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Old 11-08-2006, 06:31 PM    (permalink
MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
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Originally Posted by ricky bobby
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Originally Posted by Draft King

Ok, I'm sorry, but what the hell are you talking about??? Do you have any idea what you are saying?? You are actually quite possibly the dumbest member on this board right now. Vick's arm is incredible so I don't know where you get that idea from. He has arguably the strongest arm in the league and doesn't even struggle that severly with accuracy, his problems for the past couple of years have to do with his footwork, which he has improved drastically this year with the help of quaterback coach Bill Musgrave. Also your argument of taking away Vick's mobility is completly pathetic, why would you take away the best asset of a great QB?? That's like taking away Peyton's work ethic. If you don't have an argument that you can actually back up don't even try.
Vicks arm is incredible. Yeah, Incredibly horrible.

Career stats
62 TDs 46 INTs 76.2 rating
This years stats
11 TDs 7 INTS 79.0 rating

Gee what a great arm. Peyton Manning could do that blindfolded, with two broken legs and one arm tied behind his back (his right arm).

Now i know your argument will be either
a. Stats don't matter (It's a classic and it always cracks me up)
b. Look at his rushing numbers (In that case stick him in at RB and let Schaub take over the slinging duties.)

Oh and i forgot to mention his wowing 54.2 % career completion percentage. I'm amazed that you can actually come on here and call me the dumbest poster on this forum. You think that a guy with that kind of completion % has a good arm? And i'm the dumb one? Get real.
He has an absolute rocket. Possibly the strongest in the league. Actually, PROBABLY the strongest. And have you watched Falcons games? Living in Canada, I don't get to see a ton, but when I do see them, his receivers drop EVERYTHING. It seems like I could do a better job. But yeah, incompetent receivers, MUST BE THE QB'S FAULT. Not even Peyton would be able to do well with the stone hands Vick's receivers have. When Ashley Lelie is your best wideout, you have problems.
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Old 11-08-2006, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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these stats are not indicative of having a great or poor arm. they're much more indicatve of his ability to read coverage and his receivers ability to catch the ball. the td numbers can also be influenced by the fact that their coach's strategy in the red zone is to pound the ball.
Yeah the classic argument of having bad recievers. He has 3 first round picks starting at WR, Alge Crumpler, an All pro TE, and you would think that the superb running game would take the pressure off of the passing game, but no. You can argue that Marvin Harrison didn't make Peyton Manning, but Peyton Manning made Marvin Harrison. And how about Tom Brady tearing it up with a bunch of mediocre recievers his whole career? Having brains is part of being a good QB, and i've already said that Vick does not have what it takes upstairs to be an NFL QB.
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Old 11-08-2006, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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He has an absolute rocket. Possibly the strongest in the league. Actually, PROBABLY the strongest. And have you watched Falcons games? Living in Canada, I don't get to see a ton, but when I do see them, his receivers drop EVERYTHING. It seems like I could do a better job. But yeah, incompetent receivers, MUST BE THE QB'S FAULT. Not even Peyton would be able to do well with the stone hands Vick's receivers have. When Ashley Lelie is your best wideout, you have problems.
Yeah and i bet Larry Allen could sling that ball pretty far also. Recievers don't just drop the ball. Unless the reciever's name is Todd Pinkston or Terrell Owens. But i digress. If the QB put the recievers in good position to catch the ball, they would catch it.
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Old 11-08-2006, 06:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ricky bobby
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these stats are not indicative of having a great or poor arm. they're much more indicatve of his ability to read coverage and his receivers ability to catch the ball. the td numbers can also be influenced by the fact that their coach's strategy in the red zone is to pound the ball.
Yeah the classic argument of having bad recievers. He has 3 first round picks starting at WR, Alge Crumpler, an All pro TE, and you would think that the superb running game would take the pressure off of the passing game, but no. You can argue that Marvin Harrison didn't make Peyton Manning, but Peyton Manning made Marvin Harrison. And how about Tom Brady tearing it up with a bunch of mediocre recievers his whole career? Having brains is part of being a good QB, and i've already said that Vick does not have what it takes upstairs to be an NFL QB.
having first round picks at a position is also not indicative of talent. john elway couldn't turn marcus nash into an nfl receiver. for all of his accomplishments, steve young never turned jj stokes into a great nfl wr. dan marino couldn't help yatil green or randal hill.
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Old 11-08-2006, 06:45 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9
these stats are not indicative of having a great or poor arm. they're much more indicatve of his ability to read coverage and his receivers ability to catch the ball. the td numbers can also be influenced by the fact that their coach's strategy in the red zone is to pound the ball.
Yeah the classic argument of having bad recievers. He has 3 first round picks starting at WR, Alge Crumpler, an All pro TE, and you would think that the superb running game would take the pressure off of the passing game, but no. You can argue that Marvin Harrison didn't make Peyton Manning, but Peyton Manning made Marvin Harrison. And how about Tom Brady tearing it up with a bunch of mediocre recievers his whole career? Having brains is part of being a good QB, and i've already said that Vick does not have what it takes upstairs to be an NFL QB.
having first round picks at a position is also not indicative of talent. john elway couldn't turn marcus nash into an nfl receiver. for all of his accomplishments, steve young never turned jj stokes into a great nfl wr. dan marino couldn't help yatil green or randal hill.
Yeah, first round pick is a terrible argument for talent. Robert Gallery must be a great LT. Ryan Leaf' headin to the HOF. Mike Williams and Charles Rogers are the best WR duo in the NFL. 1st round picks do not equal good players, buddy.
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Old 11-08-2006, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9

