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Old 10-11-2006, 11:50 AM    (permalink
 
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Originally Posted by Number 10
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.
Two things.

1-Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that Ben single handeldly took you to the Super Bowl?

2-Would you take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson...etc over Dan Marino because of a ring?

YES, considering that is the point of the game. :roll:
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Old 10-11-2006, 12:01 PM    (permalink
ricky bobby
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I can't wait to see how many of you guys are going to jump off the Rivers band wagon once he plays a bad game. Five games into his career, and i'm already seeing people calling him a future 2 time MVP, 2 time superbowl winner, etc. Hey guys, back to reality, as much as you dislike Manning for forcing a trade to the giants, he's proven to be the best QB so far, out of that draft class.
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Old 10-11-2006, 12:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by freddygoombatts
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Originally Posted by Number 10
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.
Two things.

1-Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that Ben single handeldly took you to the Super Bowl?

2-Would you take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson...etc over Dan Marino because of a ring?

YES, considering that is the point of the game. :roll:
Correct me if I am wrong.

But you would take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, and Brad Johnson over Dan Marino.
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Old 10-11-2006, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Number 10
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.
Two things.

1-Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that Ben single handeldly took you to the Super Bowl?

2-Would you take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson...etc over Dan Marino because of a ring?
Yes. I completely believe that Ben made this team what it was last year. He played great games in the playoffs. Against Denver and Indy he was great putting points on the board early. I don't think Rivers or Manning would have been able to do what Ben did last post season.

And to your question, No I would take Marino. But to be fair, Ben is better than all of those guys and Manning and Rivers will never be as good as Marino.
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Old 10-11-2006, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
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Originally Posted by Number 10
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.
Two things.

1-Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that Ben single handeldly took you to the Super Bowl?

2-Would you take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson...etc over Dan Marino because of a ring?
Yes. I completely believe that Ben made this team what it was last year. He played great games in the playoffs. Against Denver and Indy he was great putting points on the board early. I don't think Rivers or Manning would have been able to do what Ben did last post season.

And to your question, No I would take Marino. But to be fair, Ben is better than all of those guys and Manning and Rivers will never be as good as Marino.
Ben has not done anything yet to prove he will be a better player than Warner and Simms were.
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Old 10-11-2006, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ricky bobby
I can't wait to see how many of you guys are going to jump off the Rivers band wagon once he plays a bad game. Five games into his career, and i'm already seeing people calling him a future 2 time MVP, 2 time superbowl winner, etc. Hey guys, back to reality, as much as you dislike Manning for forcing a trade to the giants, he's proven to be the best QB so far, out of that draft class.
I'd love your exlanation as to why Eli is the best.

Ben has been so much better. He has been to the AFC Championship twice already. He led the team on the road and beat probably the 4 best teams in the league in the playoffs and superbowl last year.

Lets see Eli win a playoff game before we say he's the best.
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Old 10-11-2006, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jughead10
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
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Originally Posted by Number 10
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.
Two things.

1-Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that Ben single handeldly took you to the Super Bowl?

2-Would you take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson...etc over Dan Marino because of a ring?
Yes. I completely believe that Ben made th is team what it was last year. He played great games in the playoffs. Against Denver and Indy he was great putting points on the board early. I don't think Rivers or Manning would have been able to do what Ben did last post season.

And to your question, No I would take Marino. But to be fair, Ben is better than all of those guys and Manning and Rivers will never be as good as Marino.
Ben has not done anything yet to prove he will be a better player than Warner and Simms were.
Going to the AFC Championship in his first two seasons is nothing then right. How bout ROTY. Fact is Ben has now played two very good seasons and has a great career ahead on him.

The thought of him being a fluke was acceptable after one good year but after playing good his first two seasons its pretty obivous he will be a great QB for along time. Sure he is in s lump right now but you can't expect him to stay there with the way he has played his first two years.
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Old 10-11-2006, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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See he didn't play great. He was an average QB he wasn't rattled in the playoffs. now he has great tools and could become a great QB but just winning a lot doesn't make someone a great QB in a team game like Football.
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Old 10-11-2006, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
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Originally Posted by Number 10
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.
Two things.

1-Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that Ben single handeldly took you to the Super Bowl?

