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Old 02-08-2008, 04:15 PM    (permalink
umphrey
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I'd give players differing amounts of time depending on position to label him a bust

Ex.

QB: 3 full years
RB: 1.5 years
WR: 2-3 years
OL: should just steadily improve for 3-5 years
LB: 1-2 years
CB: 3 years

Things like injuries can affect this, but if a guy is hurt 2 out of 3 years I'd consider him a bust until he proves otherwise.
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Old 02-08-2008, 05:27 PM    (permalink
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http://www.nfl.com/teams/detroitlion...chart?team=DET

just finished the thread.
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Old 02-09-2008, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
Umm...Tony Mandarich? Arguably the biggest bust ever?
I'll take the cumulative busts the Bears have rolled out over the past 17 seasons... How many losing seasons did the Packers have after Mandarich? How many losing seasons have the Bears had since that draft?
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Old 02-09-2008, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by umphrey View Post
I'd give players differing amounts of time depending on position to label him a bust

Ex.

QB: 3 full years
RB: 1.5 years
WR: 2-3 years
OL: should just steadily improve for 3-5 years
LB: 1-2 years
CB: 3 years

Things like injuries can affect this, but if a guy is hurt 2 out of 3 years I'd consider him a bust until he proves otherwise.
I pretty much agree with that list although i would make a couple of adjustments. I'd go year 4 for QB's, and for WR i would say 3-4 years since most don't of them don't blossom till their 3rd or 4th year.
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Old 02-17-2008, 06:41 PM    (permalink
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for the lions:

qb: Joey Harrington
wr- Charles Rogers, Mike Williams
dline- Sean Cody
LB- Boss Bailey
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Old 02-23-2008, 06:19 PM    (permalink
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QB Tavaris Jackson 2nd rounder?
ummm, okay, you're an idiot right off the bat, 2 years into his career hes started 16 games and he has gotten noticeably better towards the end of last year, not even close to a bust....yet

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HB Ciatrick Fason this guy hasnt even carried the ball 50 times in his entire career
is he even on a team right now? haha

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Wr Troy williamson The guy couldnt catch a cup of water if he fell out of a boat.
as an ademant twill backer, i agree, hes a bust

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OL Ryan Cook again 2nd rounder?
yeap, you nailed it, decent starting RT is definitely a bust....idiot

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DL Kenichi Udueze the guy is good on run defense but has never lived up to his billing.
a very solid DE, starting, contributes and is a vital part of our defense....again...your an absolute idiot

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Erasumus James the only guy to play less then robert smith did his first 4 years @ the vikings
ill agree, tho i still am holding out some hope, he just seems like he doesnt have motivation,

the only thing you proved to me here, is that you arent a good football mind at all
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Old 02-23-2008, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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wow...i agree those werent the smartest picks but to personal attack him? that shows ur mind.
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Old 02-26-2008, 03:01 AM    (permalink
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No any coach whod put his job on the line for a second round qb who threw 9 tds and 12 ints and did little or nothing to back him up. IS an IDIOT he has a top 5 Defense and an offense who couldnt Pass Gas.
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Old 02-26-2008, 08:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by crazyisme View Post
ummm, okay, you're an idiot right off the bat, 2 years into his career hes started 16 games and he has gotten noticeably better towards the end of last year, not even close to a bust....yet
Better = well below average. T-Jax sucks, and if he doesn't get much better than he was showing even at the end of the year, he'll never keep a starting job in the NFL.
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yeap, you nailed it, decent starting RT is definitely a bust....idiot
Decent RT? Hilarious.
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Originally Posted by crazyisme View Post
a very solid DE, starting, contributes and is a vital part of our defense....again...your an absolute idiot
A vital part of an average defense, and damn near incapable of pressuring the QB.
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the only thing you proved to me here, is that you arent a good football mind at all
You either agreed with the dude, or called him an idiot for things that can really go either way. There's no way in hell that any of these guys have contributed anything that merit you insulting him.
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Old 02-26-2008, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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Better = well below average. T-Jax sucks, and if he doesn't get much better than he was showing even at the end of the year, he'll never keep a starting job in the NFL.
[sarcasm]As we all know no young QB should be expected to ever struggle during their first 14 starts as a NFL QB. Also the ones that do struggle NEVER amount to anything in the NFL.[/sarcasm]