having first round picks at a position is also not indicative of talent. john elway couldn't turn marcus nash into an nfl receiver. for all of his accomplishments, steve young never turned jj stokes into a great nfl wr. dan marino couldn't help yatil green or randal hill.
I'm in no way trying to offend you, but those names mean nothing to me. Way before my time. Also i'm not finding any statistics on "drops". I put them in qoutations because i'm not sure what exactly a drop is. If a player is triple covered and the ball skims off his finger tip? Is that a drop?
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Old 11-08-2006, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9

having first round picks at a position is also not indicative of talent. john elway couldn't turn marcus nash into an nfl receiver. for all of his accomplishments, steve young never turned jj stokes into a great nfl wr. dan marino couldn't help yatil green or randal hill.
I'm in no way trying to offend you, but those names mean nothing to me. Way before my time. Also i'm not finding any statistics on "drops". I put them in qoutations because i'm not sure what exactly a drop is. If a player is triple covered and the ball skims off his finger tip? Is that a drop?
No, but when a guy gets hit square in the hands and it falls out, that's a drop.
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Old 11-08-2006, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ChrisCybulski
Yeah, first round pick is a terrible argument for talent. Robert Gallery must be a great LT. Ryan Leaf' headin to the HOF. Mike Williams and Charles Rogers are the best WR duo in the NFL. 1st round picks do not equal good players, buddy.
Vick's recievers are not bad. Roddy White, Jenkins and Lelie (well not really him) would flourish with a decent QB. I mean how can you run your route seriously when you know that the numbskull under center is going to try to scramble after seeing that his first read is covered?
Now lets look at the so called "busts" and who their QB's were for the starts of their careers

Charles Rogers and Mike Williams - had the honor of catching passes thrown by the great Joey Harrington. They were so demoralized they couldn't even play when Kitna stepped in.

If i'm a calvin johnson or Jeff Samardjiza i amd crossing my fingers when the following teams are on the clock
- Titans
- Falcons
- Dolphins
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Old 11-08-2006, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ricky bobby
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Originally Posted by ChrisCybulski
Yeah, first round pick is a terrible argument for talent. Robert Gallery must be a great LT. Ryan Leaf' headin to the HOF. Mike Williams and Charles Rogers are the best WR duo in the NFL. 1st round picks do not equal good players, buddy.
Vick's recievers are not bad. Roddy White, Jenkins and Lelie (well not really him) would flourish with a decent QB. I mean how can you run your route seriously when you know that the numbskull under center is going to try to scramble after seeing that his first read is covered?
Now lets look at the so called "busts" and who their QB's were for the starts of their careers

Charles Rogers and Mike Williams - had the honor of catching passes thrown by the great Joey Harrington. They were so demoralized they couldn't even play when Kitna stepped in.

