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Old 10-01-2007, 01:13 PM    (permalink
Modano
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Please, Marion is a good player, don't make the entire Dallas Cowboys fanbase look stupid by acting like he is a franchise back. He is a backup RB who has excelled in certain situations, and scored a lot of TD......with a LOT of opportunities. Don't kid yourself into thinking that there are a dozen GMs out there just waiting to throw the farm at him. It's a ridiculous notion.
I'm not convinced on that... There's no guarantee that Marion can't be a feature back. Addai wasn't a feature back even at the college level, he shared carries with Rhodes last year and the Colts had no fear in making him their future back, and it's so far so good for them.
Right now Marion is a very special player, he scored 16 TD's last year behind a not so great OL, this year is playing great, I think it's impossibile to say how he could perform as a feature back.

And don't forget that the Patriots picked Moss for a fourth rounder but also spent a second round on Wes Walker.

If Julius Jones leaves after the season we could easily replace him with just another guy, if Marion leaves it will be way harder to replace him.
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Old 10-01-2007, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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with cleveland winning we might not be picking as high as we thought anyway
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Old 10-01-2007, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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THANK YOU!!!

Judast, I was wondering how long this MM session would go on before someone brought a little bit of levity and reality to the conversation.

Marion Barber is what he is. He's a nice player who has shined in a specific role on a team with tons of complimentary players around him. I love him plenty, but I'm not going to be saying that he is anywhere near 1st round level value.

You have to remember what a 1st rounder is worth in this league. Randy Moss, possibly the most prolific receiver in NFL history during his absolute apex, was traded for basically a 1st rounder and a few decent players. Daunte Culpepper, just one season removed from a top 5 all-time statistical season and supposedly in his prime (though there were injury issues as well as a pretty horrible start to the previous year) only netted a 2nd rounder.

If any of you think for one second that Barber would ever, EVER be signed at--not just the bloated expense of the contract it would take to get him--the cost of a 1st round pick (let alone a 1st and 3rd), you are delusional. The season will end and, depending on the circumstances surrounding the team at the time, Dallas will determine whether to tender him at the 1st round level or the 2nd round level. There is no way we will tender him at the highest level (1st and 3rd). That will lead to us getting another year of him at 1.2-2.0mil. Then, at the end of 2008 we will re-evaluate the situation and determine whether to commit to him long-term.

And for all the "cap hell! cap hell!" shouters out there, realize that we are currently TWELVE MILLION under the cap. We will sign Romo this season, and allocate as much of his signing money to this year's cap as possible, thus putting us in a great position down the road, and freeing up tons of room for possible future free-agent additions, extensions of current players and our high(though maybe not so high as we thought) 1st rounder from Cleveland.

Please, Marion is a good player, don't make the entire Dallas Cowboys fanbase look stupid by acting like he is a franchise back. He is a backup RB who has excelled in certain situations, and scored a lot of TD......with a LOT of opportunities. Don't kid yourself into thinking that there are a dozen GMs out there just waiting to throw the farm at him. It's a ridiculous notion.


but at the same time, its almost like your throwing out the notion that he CAN be a feature back, and it baffles me how people can say something wont happen when they person has never been given an opportunity...your right in that he excells in what he does right now, but isnt that what youd expect? to excell when given an opportunity, i dont see how you can just easily say "oh he's not that great, product of our system, and he cant be a full load feature back because i can see it"


we dont know if he can carry 20 times a game or not or be our feature back, and it is up in the air, but you just cannot throw out the notion as if he's tried and failed before
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Old 10-01-2007, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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I think 5 years for $8 million would be a good sign. Then draft a speedy change of pace type of guy this year in the 3rd or 4th round.
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Old 10-01-2007, 02:10 PM    (permalink
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I think 5 years for $8 million would be a good sign. Then draft a speedy change of pace type of guy this year in the 3rd or 4th round.
I think that's wishful thinking. Lamont Jordan was in a similar boat back when he was with the Jets. He was simply a power back in a committee that everyone thought highly of. He signed a new contract with the Raiders back in '05 and I don't think his hype comes near the hype Barber has been getting around the league these days. Well anyways, his contract was on 3/3/2005 when he signed a five-year, $27.5 million contract. The deal includes $11 million guaranteed. 2007: $1 million (+ $3 million roster bonus), 2008: $4.7 million, 2009: $5 million, 2010: Free Agent.
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Old 10-01-2007, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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I think that's wishful thinking. Lamont Jordan was in a similar boat back when he was with the Jets. He was simply a power back in a committee that everyone thought highly of. He signed a new contract with the Raiders back in '05 and I don't think his hype comes near the hype Barber has been getting around the league these days. Well anyways, his contract was on 3/3/2005 when he signed a five-year, $27.5 million contract. The deal includes $11 million guaranteed. 2007: $1 million (+ $3 million roster bonus), 2008: $4.7 million, 2009: $5 million, 2010: Free Agent.
Which basically means that Lamont Jordan is a FA at the end of this season based on those numbers. No way he's going to make 4.7 next year and stay on the team.