He progressed and got better as the season went on thats about all you can look for in young QB's.
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Old 02-26-2008, 10:30 PM    (permalink
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Where did he get better? he threw 9 touchdowns and 12 ints? When exactly did this huge progression happen? My point is we gave up two picks to get one player and then we havent dared got anyone to present even the slightest amount of competition for the guy. We handed him a keys to the car and now we are trying to find something anything he did right. I agree he had horrible wide outs yet another place we havent drafted well.

Im sorry I feel yet another guy we traded up for Ryan Cook who most would agree wasnt going any where we jumped on him way too early we could of easily gotten him with one of the two picks we traded away in the third round. and still gotten someone else to help our team. The guy simply is ok at best and we cant even decide what position the guy plays yet.

Udueze and James were both first round picks they need to produce some sacks thats why you get drafted in the first round. SACKS you can get plenty of Darrian Scotts in the second round to come in and give marginal presure and stuff the run. THEY are BUSTS. I pray every thing works out of Udueze health wise. I truly mean that. But Again the vikings dropped the ball. If you take away K Williams we havent drafted a good / great Defensive player in the first round since Dewayne Washington in the Mid Nintys. I still have hopes for Greenway. But look at our defense for christ sake we drafted one freaking starter in the first round. 1
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Old 02-26-2008, 10:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Chris View Post
[sarcasm]As we all know no young QB should be expected to ever struggle during their first 14 starts as a NFL QB. Also the ones that do struggle NEVER amount to anything in the NFL.[/sarcasm]

He progressed and got better as the season went on thats about all you can look for in young QB's.
Did I say anything suggesting other wise? No. I said he must improve to keep a starting job. You'd have to be foolish to disagree with that thought. Although he is still very young and may very well improve greatly this year, he was without a doubt one of the 5 worst starting QBs last season, and even as he improved, he was still very poor.

As for what I can ask of a young QB, is it not fair to hope he can perform well? I'm not ready to throw him under the bus completely, but to call him anything other than bad so far is odd, at best.

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Old 02-26-2008, 11:58 PM    (permalink
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Where did he get better? he threw 9 touchdowns and 12 ints? When exactly did this huge progression happen? My point is we gave up two picks to get one player and then we havent dared got anyone to present even the slightest amount of competition for the guy. We handed him a keys to the car and now we are trying to find something anything he did right. I agree he had horrible wide outs yet another place we haven't drafted well.
Dude. This was the First Time i even Came to this Thread and When I saw you having Tarvaris Jackson as Bust. You are telling me You are Judging Tarvaris Jackson at this stage of 16 Career Starts? You gotta be crazy. How can we judge a Kid who only has 16 career starts and your calling him a bust. By that You should just call a good percentage of the Rookie QB's a bust. After that hit he took against the Chargers and was hurt and the next game he came back played very well. In the 5 games he Played before that game His Completion average was 45.74% then when he was injured and he came back in which he played 7 games his completion average was 67.75%. If You cant see the Progression than I don't know what to tell you.

He doesn't deserve to be labeled as a Bust after 16 Career Starts. Also Lets face it Dude. There Was No one Better anyways. He went 8-4 this year. We went 8-8 whats that tell ya.

Like You said Our Receivers are Bad and he cant succeed if he doesn't have help so thats our problem. Is not having Wideouts, Not Tarvaris.
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:22 AM    (permalink
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God, I hate when people attribute team success to a player that did very little to positively determine the outcome of that game. Jackson was 8-4 as a starter, but ranged from awful to mediocre in those games, tending to stick at awful for the most part. The fact that Brooks Bollinger is even worse doesn't help Jackson going forward, because if he fails to improve, the Vikings will make damn sure there is a better option.
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:35 AM    (permalink
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God, I hate when people attribute team success to a player that did very little to positively determine the outcome of that game. Jackson was 8-4 as a starter, but ranged from awful to mediocre in those games, tending to stick at awful for the most part. The fact that Brooks Bollinger is even worse doesn't help Jackson going forward, because if he fails to improve, the Vikings will make damn sure there is a better option.
He is 8-4 as a Starter No matter what. Even if Peterson or the Defense helped out. He was the Quaterback the player who leads the team. He didn't screw up like before when we had a 5 game win streak.