If i'm a calvin johnson or Jeff Samardjiza i amd crossing my fingers when the following teams are on the clock
- Titans
- Falcons
- Dolphins
Are you for real? Well you know what, I'm gonna support my argument with stuff I know. Maybe you'll follow. Again, I don't get to see alot of Falcons games. BUT, I've seen on NFL Network stuff, he drops back, AND HE LOOKS AT MORE THAN ONE RECEIVER. I saw several instances of him looking at one guy, seeing him covered, and then throwing to an open guy. He doesn't focus on one guy all the freakin' time. And saying you're hoping you don't get picked by those teams if you're Calvin is absolutely moronic. He has Reggie freaking Ball throwing to him, every QB in the NFL is better. And Charles Rogers loves his weed, and has zero work ethic. Mike Williams, overweight, not fast enough to get separation. THEY AREN'T GOOD.
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Old 11-08-2006, 07:10 PM    (permalink
ricky bobby
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Originally Posted by ChrisCybulski
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Originally Posted by ricky bobby
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Originally Posted by ChrisCybulski
Yeah, first round pick is a terrible argument for talent. Robert Gallery must be a great LT. Ryan Leaf' headin to the HOF. Mike Williams and Charles Rogers are the best WR duo in the NFL. 1st round picks do not equal good players, buddy.
Vick's recievers are not bad. Roddy White, Jenkins and Lelie (well not really him) would flourish with a decent QB. I mean how can you run your route seriously when you know that the numbskull under center is going to try to scramble after seeing that his first read is covered?
Now lets look at the so called "busts" and who their QB's were for the starts of their careers

Charles Rogers and Mike Williams - had the honor of catching passes thrown by the great Joey Harrington. They were so demoralized they couldn't even play when Kitna stepped in.

If i'm a calvin johnson or Jeff Samardjiza i amd crossing my fingers when the following teams are on the clock
- Titans
- Falcons
- Dolphins
Are you for real? Well you know what, I'm gonna support my argument with stuff I know. Maybe you'll follow. Again, I don't get to see alot of Falcons games. BUT, I've seen on NFL Network stuff, he drops back, AND HE LOOKS AT MORE THAN ONE RECEIVER. I saw several instances of him looking at one guy, seeing him covered, and then throwing to an open guy. He doesn't focus on one guy all the freakin' time. And saying you're hoping you don't get picked by those teams if you're Calvin is absolutely moronic. He has Reggie freaking Ball throwing to him, every QB in the NFL is better. And Charles Rogers loves his weed, and has zero work ethic. Mike Williams, overweight, not fast enough to get separation. THEY AREN'T GOOD.
I'm sick of arguing about Vick. I'm gonna let the stats speak for themselves. Nonetheless ESPN is still moronic. Jake Plummer, top ten? And when i listen to or watched ESPN a few weeks ago, all i was hearing was a QB controversy in Denver. Philip Rivers 4rth? Didn't we already go though this with Big Ben. They are only good because they have a superb surrounding cast.
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Old 11-08-2006, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ricky bobby
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Originally Posted by ChrisCybulski
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Originally Posted by ricky bobby
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Originally Posted by ChrisCybulski
Yeah, first round pick is a terrible argument for talent. Robert Gallery must be a great LT. Ryan Leaf' headin to the HOF. Mike Williams and Charles Rogers are the best WR duo in the NFL. 1st round picks do not equal good players, buddy.
Vick's recievers are not bad. Roddy White, Jenkins and Lelie (well not really him) would flourish with a decent QB. I mean how can you run your route seriously when you know that the numbskull under center is going to try to scramble after seeing that his first read is covered?
Now lets look at the so called "busts" and who their QB's were for the starts of their careers

Charles Rogers and Mike Williams - had the honor of catching passes thrown by the great Joey Harrington. They were so demoralized they couldn't even play when Kitna stepped in.