Lamont Jordan and Chester Taylor are yet more examples of the Troy Hambrick effect. Guys that are role players that once thrust into the lineup as full time starters via FA they can't hack it / stay healthy. Taylor had a decent season but was nicked alot and the Vikings saw fit to draft Adrian Peterson in the draft. Lamont Jordan has had injury problems since he got to Oakland.

Case in point. Thomas Jones, who was a part time back with Benson coming in for relief in Chicago netted a second rounder AND he's another back that is injured. I just think that Marion might be worth a 2nd rounder but definitely not a first rounder.
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I just wanna warn you guys not to take TNew41 too seriously. He's....let's just say, special. He's fairly harmless, though. He just needs several years of seasoning before he tries to make any more points, is all.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:12 PM    (permalink
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Which basically means that Lamont Jordan is a FA at the end of this season based on those numbers. No way he's going to make 4.7 next year and stay on the team.

Lamont Jordan and Chester Taylor are yet more examples of the Troy Hambrick effect. Guys that are role players that once thrust into the lineup as full time starters via FA they can't hack it / stay healthy. Taylor had a decent season but was nicked alot and the Vikings saw fit to draft Adrian Peterson in the draft. Lamont Jordan has had injury problems since he got to Oakland.

Case in point. Thomas Jones, who was a part time back with Benson coming in for relief in Chicago netted a second rounder AND he's another back that is injured. I just think that Marion might be worth a 2nd rounder but definitely not a first rounder.
You make good points, but as you can tell, NFL teams don't care. They still continue to offer up those contracts to those types of players and they will come knocking on Barber's door too. Barber will cost a pretty penny to keep and I don't want a first round pick in return.

I don't see a RB better than Barber outside of DMAC... and even that's in question. I definitely don't think Stewart is better. Not even close. Stewart reminds me of Jamal Lewis at Tennessee.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:20 PM    (permalink
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I'd take Jamal Lewis out of Tennessee over Barber any day of the week. Jamal rushed for 2,000 yards and prior to going to jail (which also coincided with numberous ankle injuries) was a top 3-5 back in the NFL.

I think Stewart is better than MBIII. In fact if given the opportunity to give MBIII away in a 1v1 exchange for Stewart, DMAC, Slaton, Allen Patrick or Mike Hart, I'd take it.
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I just wanna warn you guys not to take TNew41 too seriously. He's....let's just say, special. He's fairly harmless, though. He just needs several years of seasoning before he tries to make any more points, is all.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:37 PM    (permalink
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As I have said before I believe Stewart is everything Barber is only faster. So if money wasn't an issue I would take him over Barber any day.

I would keep Barber over any 1st round RB as long as Barber isn't asking for feature back money though.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:46 PM    (permalink
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As I have said before I believe Stewart is everything Barber is only faster. So if money wasn't an issue I would take him over Barber any day.

I would keep Barber over any 1st round RB as long as Barber isn't asking for feature back money though.
Stewart is not fast when I watch him.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:46 PM    (permalink
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As I have said before I believe Stewart is everything Barber is only faster. So if money wasn't an issue I would take him over Barber any day.

I would keep Barber over any 1st round RB as long as Barber isn't asking for feature back money though.

I like Barber and I think he's a good player for the Cowboys. I agree with what you are saying. If the price is right I'd keep him over any other 1st round RB and use him in a tandem with another RB. In fact, I'd rather sign him to a very middle of the road contract and JJ to a middle of the road contract and stick with what we have instead of getting a DMAC. So, the economics of the situations dictate alot.