2-Would you take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson...etc over Dan Marino because of a ring?
Yes. I completely believe that Ben made th is team what it was last year. He played great games in the playoffs. Against Denver and Indy he was great putting points on the board early. I don't think Rivers or Manning would have been able to do what Ben did last post season.

And to your question, No I would take Marino. But to be fair, Ben is better than all of those guys and Manning and Rivers will never be as good as Marino.
Ben has not done anything yet to prove he will be a better player than Warner and Simms were.
Going to the AFC Championship in his first two seasons is nothing then right. How bout ROTY. Fact is Ben has now played two very good seasons and has a great career ahead on him.

The thought of him being a fluke was acceptable after one good year but after playing good his first two seasons its pretty obivous he will be a great QB for along time. Sure he is in s lump right now but you can't expect him to stay there with the way he has played his first two years.
The thought of him being a fluke is perfectly acceptable after watching what happens when the Steelers open up the offense for him and he is forced to pass the ball the same amount of times as normal QBs. Difference so far is Ben was drafted onto an already great team. Where most young QBs don't have that luxury, they are forced to take lumps while their team improves.

Ben and Simms are almost polar opposites to me. Simms had probably the greatest single Super Bowl performance for a winning QB, while Ben had the worst.
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Old 10-11-2006, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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I am not a Roethlisberger fan nor a Steelers fan. Do any of you think the Motorcycle Injury and the Appendectomy(sp) had an effect on his play this year? Those also come with psychological problems as well. It seems like he is getting trashed on this site but he does deserve some slack imo.
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Old 10-11-2006, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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For fantasy football I'd take Eli, but to win games I'd take Ben. But the way it's looking now, I'd take Eli for both areas.
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Old 10-11-2006, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Windy City Big Gamer Uno
I am not a Roethlisberger fan nor a Steelers fan. Do any of you think the Motorcycle Injury and the Appendectomy(sp) had an effect on his play this year? Those also come with psychological problems as well. It seems like he is getting trashed on this site but he does deserve some slack imo.
He has always gotten trashed on this site. Most fans here go off of stats and Ben doesn't have the best stats so theyn write him off without seeing many of his games to notice the plays that he actually does make.

No, I don't think its to motorcycle or the apendectomy that are effecting him. I don't remember hearing about any brian injuries in either of those and thats what has been hurting him, his decision making.

Ben isn't the reason this team is 1-3. A weak recieving core, bad offensive line play and bad defense have been the downfall of this team. Ben has played bad as well but he isn't the main reason we are doing bad. Watch our line get killed on every play and then look downfield and every reciever is covered. There is simply nothing he can do with the ball other than try to throw it up and make a play.
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Old 10-11-2006, 04:50 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.
Two things.

1-Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that Ben single handeldly took you to the Super Bowl?

2-Would you take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson...etc over Dan Marino because of a ring?
Yes. I completely believe that Ben made th is team what it was last year. He played great games in the playoffs. Against Denver and Indy he was great putting points on the board early. I don't think Rivers or Manning would have been able to do what Ben did last post season.

And to your question, No I would take Marino. But to be fair, Ben is better than all of those guys and Manning and Rivers will never be as good as Marino.
Ben has not done anything yet to prove he will be a better player than Warner and Simms were.
Going to the AFC Championship in his first two seasons is nothing then right. How bout ROTY. Fact is Ben has now played two very good seasons and has a great career ahead on him.

The thought of him being a fluke was acceptable after one good year but after playing good his first two seasons its pretty obivous he will be a great QB for along time. Sure he is in s lump right now but you can't expect him to stay there with the way he has played his first two years.
The thought of him being a fluke is perfectly acceptable after watching what happens when the Steelers open up the offense for him and he is forced to pass the ball the same amount of times as normal QBs. Difference so far is Ben was drafted onto an already great team. Where most young QBs don't have that luxury, they are forced to take lumps while their team improves.

