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Old 11-07-2007, 04:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TacticaLion View Post
Looking at only a few stats and not others (or actual situations) is ignorant.

If it makes you feel better thinking that the Bears' defense has outplayed the Lions' defense from one skewed stat, so be it. Enjoy it. Let it compensate for the record... I don't care.
That's exactly what YOU are doing, not us. I gave you 4 good stats in which the Lions suck in, turnovers don't make up for all that. All of those except maybe one are bettter indicators on how good a defense is than turnovers.
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Old 11-07-2007, 05:43 PM    (permalink
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That's exactly what YOU are doing, not us. I gave you 4 good stats in which the Lions suck in, turnovers don't make up for all that. All of those except maybe one are better indicators on how good a defense is than turnovers.
There is a difference...

The Lions' defense has at least 1 takeaway each game this season... and only 1 game with 1. Takeaways (in order): 3, 5, 2, 3, 1, 2, 4, 4. That isn't just a bunch of takeaways in a few easy games... that's steady performance throughout the entire season.

When you mention "Points Against" or "Yards Against", you have to realize that the Lions had one game (Eagles) that was incredibly swayed and manipulated those stats (as shown before). If you remove the 5 takeaway performance and average the Lions' takeaways per game, they're still at 2.7 (from 3). That isn't as big of a drop off as the "Points Against" stat is without the Eagles game (23.1 with, 18.4 without).

Many stats are misleading... but the Lions' takeaways are not. The defense has consistently taken the ball away and are the reason we're 6-2.
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Old 11-07-2007, 09:11 PM    (permalink
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There is a difference...

The Lions' defense has at least 1 takeaway each game this season... and only 1 game with 1. Takeaways (in order): 3, 5, 2, 3, 1, 2, 4, 4. That isn't just a bunch of takeaways in a few easy games... that's steady performance throughout the entire season.

When you mention "Points Against" or "Yards Against", you have to realize that the Lions had one game (Eagles) that was incredibly swayed and manipulated those stats (as shown before). If you remove the 5 takeaway performance and average the Lions' takeaways per game, they're still at 2.7 (from 3). That isn't as big of a drop off as the "Points Against" stat is without the Eagles game (23.1 with, 18.4 without).

Many stats are misleading... but the Lions' takeaways are not. The defense has consistently taken the ball away and are the reason we're 6-2.
Every Single Game minipulates the stats you can't sit there and act like that game doesn't matter because you got blown out. They layed 56 points on you and they do count.

A stat that is not misleading is 21 touchdowns allowed by your defense. Hence why what i see is a defense that lives and dies with takeaways. Undoubtingly without those take aways the number of touchdowns allowed would be much much higher.

Leading the league in take aways is a good accomplishment and no one is trying to diminish that accomplishment however that one accomplishment isn't the only part of your defense. you have to take it in perspective with everything else and the fact is those takeaways are pretty much the only thing that defense has going for it.

Everyone has admitted that this Defense is better than any of us expected. But it's still not better than any other in the division. And i probably wouldn't put it in the top half of all the NFL Defenses either. And to be truly honest it hasn't even faced it's toughest oppoents offensively yet so im still skeptical.

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Old 11-07-2007, 09:33 PM    (permalink
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A stat that is not misleading is 21 touchdowns allowed by your defense. Hence why what i see is a defense that lives and dies with takeaways. Undoubtingly without those take aways the number of touchdowns allowed would be much much higher.
Right. 8 of those 21 touchdowns were scored in that Eagles game. Lets do the math:

21 touchdowns against / 8 games: 2.6 touchdowns against (average)

13 touchdowns against / 7 games: 1.85 touchdowns against (average)

Same average (over 8 games): 15 (14.8)... better than the Bears and tied with the Packers.

This highlights my point (and thank you for bringing it up): one game/situation can make a stat misleading. The Lions, over 7 games, allow an average of 1.85 touchdowns against... but allowed 8 TDs against the Eagles alone. Do the Lions, on average, allow 8 TDs?! No. It's the exception... a rarity... and, when factored into their TDs against, makes the stat unrealistic.

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Every Single Game minipulates the stats you can't sit there and act like that game doesn't matter because you got blown out. They layed 56 points on you and they do count.
Don't get me wrong: I'm not denying the fact that we allowed 56 points against the Eagles. I'm simply saying that that game was the exception and is not the norm for the Lions' defense. 8 TDs against in one game... with 13 TDs against over the rest of the seven.