But, from an 'all things being equal' standpoint, I think Stewart, Slaton, DMAC will all be better NFL players (but cost more as well).
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I just wanna warn you guys not to take TNew41 too seriously. He's....let's just say, special. He's fairly harmless, though. He just needs several years of seasoning before he tries to make any more points, is all.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:47 PM    (permalink
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I'd take Jamal Lewis out of Tennessee over Barber any day of the week. Jamal rushed for 2,000 yards and prior to going to jail (which also coincided with numberous ankle injuries) was a top 3-5 back in the NFL.

I think Stewart is better than MBIII. In fact if given the opportunity to give MBIII away in a 1v1 exchange for Stewart, DMAC, Slaton, Allen Patrick or Mike Hart, I'd take it.
Where does Barber fall short of those guys?
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:50 PM    (permalink
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I'd take Jamal Lewis out of Tennessee over Barber any day of the week. Jamal rushed for 2,000 yards and prior to going to jail (which also coincided with numberous ankle injuries) was a top 3-5 back in the NFL.

I think Stewart is better than MBIII. In fact if given the opportunity to give MBIII away in a 1v1 exchange for Stewart, DMAC, Slaton, Allen Patrick or Mike Hart, I'd take it.
I'm with you.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:51 PM    (permalink
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Where does Barber fall short of those guys?
The ability to play a whole game/be a starting back. You've said it yourself.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:58 PM    (permalink
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The ability to play a whole game/be a starting back. You've said it yourself.
I never said he couldn't. I said he shouldn't. For financial reasons... I want to keep his stock down. I don't understand the infatuation with having a full time back. The NFL is moving away from that for good reason.

Skill wise, size wise... there is no reason why Barber couldn't handle a full load. That's what I'm wait to hear from those who would prefer Stewart, Slaton, Hart, Patrick... I can understand DMAC.. but those others??? Why?
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:00 PM    (permalink
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Where does Barber fall short of those guys?
It's largely personal preference. DMAC is a special player and I don't think anyone would argue that he's a superior runner than Barber.

Stewart is faster than Barber and to me, a better runner. Slaton is a very underrated player on this message board. He's extremely fast and I think he's a very natural runner. Allen Patrick reminds me very much of Terry Allen. Not sure what it is about him, but he's a guy that I think will surprise alot of people in the NFL.

You know me, I try to use statistics to back up my opinions. In the case of some college players it's hard to do because college statistics can be very misleading (strength of opponent, disparities in talent levels of programs from year to year, etc).

However, MBIII does not impress me as a short yardage back. I think he's a good, not great runner. He bounces way to many of his short yardage runs to the outside. He does run like he's angry, and once he's to the line of scrimmage or a yard beyond, he is a very good runner against the second level guys. Basically I think he's too patient on the short runs but his patience pays off when he gets a hole and pick his way through. He's got plenty of power, just doesn't use it right in short yardage. He was 10 of 26 on 3rd or 4th and yards to go or less last year. That's terrible. I think his touchdown totals are misleading.

Overall, I would rather have the following backs carrying the football instead of him if I could 'madden' it up for a bit:

LT
LJ
Addai
Alexander
Gore
Westbrook
Maroney
Travis Henry
Ronnie Brown
Willie Parker
Rudi Johnson
Steven Jackson
Adrian Peterson
Clinton Portis


So that puts him at top 15-20 range (I didn't put Bush or Lynch on the list just yet). That to me is just above the 'Just-a-guy' range. It's largely personal preference.
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I just wanna warn you guys not to take TNew41 too seriously. He's....let's just say, special. He's fairly harmless, though. He just needs several years of seasoning before he tries to make any more points, is all.
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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It's largely personal preference. DMAC is a special player and I don't think anyone would argue that he's a superior runner than Barber.

Stewart is faster than Barber and to me, a better runner. Slaton is a very underrated player on this message board. He's extremely fast and I think he's a very natural runner. Allen Patrick reminds me very much of Terry Allen. Not sure what it is about him, but he's a guy that I think will surprise alot of people in the NFL.

You know me, I try to use statistics to back up my opinions. In the case of some college players it's hard to do because college statistics can be very misleading (strength of opponent, disparities in talent levels of programs from year to year, etc).