Ben and Simms are almost polar opposites to me. Simms had probably the greatest single Super Bowl performance for a winning QB, while Ben had the worst.
I love how everyone thinks Ben was put ona superbowl calibur team. The Steelers were 6-10 the year they drafted Ben and they didn't make any huge improvements other than drafting Ben. Once they added Ben they went to 15-1. He wasn't just put on a great team. He is what made the team good.
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Old 10-11-2006, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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I don't even know why i put big ben into the conversation. 0 TDs 7 INTs, i'd be better off putting matt schaub as a choice. Hmm, would i rather have a qb that has 9 TDs and 5 INTs, and a completion percentage of 67%. ...... Or would i take a guy that has proved that if his team relies on him to win, he'll stink it up. I could've handed the ball off to Jerome Bettis and Willie Parker, and let the defense do the rest. Manning wins games, Ben Manages games, and manages them poorly at that.

Rivers has looked pretty good, i must admitt. But taking what you've seen of him in 5 games, and rating him above Eli Manning is just absurd. Some people are just too obsessed with potential. You'll jump off the band wagon once he puts a few bad back to back games together. By your reasoning, you'd also take Rivers over Peyton because eli's stats are better than peyton's this year.
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Old 10-11-2006, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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I can't wait to see how many of you guys are going to jump off the Rivers band wagon once he plays a bad game. Five games into his career, and i'm already seeing people calling him a future 2 time MVP, 2 time superbowl winner, etc. Hey guys, back to reality, as much as you dislike Manning for forcing a trade to the giants, he's proven to be the best QB so far, out of that draft class.
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Originally Posted by ricky bobby
I don't even know why i put big ben into the conversation. 0 TDs 7 INTs, i'd be better off putting matt schaub as a choice. Hmm, would i rather have a qb that has 9 TDs and 5 INTs, and a completion percentage of 67%. ...... Or would i take a guy that has proved that if his team relies on him to win, he'll stink it up. I could've handed the ball off to Jerome Bettis and Willie Parker, and let the defense do the rest. Manning wins games, Ben Manages games, and manages them poorly at that.

Rivers has looked pretty good, i must admitt. But taking what you've seen of him in 5 games, and rating him above Eli Manning is just absurd. Some people are just too obsessed with potential. You'll jump off the band wagon once he puts a few bad back to back games together. By your reasoning, you'd also take Rivers over Peyton because eli's stats are better than peyton's this year.
And that pretty much sums up this debate in a nutshell. You hit it on the head, although I do believe that we are all bashing Roethlisber a little too much.
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Old 10-11-2006, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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Eli Manning is a Lou Bega. Perpetual Irrelevence and Ron Popeil.
I think moneys. I think Eli is great now but not Elite. He may never be "elite" espn once said that lamar wouldnt. i think we need to buy the hopes of the onedays. Eli is a prospect of excellence. He could one day be hofer but imo he wont. phil rivers is better than eli and so is rexy grossmans. eli is better than alex smith and ben roethlisberger. tiki barber lifts the team whole. he is a hofer no doubt bout it. i think we need a special committee on the protection of jason campbells future commodities. for more info please contact Wall Street Johnson who is the ultimate fighter. eli is NOT better than hasslebeck, brees, or palmer. i classify him as great or good but not elite. he has the potentials. i wouldnt mind him becoming a floridian. ole miss develops great guys and players. ole miss rebels new feature back presents great futures. curty granderson>johnny damon. i think oakland sporting bay area athletics dominates regional sporting goods worldwide organizational duty. the elite prospects include: brady leaf, sal pasquerelli, lou mizz, and brock marion. bob sakamono once ate a horse. he is friend of kremer who owns kremerica. darren was an intern with kramerica. oil bladder contraption didnt work helllloooooooo.
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Old 10-11-2006, 07:46 PM    (permalink
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If anything, Ben recieved too much love on this site. I don't see how anyone can put in the claim that he gets bashed too easily. I'll try to sum up my thoughts briefly...


I admire Ben more than you believe, and as of right now I have him ranked as my #10 QB in the league right behind Eli. Prior to the 2004 draft, I was calling for Ben so that we could get our franchise guy and keep all of our picks, which we obviously could have used. But after watching almost every single one of both their games in the NFL, I am feeling much more secure with Eli at the helm than I would be with Ben calling the shots.

Physically, there is not too much of a difference. They both have similar arm strength in terms of short, intermediate routes and deep balls. If you want to give the edge to Ben there, be my guest, I won't fight it too hard because the difference, if any, is minimal. Ben is also faster and more effective outside of the pocket, a dimension I sometimes wish Eli had. So if you want to compare the two from a physical standpoint, I have to give a slight edge to Ben.