He maybe playing Medicore as you say but calling him a Bust is ridiculous. Give Him another year or a year and a half before calling him a bust.
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Old 02-27-2008, 01:10 AM    (permalink
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Here's the funnier stat.

grossman and peyton manning have about the same int/td ratio at the same career starts.

i don't think jackson is a bust yet. but ineffective thus far? totally. like kyle orton is ineffective (ish).
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Old 02-27-2008, 01:23 AM    (permalink
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Where did he get better? he threw 9 touchdowns and 12 ints? When exactly did this huge progression happen? My point is we gave up two picks to get one player and then we havent dared got anyone to present even the slightest amount of competition for the guy. We handed him a keys to the car and now we are trying to find something anything he did right. I agree he had horrible wide outs yet another place we havent drafted well.
You are completely right Kid_Ego he never got better I mean this totally shows how he was equally bad all year long.

First Six 2007 Starts:
Completions: 68 | Attempts: 132 | 51.5% | Yards: 771 | YPA: 5.84 | TD: 2 | Int: 6 Ints | Average Rating: 60.8 | Rushes 16 | Rush Yards 84 | Rush TD: 1

Last Six 2007 Starts:
Completions: 103 | Attempts: 162 | 63.6% | Yards: 1140 | YPA: 7.04 | TD: 7 | Int: 6(one thanks to Ferguson basically throwing the ball to Urlacher) | Average Rating: 91.5 | Rushes 38 | Rush Yards: 176 | Rush TD: 2
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:45 AM    (permalink
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No Chris your right the kid played 12 games of a 16 game season. He killed our running game by either not being able to audible or his coach not trusting him to either way. The fact is when 9 - 10 guys in the box he still was only able to be average. If he is this great diamond in the rough it seems to me competition would only make him better. I just dont get it with you people you all agree he is a project but your scared to put people on the team that would compete with him. During the late ninetys did we worry about this? WHen we had Brad johnson Randall Cunningham Jeff George and Daunte Culpepper? Did we worry about hurting any of those guys feelings by bringing in competition? DId the Niners worry about it by aquiring Steve young while Montana was still winning superbowls? Or the packers when even after they had a young gunslinger they still went on to draft Mark Brunell Matt Hasselbeck Ty Detmer And Kurt Warner? NO this kind of management is how you never improve. Tom Brady was drafted shortly after there not so old QB Bledsoe had led them to the freaking superbowl. Good Teams dont sit idle they make competition at every position. Including QB.
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Old 02-28-2008, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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Alex Smith came in and threw 1td to 11ints and people are still giving him time, we're killing Jackson for 9td-12int (plus 3 rushing td's) whilst going 8-4? I mean I dont like mentioning the record but if he's THAT bad how we went 0-4 in the other games doesnt quite make sense to me.

There's a subtle difference between arguing competition and killing a guy in his first year starting on a mediocre team.
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Old 02-28-2008, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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If you saw the last game of the Vikings season against Denver, you know everything you need to know about TJack.

He brought them back in the game, showed off his potential, and played Great w/o AP or Chester giving him much and w/ Williamson showing how 'great' the receivers are (Hey, hey...can ya feeeeeel the sarcasm with that last one?)...

and then he muffed it in overtime. He's close. TJack's earned another season, and if people were saying AlexSmith was gonna breakout last year, they should be saying TJack is gonna breakout this year.

That said, this season is make-or-break for him. Here's hopin' he makes it.
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:20 PM    (permalink
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Alex Smith came in and threw 1td to 11ints and people are still giving him time, we're killing Jackson for 9td-12int (plus 3 rushing td's) whilst going 8-4? I mean I dont like mentioning the record but if he's THAT bad how we went 0-4 in the other games doesnt quite make sense to me.