Is Osi's 6 sack game the "norm"... his "average"? No. Neither is 56 points (8 TDs) against.
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Old 11-07-2007, 09:53 PM    (permalink
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Right. 8 of those 21 touchdowns were scored in that Eagles game. Lets do the math:

21 touchdowns against / 8 games: 2.6 touchdowns against (average)

13 touchdowns against / 7 games: 1.85 touchdowns against (average)

Same average (over 8 games): 15 (14.8)... better than the Bears and tied with the Packers.

This highlights my point (and thank you for bringing it up): one game/situation can make a stat misleading. The Lions, over 7 games, allow an average of 1.85 touchdowns against... but allowed 8 TDs against the Eagles alone. Do the Lions, on average, allow 8 TDs?! No. It's the exception... a rarity... and, when factored into their TDs against, makes the stat unrealistic.



Don't get me wrong: I'm not denying the fact that we allowed 56 points against the Eagles. I'm simply saying that that game was the exception and is not the norm for the Lions' defense. 8 TDs against in one game... with 13 TDs against over the rest of the seven.

Is Osi's 6 sack game the "norm"... his "average"? No. Neither is 56 points (8 TDs) against.
No a "misleading stat" would say if out of those 56 points 28 of them were from Return Touchdowns(punt/kickoff/int/fum). All 56 is on your defense and its not like you had a bunch of key starters injured(bears) so i see no reason that game isn't the "norm".

The fact is you haven't really played much Productive offense's outside of maybe Denver(yards wise) which they played with backup Qb and Unhealthy RB most of the game. Come back when you face Dallas, Green bay(2), New York Giants, and San Diego(underachieving at the moment but we all know what they are capable of) why don't we see how you perform against them first. To be honest im not sold you will even be able to stop AD the second time around.

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Old 11-07-2007, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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If it makes you feel better thinking that the Bears' defense has outplayed the Lions' defense from one skewed stat, so be it. Enjoy it. Let it compensate for the record... I don't care.

But... know that, for 7 of the 8 games this season, the Lions' defense averaged fewer points against than the Bears.
Dude...I agree with you.

Paris Lenon > Brian Urlacher

It's settled.


I mean...honestly I don't even know why you're arguing. This thread is hilarious. You were so right and we were all so wrong. You shouldn't even bother talking to us...just read your stats aloud and laugh. It's quite impressive actually.
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Old 11-07-2007, 10:09 PM    (permalink
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No a "misleading stat" would say if out of those 56 points 28 off them were from Return Touchdowns. All 56 is on your defense and its not like you had a bunch of key starters injured(bears) so i see no reason that game isn't the "norm".
You don't see that it isn't the norm? I even broke it down for you:

1 game: 8 TDs against (8 TD average)
7 games: 13 TDs against (1.85 TD average)

How can't you see it? If we averaged 1.85 TDs against over 7 games, but allowed 8 in one game, how can you suggest that that's our "norm"?

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The fact is you haven't really played much Productive offense's outside of Denver and they played with backup Qb and Unhealthy RB most of the game. Come back when you face Dallas, Green bay(2), New York Giants, and San Diego(underachieving at the moment but we all know what they are capable of) why don't we see how you perform against them first. To be honest im not sold you will even be able to stop AD the second time around.
Haha... I know you aren't, and I wouldn't expect you to be (looking at your sig space). No one thought our "horrible" defense could stop him the first time.

I never said our defense would be stellar (or even great) against the better offensive teams... that wasn't this conversation and isn't what I'm talking about. I'm responding to the claims that use the current "Points Allowed" and "TDs Against" stats as proof that our defense is the worst in the NFC North. The stats are misleading... (and, oh yeah... we have the most takeaways).
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Old 11-08-2007, 02:14 AM    (permalink
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You don't see that it isn't the norm? I even broke it down for you:

1 game: 8 TDs against (8 TD average)
7 games: 13 TDs against (1.85 TD average)

How can't you see it? If we averaged 1.85 TDs against over 7 games, but allowed 8 in one game, how can you suggest that that's our "norm"?