If i'm a calvin johnson or Jeff Samardjiza i amd crossing my fingers when the following teams are on the clock
- Titans
- Falcons
- Dolphins
Are you for real? Well you know what, I'm gonna support my argument with stuff I know. Maybe you'll follow. Again, I don't get to see alot of Falcons games. BUT, I've seen on NFL Network stuff, he drops back, AND HE LOOKS AT MORE THAN ONE RECEIVER. I saw several instances of him looking at one guy, seeing him covered, and then throwing to an open guy. He doesn't focus on one guy all the freakin' time. And saying you're hoping you don't get picked by those teams if you're Calvin is absolutely moronic. He has Reggie freaking Ball throwing to him, every QB in the NFL is better. And Charles Rogers loves his weed, and has zero work ethic. Mike Williams, overweight, not fast enough to get separation. THEY AREN'T GOOD.
I'm sick of arguing about Vick. I'm gonna let the stats speak for themselves. Nonetheless ESPN is still moronic. Jake Plummer, top ten? And when i listen to or watched ESPN a few weeks ago, all i was hearing was a QB controversy in Denver. Philip Rivers 4rth? Didn't we already go though this with Big Ben. They are only good because they have a superb surrounding cast.

TOTALLY agree with the Jake Plummer thing. BRING IN CUTLER!! And I think it would be good to withhold judgement on Rivers, I haven't seen much of him, but his stats look nice, and in some games he's really stepped up and won them.
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Old 11-08-2006, 07:17 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ricky bobby
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Originally Posted by ChrisCybulski
Yeah, first round pick is a terrible argument for talent. Robert Gallery must be a great LT. Ryan Leaf' headin to the HOF. Mike Williams and Charles Rogers are the best WR duo in the NFL. 1st round picks do not equal good players, buddy.
Vick's recievers are not bad. Roddy White, Jenkins and Lelie (well not really him) would flourish with a decent QB. I mean how can you run your route seriously when you know that the numbskull under center is going to try to scramble after seeing that his first read is covered?
Now lets look at the so called "busts" and who their QB's were for the starts of their careers

Charles Rogers and Mike Williams - had the honor of catching passes thrown by the great Joey Harrington. They were so demoralized they couldn't even play when Kitna stepped in.

If i'm a calvin johnson or Jeff Samardjiza i amd crossing my fingers when the following teams are on the clock
- Titans
- Falcons
- Dolphins
Perhaps you forgot about Roy Willams and how he played under the same situations and is now the best wide reciever in his division.
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Old 11-08-2006, 07:21 PM    (permalink
ricky bobby
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Originally Posted by ricky bobby
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Originally Posted by ChrisCybulski
Yeah, first round pick is a terrible argument for talent. Robert Gallery must be a great LT. Ryan Leaf' headin to the HOF. Mike Williams and Charles Rogers are the best WR duo in the NFL. 1st round picks do not equal good players, buddy.
Vick's recievers are not bad. Roddy White, Jenkins and Lelie (well not really him) would flourish with a decent QB. I mean how can you run your route seriously when you know that the numbskull under center is going to try to scramble after seeing that his first read is covered?
Now lets look at the so called "busts" and who their QB's were for the starts of their careers

Charles Rogers and Mike Williams - had the honor of catching passes thrown by the great Joey Harrington. They were so demoralized they couldn't even play when Kitna stepped in.

