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Old 06-19-2007, 06:32 PM    (permalink
duckseason
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I agree with everything you said, but we aren't completely in the dark. We know Aikman had one of the greatest offensive lines in NFL history. We know he had reliable receivers. I'm not trying to knock the guy, but I see a point where conventional and accepted belief of a player doesn't exactly match up with his career numbers.

As for Elway, I don't know a single quarterback who had numbers like that and took great care of the ball. That's just me though.
Yeah, I hear that. I think the argument that Aikman had such tremendous talent around him holds weight. I don't think he is the greatest QB ever. I just know that I haven't seen many guys with a better arm. Who knows if he could've won any Super Bowls with another team, and who knows whether Dallas would've won 3 without him. I just think that things like his accuracy should be evaluated based on what we saw him do with the football, rather than what the numbers say. If a guys numbers are bad, then I think that's telling. But Aikman had good numbers, and we've already been over all the things that affect those numbers and might keep certain guys from reaching certain plateaus.

As for Elway, I dunno. I think some guys are encouraged to go out there and just sling it. Especially back then. The game wasn't as refined as it is today. You can tell the passing games weren't quite as precise as they are now, just by watching old highlights. I mean, that's just one thought to consider. Because when you watch the guy play, he was obviously very accurate, and I don't think anybody threw with more velocity than he did. Hey, for all I know you could be right. I'm just saying that I don't think either of us know, and his stats don't reveal nearly enough information for us to make an informed evaluation.

Fun little argument though. You're still one of my favorite posters despite the disagreement.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:42 PM    (permalink
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I do suspect that you're right on the Elway situation. I think that he was encouraged to take risks, I'm just surprised that such risk taking didn't result in more touchdowns as well. For a guy who is spoken of so well, he spent 10 years throwing an interception for every touchdown. At the very least, I think that is something people need to realize.

As for Aikman, I suspect that his 1993 season permanently colored a lot of people's perspective of him. He completed 69% of his passes, which I'm sure was even more impressive in that day and age. He led his team to the Superbowl and took home the MVP. I don't want to say he wasn't accurate, because he obviously was, but I think a great deal of that talk was generated from 1993 alone.

It's kinda like how Phil Simms is widely considered one of the most accurate quarterbacks due to the amazing efficiency he delivered the ball with the Superbowl. Simms only had one season in which he completed 60% of his throws, and it was his last one.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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I do suspect that you're right on the Elway situation. I think that he was encouraged to take risks, I'm just surprised that such risk taking didn't result in more touchdowns as well. For a guy who is spoken of so well, he spent 10 years throwing an interception for every touchdown. At the very least, I think that is something people need to realize.
Or maybe because it took him ten years to get a decent supporting cast and coaching.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:51 PM    (permalink
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Or maybe because it took him ten years to get a decent supporting cast and coaching.
I would accept that if the Broncos didn't win so many games. They averaged 11 wins over that 10 year span, and while that is certainly an argument in favor of Elway, I have to assume that he had some talent on both sides of the ball to win that often.

As for the coaching, Shanahan was his quarterback coach for most of his early career, and Reeves is generally highly thought of.
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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He had a good defense. That doesn't mean that he had adequate weapons, ones that he had later in his career when put up very good statistics.
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:25 PM    (permalink
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He had a good defense. That doesn't mean that he had adequate weapons, ones that he had later in his career when put up very good statistics.
This is very true, but I find it a bit suspect nontheless. Averaging 10 wins is no small feat, and considering the yardage Elway threw for, one would think that some more touchdowns would accompany that.
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:55 PM    (permalink
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he had zero offensive talent until 1989, when he finally got humphrey. why would you assume he had good offensive talent? simply because they won games? that's terrible. i could use the same logic and make the logical assumption that the raiders have zero talent on either side of the ball, by virtue of their recent 1st overall pick. i'm sure you'd take issue with that assumption, so why make a similar leap here?
Because someone was catching all those throws that lead to the yardage he accumulated. If I'm making the wrong assumptions about the kind of talent that offense had, I apologize, but it seems to me that winning with that kind of consistency takes more than a good defense.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:29 AM    (permalink
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Alright don't everyone start hating on McNabb like with what happened with Terrence Newman. That's just Neo being stupid and none of the Eagles fans agree with it.
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Old 06-20-2007, 09:44 AM    (permalink
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I know you were kidding.