Haha... I know you aren't, and I wouldn't expect you to be (looking at your sig space). No one thought our "horrible" defense could stop him the first time.

I never said our defense would be stellar (or even great) against the better offensive teams... that wasn't this conversation and isn't what I'm talking about. I'm responding to the claims that use the current "Points Allowed" and "TDs Against" stats as proof that our defense is the worst in the NFC North. The stats are misleading... (and, oh yeah... we have the most takeaways).
Just exactly what Defense in the NFC North would you say the lions are better than??
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Old 11-08-2007, 03:21 AM    (permalink
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As long as the detroit lions play this season is the topic, heres something I just came across.
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=683877

"41-23 Combined record of Detroit's final eight opponents. The combined record of the six teams they have beaten is 19-30."

Looks like were going to see how detroit does against the better teams in the league.
Im not going to try to make a prediction concidering the season there having so far. Although I do think they will beat arizona this week.

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Old 11-08-2007, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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Just exactly what Defense in the NFC North would you say the lions are better than??
They've played (much) better than the Bears defense so far... and Minnesota/Green Bay have top defenses. Looking back on what was said about the Lions' defense in this thread, you should be able to see the ********.
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As long as the detroit lions play this season is the topic, heres something I just came across.
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=683877

"41-23 Combined record of Detroit's final eight opponents. The combined record of the six teams they have beaten is 19-30."

Looks like were going to see how detroit does against the better teams in the league.
Im not going to try to make a prediction concidering the season there having so far. Although I do think they will beat arizona this week.
If the Lions were the same team as last year, that number would be much closer to .500 (we had 1 win at this point... opponents would be 24-25). So far, we've played the defending NFC Champs (twice), the Broncos (playoff team), the Eagles (playoff team in 2006), the Redskins (lost 20 consecutive in Washington, 5-3 in 2007), the Vikings (entered the game with a losing streak), the Raiders (fairly weak) and the Bucs (4-2 when we played them). It's easy to look at the overall wins and losses... but, considering the opponents we've played, standing at 6-2 is impressive.

Yes, the road ahead is much harder. If we can beat the Cards, I expect us to finish 9-7. If we lose this Sunday, I expect 8-8. One upset can leave us 10-6. Either way, we've exceeded expectations.
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Old 11-12-2007, 10:29 AM    (permalink
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They've played (much) better than the Bears defense so far.
Much better huh? Let's compare.

The Bears are better in:

1)Yards per game
2)Points per game
3)Pass Defense
4)Sacks
5)3rd down conversion %
6)Red zone defense

The Lions are better in:

1)Run defense
2)Turnovers



Yeah...much better. Way to show us all again. This thread is HILARIOUS!!!
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Old 11-12-2007, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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Much better huh? Let's compare.

The Bears are better in:

1)Yards per game
2)Points per game
3)Pass Defense
4)Sacks
5)3rd down conversion %
6)Red zone defense

The Lions are better in:

1)Run defense
2)Turnovers



Yeah...much better. Way to show us all again. This thread is HILARIOUS!!!
Ha... you're a joke.

3rd down conversion %!? REALLY?! Man... you and the Falcons... two elite defenses... just dominant with that 3rd down conversion %. You're right... you've gotta think of the Bears as an elite defense with that 3rd down conversion %. Hell... at least top 4, right?

Great argument. List as many defensive stats under a "The Bears are better in:" list and prove your point. Bears: 6, Lions: 2. You win.

Can I try? Here... I'll go ahead and adjust the "The Lions are better in:" list... just to see how horrible our defense really is (compared to the elite Bears defense, of course).

The Lions are better in:
1)Total Tackles
2)Solo Tackles
3)Assisted Tackles
4)Passes Defended
5)Interceptions
6)Interception TDs
7)Interception Yards
8)Longest Interception Returns
9)Forced Fumbles
10)Recovered Fumbles
11)Fumble TDs
12)Yards Allowed Per Play
13)4th Down Conversion %
14)Interception TDs Allowed
15)Fewer FGs Made Against
16)Safeties
17)Yards Per Catch Allowed
18)20+ Yard Catches
19)Rushing Yards Allowed
20)Rushing Yards Average
21)Rushing Yards Allowed Per Game
22)Rushing TDs Allowed
23)Longest Rush Allowed
24)20+ Yard Rushes Allowed
25)40+ Yard Rushes Allowed
25.5)QB Rating Against


There... I gave you 25.5 stats that the Lions are statistically better than the Bears in... 25.5! That makes the count - Bears: 6, Lions: 25.5. That's how you win an argument like this, right?