If i'm a calvin johnson or Jeff Samardjiza i amd crossing my fingers when the following teams are on the clock
- Titans
- Falcons
- Dolphins
Perhaps you forgot about Roy Willams and how he played under the same situations and is now the best wide reciever in his division.
I may have forgotten about him. But he didn't exactly flourish under Harrington either, he's having a great year because Mike Martz is running the greatest show of turf all over again in detroit.
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Old 11-08-2006, 07:43 PM    (permalink
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Did you watch any Lions game per chance? His rookie season Roy Williams was tearing it up making highlight reels all year but only played in like 12 games and a couple of those he was about 7th on the depth chart by half time because he was playing hurt. His sophmore season he had 8 touchdowns and had pretty good stats and again didn't start all 16 games. This year he is doing the same stuff in a more wide open offense that focueses only on him on passing downs pretty much. Martz plays favorites a lot of the time, Mike Furrey anyone? Point is, Roy Williams was great with Harrington and without him. His stats aren't miraculously better now than they were before, he is also in the year labeled as the breakout or deciding year for receivers a lot of the time.
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Old 11-08-2006, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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having first round picks at a position is also not indicative of talent. john elway couldn't turn marcus nash into an nfl receiver. for all of his accomplishments, steve young never turned jj stokes into a great nfl wr. dan marino couldn't help yatil green or randal hill.
I'm in no way trying to offend you, but those names mean nothing to me. Way before my time. Also i'm not finding any statistics on "drops". I put them in qoutations because i'm not sure what exactly a drop is. If a player is triple covered and the ball skims off his finger tip? Is that a drop?
*shrug* no offense taken. they were all "high profile" wide receivers taken by teams with hall of fame quarterbacks who busted shortly thereafter. green may have been injured, i can't remember exactly, so he may be the only one you can X off there.
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Old 11-08-2006, 08:25 PM    (permalink
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Matt Hasselbeck, '04 season, had "talented receivers," they also averaged about 5-6 dropped passes per game. Dropped passes, while wide open are concentration errors, it has nothing to do with physical talent, nor with the ability of the Quarterback. When you drop a pass that hits you in both of your hands, with no contact from a defensive player, that is the receivers problem.

49ers fans wanted Jerry Rice cut because of all of his drops, but his coaches had faith in him and he worked so much he eventually rid himself of the problem. That's what defined his career. Young receivers drop passes, some correct mistakes, some never learn.


Ricky Bobby; was that Joe Montana's fault as a QB for Rice's dropped passes?
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Old 11-08-2006, 08:56 PM    (permalink
ricky bobby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver
Matt Hasselbeck, '04 season, had "talented receivers," they also averaged about 5-6 dropped passes per game. Dropped passes, while wide open are concentration errors, it has nothing to do with physical talent, nor with the ability of the Quarterback. When you drop a pass that hits you in both of your hands, with no contact from a defensive player, that is the receivers problem.

49ers fans wanted Jerry Rice cut because of all of his drops, but his coaches had faith in him and he worked so much he eventually rid himself of the problem. That's what defined his career. Young receivers drop passes, some correct mistakes, some never learn.


Ricky Bobby; was that Joe Montana's fault as a QB for Rice's dropped passes?
I saw the pass that TO dropped on Romo. That was a drop. To be completely honest, i haven't seen that many Falcons games this year. But in the past the fault was not in the recievers it was in Vick taking off out of the pocket way too early. follow my reasoning.

1. Vick has great speed.
2. Defenses respect speed so instead of blitzing Vick they try to at least contain him in the pocket.
3. If a team doesn't blitz you and instead just tries to contain you in the pocket you have all day to throw.

Using logic, you would think that a QB who's legs draw so much attention from the defense would be able to make plays with his arm, But that is not the case with Vick. Therefore you can assume that Vick has a bad arm.

Just imagine if Tom Brady, or Peyton Manning didn't get blitzed. That would amount in 450 passing yards a game.
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Old 11-08-2006, 08:57 PM    (permalink
 
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Did we really need proof?
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Old 11-08-2006, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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Default Re: Proof that ESPN is full of numbskulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricky bobby
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2652676

Summary
QB rankings

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Bress

So far so good right? But wait it gets better

4. Philip Rivers - Umm yeaahhh the 4rth best in the league
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Mike Vick - If you took away his mobility, he'd be nothing.
7. Marc Bulger
8. Jake Plummer - Wasn't there a QB controversy a week ago?
9. Carson Palmer
10. Tony Romo - He's looked good in his two starts, but come on get real

They go on to rank all the 32 starting QBs. Asside from a couple players who deserve to be higher, ex. Eli Manning, Damon Huard, Rex Grossman, it's pretty good.

