to settle this is by analyzing how they do this year. Even then, if Brown still doesn't get a good pass rush, how can we judge him you know? So I don't know...if I had to pick a guy I go with Newman, but I wouldn't get angry with anyone who disagreed with me.
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Old 07-26-2006, 11:09 AM    (permalink
Modano
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
I have pretty much stayed out of this conversation, but Im pleased with the way it turned out, most provided intelligent and logical insight to their arguments, and it was well presented. Here's my take.

Its very very difficult to state who's the best CB for several reasons. Its so dependent on other factors, that its very hard to make an honest assumption unless you study every play during the year for every team. Pass rush, how many times teams throw on you, how many times teams run on you, style of defense, how long youre on the field, level of competition, type of stadium (dome vs windy NE), how often your team blitzes, I can go on and on. Having that said, you can make some sort of assumption as to who is the best, but it will never be set in stone. Theres too many variables in place that can effect DB play to make a concrete analysis of who's the best.

Also remember the whole "stats" thing can be misleading. Newman "gave up no TDs", but he gave up a couple of near TDs. One play against Washington, he got burned by Moss (@ Wash) and Moss was considered down on like the 1 inch line. According to stats, Newman didn't give up a TD...but we all know that TD scored was on Newman...so raw stats can be misleading. It can be informative, but it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Now, who's the best? Its very close. You have compelling arguments for Newman, Springs, and Sheldon Brown imo. Brown plays with great safeties and a solid #2 corner. Springs plays with a ballhawk FS who can get his back and a developing stud corner in Rogers, Newman has 2 solid cover corners playing with him but does not have great safeties to help up top. Weighing the variables, I'm gonna have to say Newman in a close one over Springs, with Brown in 3rd. I believe that ultimately a CB is asked to not give up the big play. At the end of the day, thats the most important responsibility of a CB. And Newman did it the best, and he did it without great coverage safeties to bail him out. Its real real close, and I can't say for sure because of the variables that can effect DB play, but if you put a gun to my head and asked me who's the best, I go with Newman. Springs and Madison would be the best 2 years ago, but right here right now I have to give it to Newman.
Good post but Newman wasn't covering Moss. Glenn got burned by moss, Newman played the slot in the nickel defense..
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Old 07-26-2006, 11:41 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
I have pretty much stayed out of this conversation, but Im pleased with the way it turned out, most provided intelligent and logical insight to their arguments, and it was well presented. Here's my take.

Its very very difficult to state who's the best CB for several reasons. Its so dependent on other factors, that its very hard to make an honest assumption unless you study every play during the year for every team. Pass rush, how many times teams throw on you, how many times teams run on you, style of defense, how long youre on the field, level of competition, type of stadium (dome vs windy NE), how often your team blitzes, I can go on and on. Having that said, you can make some sort of assumption as to who is the best, but it will never be set in stone. Theres too many variables in place that can effect DB play to make a concrete analysis of who's the best.

Also remember the whole "stats" thing can be misleading. Newman "gave up no TDs", but he gave up a couple of near TDs. One play against Washington, he got burned by Moss (@ Wash) and Moss was considered down on like the 1 inch line. According to stats, Newman didn't give up a TD...but we all know that TD scored was on Newman...so raw stats can be misleading. It can be informative, but it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Now, who's the best? Its very close. You have compelling arguments for Newman, Springs, and Sheldon Brown imo. Brown plays with great safeties and a solid #2 corner. Springs plays with a ballhawk FS who can get his back and a developing stud corner in Rogers, Newman has 2 solid cover corners playing with him but does not have great safeties to help up top. Weighing the variables, I'm gonna have to say Newman in a close one over Springs, with Brown in 3rd. I believe that ultimately a CB is asked to not give up the big play. At the end of the day, thats the most important responsibility of a CB. And Newman did it the best, and he did it without great coverage safeties to bail him out. Its real real close, and I can't say for sure because of the variables that can effect DB play, but if you put a gun to my head and asked me who's the best, I go with Newman. Springs and Madison would be the best 2 years ago, but right here right now I have to give it to Newman.
Good post but Newman wasn't covering Moss. Glenn got burned by moss, Newman played the slot in the nickel defense..
Youre right, I looked back at the replays on youtube, it wasn't Newman. But I'm sure if you dig through the tapes from last year there had to be another instance where he didn't give up a TD officially, but it was sort of his fault. I was just using that as a reference as to how stats can be misleading.