But where Eli really creates seperation in this debate is in the intangibles area. He has proved time after time that he can take the game into his own hands when it matters most and lead his team to victory. He never lets pressure get to his head, even though he is playing in arguably the most difficult market in the football world. His comeback victories and late game heroics are not luck because he continues to do the same thing time and time again. He also has a little "Peyton" in him in the sense that he studies to no end during the season and during the offseason. I have a buddy that works at the Stadium all year for practices and workouts and he said Eli was there more often than any of the coaches, including Coughlin. He worked his butt off in the film room and the weight room and I can really tell a huge difference in his play to this point. He clearly was not in the best physical shape last year and was not ready to throw the ball 500+ times, hence why he fell apart late in the year. Eli has not even come close to reaching his full potential because his work ethic parallels Peyton's, and sit there and think about how much Peyton has progressed since his second season as a starter.

Yes, I realize Ben has a ring, yada yada yada. I already stated that it does not take a special QB to win a Super Bowl to say the least. To say that the Steelers had a simple offense that relied on the running game and strong defensive play would be an understatement. It seems now that the running game is being contained, Ben is not even sniffing the success he had the past couple years. I know he will improve over the course of the season, but I don't see him maintaining the level of play his numbers indicated his first two years. His offensive line has been poor, but the Giants line was terrible against the Eagles and what did Eli do? He is able to make adjustments, something Ben still needs to prove. The running game is not there for the Steelers. Well, the running game has been up and down for the Giants, yet Eli has been playing consistently well. The WRs and TE play for the Steelers has been poor. Well, Plaxico Burress is dropping balls every week, Sinorice Moss can't get on the field, Tim Carter has had a few big drops and Shockey is very, VERY banged up. All I heard from the Steelers fans throughout the offseason was how underrated Hines Ward is and how Heath Miller is a legit playmaker. Come on now, you can't have it both ways.

That was a little bit longer than I was intending, but pick it apart if you wish.
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Old 10-11-2006, 07:47 PM    (permalink
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You said Eli Manning and late game heroics in the same paragraph. That's funny.
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Old 10-11-2006, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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I have an elite section of the Chronicles of Eli.

My rating per se once two four

Drew Brees>Rexy Grossmans>Philly Rivers>Eli Manning>Ben Roethlisberger>Alex Smith
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Old 10-11-2006, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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You said Eli Manning and late game heroics in the same paragraph. That's funny.
How? He's had a substantial amount of brilliance in the 4th quarter. He's easily the most clutch out of these 3 qbs in terms of coming from behind. That can't even be argued.
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Old 10-11-2006, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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You said Eli Manning and late game heroics in the same paragraph. That's funny.
I hope that was a joke, for your sake.
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Old 10-11-2006, 07:54 PM    (permalink
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I give Eli an A- for late game heroics. He does that snap well i see. His package isnt as around in him
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Old 10-11-2006, 08:08 PM    (permalink
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It seems now that the running game is being contained, Ben is not even sniffing the success he had the past couple years.
Yeah, like that playoff game at Indie or that AFC Championship game at Denver, the running game was really tearing it up then....err wait. I guess I must have imagined Ben winning two playoff games at hostile environments without a running game. And it isn't like Ben dinked and dunked his way to such efficient passing numbers, he led the entire NFL in ypa last year.
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Old 10-11-2006, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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In the end it is winning that matters and not stats. We'll see what QB leads his team to the most success.

As of now, I'll take the guy witha 5-1 playoff record and a ring over a guy that hasn't ever won , or scored a point in, a playoff game.
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Old 10-11-2006, 08:50 PM    (permalink
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In the end it is winning that matters and not stats. We'll see what QB leads his team to the most success.

As of now, I'll take the guy witha 5-1 playoff record and a ring over a guy that hasn't ever won , or scored a point in, a playoff game.
When evaluating QBs at the end of their careers, yes you can do that. But Eli is in his second year as a starter and Ben is in his 3rd. You can't use wins as the basis of your evaluation yet because you don't know what as a fluke and what wasn't.
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