The sportsnation rankings are much more accurate.
http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sport...tranker?id=599
Inaccurate or not, you are in no position to be questioning other people's intelligence.
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Old 11-08-2006, 09:39 PM    (permalink
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the rankings are fine if they're for how people are playing right now. they're obviously not who is the best QB in their career.
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Old 11-08-2006, 09:41 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricky bobby
I saw the pass that TO dropped on Romo. That was a drop. To be completely honest, i haven't seen that many Falcons games this year. But in the past the fault was not in the recievers it was in Vick taking off out of the pocket way too early. follow my reasoning.

1. Vick has great speed.
2. Defenses respect speed so instead of blitzing Vick they try to at least contain him in the pocket.
3. If a team doesn't blitz you and instead just tries to contain you in the pocket you have all day to throw.

Using logic, you would think that a QB who's legs draw so much attention from the defense would be able to make plays with his arm, But that is not the case with Vick. Therefore you can assume that Vick has a bad arm.

Just imagine if Tom Brady, or Peyton Manning didn't get blitzed. That would amount in 450 passing yards a game.
Just imagine if Vick had the offensive line of Manning or Brady...
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:06 PM    (permalink
Shiver
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Since when does Michael Vick not get blitzed? :roll: This is what happens when people try to formulate an opinion based on statistics and an occasional highlight reel. In-accurate facts are thrown out. You have to watch the games to see what other people are talking about. Three weeks ago, Peter King, who watched the Falcons/Steelers game said the Falcons receivers average about five drops per game. Against the Lions, according the CBS Sportsline blogger covering the game live, nearly half of Vick's incomplete passes were flat out lack of concentration drops.

Now I am not saying discount dropped passes, they happen to every team. It's in the rare circumstances that it becomes contagious, ala the '04 Seattle Seahawks. But, the average team in the NFL has about 2-3 drops per game, the Falcons are double that. Even so; Vick is on pace to put up near 4,000 total yards and 25+ touchdowns.
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:12 PM    (permalink
ricky bobby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstomp
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricky bobby
I saw the pass that TO dropped on Romo. That was a drop. To be completely honest, i haven't seen that many Falcons games this year. But in the past the fault was not in the recievers it was in Vick taking off out of the pocket way too early. follow my reasoning.

1. Vick has great speed.
2. Defenses respect speed so instead of blitzing Vick they try to at least contain him in the pocket.
3. If a team doesn't blitz you and instead just tries to contain you in the pocket you have all day to throw.

Using logic, you would think that a QB who's legs draw so much attention from the defense would be able to make plays with his arm, But that is not the case with Vick. Therefore you can assume that Vick has a bad arm.

Just imagine if Tom Brady, or Peyton Manning didn't get blitzed. That would amount in 450 passing yards a game.
Just imagine if Vick had the offensive line of Manning or Brady...
First its the recievers then its the Offensive line. :roll: You are just avoiding the real problem - Mike Vick.

"Inaccurate or not, you are in no position to be questioning other people's intelligence."

What kind of idiotic comment is that? If somebody writes something inaccurate i have every right to question the author's intelligence. And if you are implying that i'm unintelligent, look at yourself. You're the nincompoop with elisha cuthbert in your sig. This is a football forum buddy.
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ricky bobby
First its the recievers then its the Offensive line. :roll: You are just avoiding the real problem - Mike Vick.

"Inaccurate or not, you are in no position to be questioning other people's intelligence."

What kind of idiotic comment is that? If somebody writes something inaccurate i have every right to question the author's intelligence. And if you are implying that i'm unintelligent, look at yourself. You're the nincompoop with elisha cuthbert in your sig. This is a football forum buddy.
I'm sure Shiver knows who said it, but I remember there was someone who said that if it wasn't Michael Vick behind that line, they would have twice as many sacks... and it's true.

As for your intelligence... yes, I was saying you have none.

As for my sig, I happen to be a heterosexual male... what are you?
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:45 PM    (permalink
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They hired Michael Irvin, thats all the proof I need.
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