However, MBIII does not impress me as a short yardage back. I think he's a good, not great runner. He bounces way to many of his short yardage runs to the outside. He does run like he's angry, and once he's to the line of scrimmage or a yard beyond, he is a very good runner against the second level guys. Basically I think he's too patient on the short runs but his patience pays off when he gets a hole and pick his way through. He's got plenty of power, just doesn't use it right in short yardage. He was 10 of 26 on 3rd or 4th and yards to go or less last year. That's terrible. I think his touchdown totals are misleading.

Overall, I would rather have the following backs carrying the football instead of him if I could 'madden' it up for a bit:

LT
LJ
Addai
Alexander
Gore
Westbrook
Maroney
Travis Henry
Ronnie Brown
Willie Parker
Rudi Johnson
Steven Jackson
Adrian Peterson
Clinton Portis


So that puts him at top 15-20 range (I didn't put Bush or Lynch on the list just yet). That to me is just above the 'Just-a-guy' range. It's largely personal preference.
That's 3rd and 4th down conversion rate is interesting. I didn't realize that. It seems this message board is split on Barber. I remember saying we needed a power back before the '06 draft, but everyone it seemed was telling me that Barber was that guy. Since then, I've been sold that yeah, he appears to be that guy. Now you're telling me he's not a good power back and those numbers support the argument.

I still would like the team to stick with the RBBC approach with Barber apart of it. Seems like I'm in the minority. Weird. So here's a question. If you could add a RB to the Barber committee, would it be a power back or a speedy back?

Not a lot is wrong with our running game imo, right now. I think it's running very smoothly as a matter of fact.

Out of those guys you listed, I understand it's a personal preference, but there's only a handful of guys up there that are faster than Barber and another handful of guys that are more powerful than Barber.

I honestly believe that given a full load, Barber would put up at least equally good numbers as those guys. Fact of the matter is, he's matching the production or exceeding them with hjs limited touches. So the last thing that I'm gonna buy is that he's "just another guy". There's simply no way.
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:29 PM    (permalink
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Well, bear in mind that 'just another guy' as it pertains to starting RB in the NFL is pretty good. RB's are plentiful in the NFL. To the point of being the easiest position to fill on an NFL roster with a competent starter. So JAG as it pertains to MBIII isn't a statement that I make as a slight to him.

JAG as it pertains to CB on the other hand is a bad thing if they are starting.

If we kept MBIII and added another RB I would want someone as close to a Brian Westbrook as we could get. I think he's a shifty pass receiving / sprint draw type player that would work well with MBIII. I do think MBIII is a powerful running back, he's just not a great short yardage back. They aren't necessarily the same thing. Marcus Allen was a great short yardage back, but wasn't ever considered a power back. He was just good at it.
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Old 10-01-2007, 11:53 PM    (permalink
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THANK YOU!!!

Judast, I was wondering how long this MM session would go on before someone brought a little bit of levity and reality to the conversation.

Marion Barber is what he is. He's a nice player who has shined in a specific role on a team with tons of complimentary players around him. I love him plenty, but I'm not going to be saying that he is anywhere near 1st round level value.
How many football teams do you manage?

I dont like to ask a stupid question like that but it seems relevant here. YOU dont feel hes 1st round level. But there are 32 teams in the League all managed by SOMEONE ELSE. Some of which need a starting RB and would see Marion's statistics over the last three years and absolute **** themselves.

You are getting a RB with a fair bit of tread on the tires(so you know he CAN PLAY)... Hardly been injured(knock wood as a Dallas fan) and has punched in so many TD's the only people who even come relatively close are LT, Priest, Marshall Faulk and Shaun Alexander(pretty illustrious company)... Said teams WILL rationalise the tradeoff because they are getting more of a guaranteed player then the ones they are looking to draft at the #1 & #3 round picks. You seen how close Turner came and that was off a pretty average season compared to his year before.

So yeah. YOU dont think hes worth it. I personally dont think hes worth it. But for every reasonable mind like you or I... There is an Al Davis or Randy Lerner...