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Old 11-12-2007, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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Haha...I hope you realize most of those statistics are ********. At least I'm hoping that's the point here.

3rd down conversion % isn't the be all and end all, but it is pretty important considering that most drives are either sustained or ended by what an offense is able to do on 3rd down.

Where in that did I say the Bears were an elite defense? You can call names and make **** up, but the fact of the matter is that you have yet to get one person to agree with you.

And I know what you'll say "I don't care what anyone else thinks blah blah blah.."

But clearly you do.

You were hoping that by bringing up some random quotes and talking aimless trash that at least one person would say, "wow..you were so right...we were all so wrong", hence why I've been mocking you for the last 2-3 pages while everyone continued to disagree with you and point out (rightfully so) that while the Lions defense has improved slightly above expectations, they are still very bad, and still the worst in the division.

So yes...this thread is hilarious. It's hilarious how laughably smug you've been about this when you've got nothing but one actual stat to even remotely back up your argument. The Lions have given up more yards, and more points, than any other team in the division. You can try to angle that or buttfuck it all you want, but that's the truth, and that's why everyone is calling you out once again for the incredibly biased homer that you are.

Anyway...I'm done with this. You are so frustratingly biased it's impossible to even conduct an argument. Believe that the Lions have a good defense all you like. Honestly I wouldn't be suprised if they finish 2-5 and miss the playoffs again.
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Old 11-12-2007, 01:59 PM    (permalink
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The mocking has gone down quite a bit, though... especially after week 8. Interesting...

The Bears' defense is average... at best. They've allowed 340 yards per game (22nd in the NFL) and 20.8 points per game (17th in the NFL), but only have 6 INTs (T-28th in the NFL).

In other words: the Bears don't do anything well... whereas the Lions can at least create turnovers (once again, 1st in the NFL) on a regular basis. Which defense would you rather have... one that excells at nothing, or another that can at least do something?

Good point. Call it what you will, but this isn't "homerism"... these are facts. Don't lose hope, though... there's always next year.
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Old 11-12-2007, 02:51 PM    (permalink
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You don't see that it isn't the norm? I even broke it down for you:

1 game: 8 TDs against (8 TD average)
7 games: 13 TDs against (1.85 TD average)

How can't you see it? If we averaged 1.85 TDs against over 7 games, but allowed 8 in one game, how can you suggest that that's our "norm"?


Haha... I know you aren't, and I wouldn't expect you to be (looking at your sig space). No one thought our "horrible" defense could stop him the first time.

I never said our defense would be stellar (or even great) against the better offensive teams... that wasn't this conversation and isn't what I'm talking about. I'm responding to the claims that use the current "Points Allowed" and "TDs Against" stats as proof that our defense is the worst in the NFC North. The stats are misleading... (and, oh yeah... we have the most takeaways).
Obviously the Packers are just as good as the Patriots, after all that loss to the bears should just be thrown out. The Packers are undefeated if you throw that game out!!!
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Old 11-12-2007, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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The mocking has gone down quite a bit, though... especially after week 8. Interesting...

The Bears' defense is average... at best. They've allowed 340 yards per game (22nd in the NFL) and 20.8 points per game (17th in the NFL), but only have 6 INTs (T-28th in the NFL).

In other words: the Bears don't do anything well... whereas the Lions can at least create turnovers (once again, 1st in the NFL) on a regular basis. Which defense would you rather have... one that excells at nothing, or another that can at least do something?

Good point. Call it what you will, but this isn't "homerism"... these are facts. Don't lose hope, though... there's always next year.
The Lions are also quite adept at giving up points. They have given up the most in the division. Go ahead and take as many turnovers as you want, I would rather have 0 turnover, yet give up 14 points a game, then average 4 turnovers a game and give up 21.
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Old 11-12-2007, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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Much better huh? Let's compare.