I would like to point out another thing about Newman that people don't give him credit for. Its been said that Champ (ive said this as well) is great because not only is he asked to take on the best WR on the other team man up, but he also defends TEs like Gonzalez man up. Well, to Newman's credit, he's done the same thing with Shockey. And he shut him down. Shockey had only 2 big catches, and both were against Roy Williams (Williams didn't necessarilly get burned, but blew his assignment), but was locked up by Newman. So if we praise Champ for this, we should do the same with Newman. Also, he put the clamps on Steve Smith. Not many can do that in the league, let alone the NFC East. He should get the proper due for that too. Although an argument can be made that he owned Smith because Ware was owning Delhomme that game. This again goes back to the fact that its hard to truely evaluate a DB because of other variables. Would he own Smith if Ware wasn't pushing Dellhomme's $hit in? We'll never know...
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Old 07-26-2006, 01:39 PM    (permalink
LSUALUM99
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This is why football is both the best and the worst of the major sports to talk about amongst fans.

It's the best because there is such interdependence among the different facets of the game that it's nearly impossible to prove your point on any 'who is best' discussion. This lends iteslf to great debates and postulating by fans.

It's the worst because of that same interdependence.


Since I am a Cowboys fan I'll use Cowboy examples. Is Emmit Smith the greatest runner of all time or the beneficiary of a great offensive line? Was the line really that good or did an incredible runner with great instincts and vision make the line look better? I Aikman in the Hall of Fame because he had Emitt Smith keeping 8 in the box and Irvin on the outside? Did the defense that was so good in the 90's give Emmit and Aikman just more opportunities to work with a short field?

Was Barry Sanders a better running back than Emmitt? What about the fact that Barry Sanders has the most negative rushing yards of any running back of all time? Was this because of his OL or was his OL looking so bad because he improvised so much?


Or for another line of reasoning. We all know that having a strong pass rush improves your pass defense by increasing turnovers and decreasing the ability of receivers to get open. We also know that having good corners increases the amount of time that it takes for WR's to get open so that increases the effectiveness of a good pass rush as well.

Stats are misleading. What's better a pass for 15 yards on 3rd and 17 OR a pass for 2 yards on 3rd and 1? In the stat column one is better but on the playing field the other is more effective.

Should you count interceptions at the end of the year for QB's and then compare who is better? What about the INTS that were dropped by the DB's so just became bad incompletions. These were worse passes than those tipped by the WR that happen to bounce into the DB's hands. One is not the QB's fault the other is. But yet they don't count the same in the statistical category.

And finally, what was the responsibility of the CB? If the coach wants the CB to gamble for the pick because they are behind should you judge his play the same as the coach that wants the CB to play off because they are protecting the lead? You see, things like that don't show up in the stat colum but are directly related to the CB's abilities.
Honestly, one of the best posts ever read on this site. It is still my opinion that most of those metric stats are meaningless. I honestly don't think one GM in this league would look at those stats and judge anybody buy them. Especially when it came to say choosing between two players in free agency.
Thanks, and considering NYG are your favorite team, I'm sure it's genuine. After all, it's just a little bit harder to like a post from a Cowboy fan :).
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I just wanna warn you guys not to take TNew41 too seriously. He's....let's just say, special. He's fairly harmless, though. He just needs several years of seasoning before he tries to make any more points, is all.
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Old 07-26-2006, 03:30 PM    (permalink
 
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Lito will bounce back
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Old 07-26-2006, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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Lito will bounce back
I hope so, he's doing well at training camp this year. In 04 he made the pro bowl because we had a good pass rush, and our pass rush should be much better this season, so it's possible. He was god awful though last year.
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Old 07-26-2006, 03:38 PM    (permalink
 
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Lito will bounce back
I hope so, he's doing well at training camp this year. In 04 he made the pro bowl because we had a good pass rush, and our pass rush should be much better this season, so it's possible. He was god awful though last year.
ya with your oline qb will have to throw quick and he will jump the passes
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Old 07-26-2006, 03:43 PM    (permalink
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Lito will bounce back
I hope so, he's doing well at training camp this year. In 04 he made the pro bowl because we had a good pass rush, and our pass rush should be much better this season, so it's possible. He was god awful though last year.
ya with your oline qb will have to throw quick and he will jump the passes
Darren Howard, Jevon Kearse, and Trent Cole- That is a beastly 3 end rotation. I cede awesomeness to the Giants though Strahan, Umenyiora, and Kiwanuka decimates all.
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