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You have to remember what a 1st rounder is worth in this league. Randy Moss, possibly the most prolific receiver in NFL history during his absolute apex, was traded for basically a 1st rounder and a few decent players. Daunte Culpepper, just one season removed from a top 5 all-time statistical season and supposedly in his prime (though there were injury issues as well as a pretty horrible start to the previous year) only netted a 2nd rounder.
Funny you should mention Moss. He went for a 4th rounder to the Patriots(yet again a deal instigated by Al Davis) after two woefully flat years in Oakland... You dont think someones gonna look at the production by Marion Barber over the last two years and rationalise??? You dont even think its possible?

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If any of you think for one second that Barber would ever, EVER be signed at--not just the bloated expense of the contract it would take to get him--the cost of a 1st round pick (let alone a 1st and 3rd), you are delusional. The season will end and, depending on the circumstances surrounding the team at the time, Dallas will determine whether to tender him at the 1st round level or the 2nd round level. There is no way we will tender him at the highest level (1st and 3rd). That will lead to us getting another year of him at 1.2-2.0mil. Then, at the end of 2008 we will re-evaluate the situation and determine whether to commit to him long-term.
I guarantee you right here and right now. Marion Barber WILL get the 1st level tender. Regardless of what happens. It puts us in the best position to keep him at a cheaper cost.

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And for all the "cap hell! cap hell!" shouters out there, realize that we are currently TWELVE MILLION under the cap. We will sign Romo this season, and allocate as much of his signing money to this year's cap as possible, thus putting us in a great position down the road, and freeing up tons of room for possible future free-agent additions, extensions of current players and our high(though maybe not so high as we thought) 1st rounder from Cleveland.
Did you read my first post or just buff over it...?

Romo is getting resigned. Even still if the majority of the money is going to be put into this years cap... His contract is still going to be 4 million more then his current one next year(at the least based on current production)... So our cap is down to 8 Add the fact that we have an extra 1st round pick next year(not even including the Marion Barber situation) Assuming both picks fall roughly around where they did when we drafted Ware and Spears... Thats still an extra 1st rounder we have to accomodate(with the new CBA which allows ROOKIE's to demand compareable and in some cases LARGER contracts then the best players currently playing in those positions...) Not to mention resiging Hamlin... and possibly J.Jones(dependant on his rushing this year)...

But the kicker is if someone did offer for Marion. We are left with the choice of matching there offer(which will be a substantial hit on the Salary Cap) OR choosing to go into the First Round of this years draft with 3 First round picks... Which is also going to cost us a mint. I dont think we get done this year with the salary cap and hell... We might not even come close to breaking it in future seasons. Im just looking for some reassurance...

Quote:
Please, Marion is a good player, don't make the entire Dallas Cowboys fanbase look stupid by acting like he is a franchise back. He is a backup RB who has excelled in certain situations, and scored a lot of TD......with a LOT of opportunities. Don't kid yourself into thinking that there are a dozen GMs out there just waiting to throw the farm at him. It's a ridiculous notion.
Do we need to look at some of the ridiculous trades that have been made over the years by those Super logical GM's out there??? If Marion has AS productive a year this year as last... He will be looked at as a breakout superstar. A 1st and 3rd Round pick for someone who just KNOWS there way to the goalline is worth there weight in gold for some teams.
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Old 10-02-2007, 10:02 AM    (permalink
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Isnt D Mac going to be ALOT more expensive then any other option? unless we want DMac to start and Tyson back him up which is pretty crazy, were putting our stock into a rookie and he he goes down then we have Tyson as the lone back...


seems like the cost is cheaper to keep Barber, let JJ walk, and grab a leon washington type back in the 3rd, he was nothing special coming out and lasted pretty long, but who here could say they wouldnt be pretty satisfied with Barber and leon washington in the backfield, its cheap, we get to sign some other areas of need, and have more room under the cap to make some things happen...


but we WILL NOT, let both of our backs walk next year, thats just not going to happen, we have 2 solid backs, how often do you see teams let both go and go into the offseason just like when emmitt smith left, let alone if we draft a back that bust we are set back in terms of what this offense can do...


DMac will probably be a good player but you guys act like he's the only special player in this draft class, Doucet could be incredible, Phillips, Long, any of those guys could be pro bowlers many years, im not all for taking a rb because as many other areas that we need a player, we can get someone just as talented where we actually need someone....


now Barber and DMac together would be nice, but super expensive, and i really dont think we have the cap for that type of backfield because Mcfaddens contract would be monsterous
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