The Bears are better in:

1)Yards per game
2)Points per game
3)Pass Defense
4)Sacks
5)3rd down conversion %
6)Red zone defense

The Lions are better in:

1)Run defense
2)Turnovers



Yeah...much better. Way to show us all again. This thread is HILARIOUS!!!
I think you're forgetting that turnovers are the only thing that matters.
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Old 11-12-2007, 04:16 PM    (permalink
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Isnt like half the bears secondary injured? Doesnt that makeup for all the bad defense?
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Old 11-12-2007, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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Yes and no. Mike Brown and Vasher have been hurt almost the entire season, along with Kevin Payne and Brandon McGowan, effectively nullifying out safety depth and the opportunity to bench Archuleta who has been predictably suspect in coverage.

The bigger problems has come from the loss of Dvoracek at NT and Urlacher playing with an apparent arthritic back however. Our pass defense hasn't been great but our run defense is arguably even worse. It's now widely assumed that Briggs will resign with the Bears, in large part due to his play this season and the fact that he has clearly eclipsed Urlacher as the best linebacker on our team.
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:10 PM    (permalink
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The mocking has gone down quite a bit, though... especially after week 8. Interesting...

The Bears' defense is average... at best. They've allowed 340 yards per game (22nd in the NFL) and 20.8 points per game (17th in the NFL), but only have 6 INTs (T-28th in the NFL).

In other words: the Bears don't do anything well... whereas the Lions can at least create turnovers (once again, 1st in the NFL) on a regular basis. Which defense would you rather have... one that excells at nothing, or another that can at least do something?

Good point. Call it what you will, but this isn't "homerism"... these are facts. Don't lose hope, though... there's always next year.
TacticaLion's advice to the Bears:

1. Stop playing football in the first half. Give up as many yards/points as you can so the game is decidedly over and the score is in the neighborhood of 56-0.
2. Spend the next 2 quarters going for strips and interceptions, the game is over the other team won't care anymore.
3. Now that you are leading the league in turnovers, by virtue you have the #1 defense in the league.
4. ..........
5. Championship
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:21 PM    (permalink
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The Lions are also quite adept at giving up points. They have given up the most in the division. Go ahead and take as many turnovers as you want, I would rather have 0 turnover, yet give up 14 points a game, then average 4 turnovers a game and give up 21.
Right. Once again, the PPG argument. Gotchya.

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1. Stop playing football in the first half. Give up as many yards/points as you can so the game is decidedly over and the score is in the neighborhood of 56-0.
2. Spend the next 2 quarters going for strips and interceptions, the game is over the other team won't care anymore.
That would make sense... if the takeaways came only in those games where the Lions' were blown out.

It's a shame that they've done it in every game (9), and not just the losses (3).

Look at the Lions... you know what I see? A struggling, underachieving offense... led by an indecisive, aged QB behind a patchwork OLine with a hesitant but powerful RB and wasted talent at WR. Now, look at the Lions' record: 6-3... and in the mix for a playoff berth.

You know why they have even 1 win, let alone 6? The defense. Although the defense gets thrown under the bus time and time again, they've made huge plays when the team has needed it. This young, weak defense lacking "talent" spends more than half of every game on the field... but makes plays. Sacks... FFs... INTs... TDs... the defense has done it all this year.

If you look past stats and actually look at games and performances, the Lions' defense is performing like a top 10 defense. Anyone who's watched a game can see it. The only defense in the division I'd rather have is the Packers... but, with a few more solid players, I'm not so sure.

So... that's why I find this thread "funny". As much **** has been talked about the Lions' defense in this thread, they're doing more than other defenses in the NFL (and in this division) with much less talent than those defenses.
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, Roy and Furrey, what wastes
I dont even know what you mean by that statement
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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The Lions are also quite adept at giving up points. They have given up the most in the division. Go ahead and take as many turnovers as you want, I would rather have 0 turnover, yet give up 14 points a game, then average 4 turnovers a game and give up 21.
WHY?

If you force four turnovers a game, it would be almost impossible to not score 14 points or more as a result of turnovers. Your offense would only have to be completely inept to not be able to score 10 points on its own accord.

Not saying the Lions method of playing defense is great, but it is effective.
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:25 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, Roy and Furrey, what wastes
I dont even know what you mean by that statement
Riiiight. Roy, Furrey and CJ have stats (this season) that reflect their talent.

Good one.
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:26 PM    (permalink
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If you look past stats and actually look at games and performances, the Lions' defense is performing like a top 10 defense.
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