Seriously? If that's not a joke, you might be the only person who didn't understand what I was doing there.
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Old 06-20-2007, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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A LOT of QBs had better years statistically than Elway, but McNabb has only been to one superbowl, and on the pace he's going, McNabb will not get close to Elway's (soon to be Favre's) career passing TD record. I wish he would though, I hate Mr.Ed's Guts.
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Old 06-20-2007, 11:51 AM    (permalink
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A LOT of QBs had better years statistically than Elway, but McNabb has only been to one superbowl, and on the pace he's going, McNabb will not get close to Elway's (soon to be Favre's) career passing TD record. I wish he would though, I hate Mr.Ed's Guts.
Um, you mean Marino's 420 TDs? Elway had 300.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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What about the fact that Elway is blonde? I think that clearly makes him better. And that, Mister, is a fact!

McNabb cant even trim his beard!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, Elway is not better than Mcnabb. He is far superior in every facet of the game than Mcnabb.

Anyone that can say they would rather have McNabb leading their team in his eighth year over Elway going into his eighth year needs to seriously consider the question and answer it truthfully.
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Old 06-20-2007, 08:16 PM    (permalink
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Because someone was catching all those throws that lead to the yardage he accumulated. If I'm making the wrong assumptions about the kind of talent that offense had, I apologize, but it seems to me that winning with that kind of consistency takes more than a good defense.
Indeed it does, good Quarterbacking... Elway didn't have his masterful weapons the team needed to get over the line until much later, we can all agree on that.

However, he didn't light up the statistics early because he had a lack of top tier offensive talent around him, have a look at a team like the chiefs. After Gonzalez I really find it hard to name three receivers. I can name the first three receivers on probably 28 teams. KC is one of the ones I never can, why? Because they're no body's but look at what Trent Green has been able to do with that, throw for 4000 yards almost yearly.

Trent Green, also couldn't manage to win games.

Elway, instead of having the great runningback's Green's always had, had the great defense, that was his horse to ride, and he supported it well enough to win games. In effect, he did everything he had to do and everything he could do to win games. The team around him simply wasn't good enough for many years to get them to the superbowl, when it was, He took them there, and he won.
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Old 06-21-2007, 12:49 AM    (permalink
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First of all, i gotta say i love McNabb, he's my favorite all time player...dont ask me why idk but i just like him a ton. I have his 3 jerseys the dark green almost black one, the green one and the white one.

Now, no way D.Mc is better than Elway. Elway did much more with what was probably less talented teams than McNabb did. Elway was a lot more clutch than McNabb is. Now Donovan is a good player and might have been elite in his prime but comparing him to Elway is rather pointless since we all know who was the better QB.
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Old 06-21-2007, 04:30 AM    (permalink
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Old 06-22-2007, 01:14 AM    (permalink
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McNabb got sick with a tummy ache in the big game and quit in the last two minutes. Elway went to Five and won two SBs. Deal with that.
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Old 06-22-2007, 03:16 AM    (permalink
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TO was injured during the playoffs the year they went to the superbowl and had absolutely nothing to do with them getting to the superbowl. Fact

His reputation? what as one of the more successful QB's in NFL history as far as being the QB on good ball clubs, making plays with his arm and feet and being a leader.

Did elway not have the intangables early in his career? was he considered a choke artist because his early career wasnt any more successful than McNabbs.

Again any logical non fan boy would have to say McNabb's first 8 years are better than Elways
Dude...take the time to re-read my post.

I came the closest in this thread to AGREEING with you.

I think many past NFL QBs, just like many athletes in other sports, have their reputations absolutely EXPLODE once they retire (usually positively). Many people will downgrade current players in favor of players from the past simply because past players have been gone long enough to have their flaws forgotten and their strengths praised. Bill James used to say this, and I don't think a truer statement has been said about athletes of yesteryear.

Look at Peyton Manning...in 50 years I'll bet that he'll be considered the greatest pure passer of all time...but right now you won't find many people from past generations who will agree. It's just a human tendency to cling to and romanticize the past.

Not only that...but football fans put a TON of value in Super Bowl wins. It may be slightly flawed, but not like...a ton.

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