There's a subtle difference between arguing competition and killing a guy in his first year starting on a mediocre team.
First of all, these are totally different situations. Alex Smith went first overall, and the 49ers are financially tied to him for now, and even with the fear of having an extremely rich backup, there are rumbings that he will never amount to anyhting and people want him benched. Bringing up another player who has sucked doesn't make your player's season any better.

Only providing 12 total TDs in as many games, and less than 2,000 yards and a 58 completion percentage clearly had more to do with the 8-4 record than Adrian Peterson's huge year. You went 0-4 without T-Jax, because as bad as he was, the Vikings running game didn't need him. The Vikings didn't run the ball well in those games, or the 4 losses he started in. There were only 2 wins by the Vikings this year that a RB did not score 2+ TDs. One was against the Falcons, and the other was the Giants game that the Vikings defense outscored either offense.

There's also a subtle difference between improving and playing well. He had more TDs than turnovers 2 times this year and had 200+ yards 3 times this year. That's simply bad. Of course he should get another year, but he certainly has an incredibly long way to go to be a quality starter. Hell, he has quite a long way to go to be an average starter.

Last edited by mqtirishfan : 02-28-2008 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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I completely agree with MT,Other teams have brought in competition for better qbs and succeed Mike Holmgren drafts qbs almost every year always trying to upgrade even with the great Brett Farve he brought in Brunell just in case this is what seperates GREAT Organizations from Want to be's Not committing to unproven talent. Did the Patriots bat an eye to draft Cassill or the niners flinch to bring in steve young?

A truely Great GM bring in competition at every position. And as for your Great T-Jack come Back to me its like Elways 4th Quarter come backs sure he had a bunch to some it might show leadership to me it shows his team was losing alot of close games going into the fourth quarter. You might see that as impressive I see that as a huge problem.

Or Brett Farves consecitive starts for christ sakes the one year he three 26 ints and 12 tds anybody else's consequetive starts would of ended some where around 20 ints. He would of then been holding a clip board and handing out gatorade.

SO this whole 8-4 record how good could he really of been he had 9 tds all season. And that is with two of those coming in his lose to the broncos. Im simply saying. When we had Johnson at qb we went and got cunningham and george then still drafted Culpepper that is smart. Having a second round reach and noone to make him better is stupid. And what about the 4 games he didnt play in that is another concern. Candy coat it if you wish but most of the teams he beat are picking in front of us. ANd Eli Manning beat the giants. Not T-jack
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by mqtirishfan View Post
First of all, these are totally different situations. Alex Smith went first overall, and the 49ers are financially tied to him for now, and even with the fear of having an extremely rich backup, there are rumbings that he will never amount to anyhting and people want him benched. Bringing up another player who has sucked doesn't make your player's season any better.

Only providing 12 total TDs in as many games, and less than 2,000 yards and a 58 completion percentage clearly had more to do with the 8-4 record than Adrian Peterson's huge year. You went 0-4 without T-Jax, because as bad as he was, the Vikings running game didn't need him. The Vikings didn't run the ball well in those games, or the 4 losses he started in. There were only 2 wins by the Vikings this year that a RB did not score 2+ TDs. One was against the Falcons, and the other was the Giants game that the Vikings defense outscored either offense.

There's also a subtle difference between improving and playing well. He had more TDs than turnovers 2 times this year and had 200+ yards 3 times this year. That's simply bad. Of course he should get another year, but he certainly has an incredibly long way to go to be a quality starter. Hell, he has quite a long way to go to be an average starter.
You're going to have to stretch as it's fairly difficult to find 2 identical situations in todays nfl to compare im afraid. Thanks for the extremely helpful sarcasm though, completely misread the point I was trying to make and responded with a point I in no way whatsoever tried to make but I wont take it personally, it's cool I probably over simplified the post anyway.

In fact im not even sure why you're quoting me. You're telling me things you've assumed I must be thinking and then come to the conclusion that I'm already at. If you got confused when I said i'm completely open to the possibility of him being out of the league in a couple of years then that's hardly my fault, but you probably shouldnt be talking to me as if i've in any way stated anything other than the fact I think it's irresponsible and short sighted to be killing him as much as some people in this thread have done, which judging the last couple of lines in your reply you dont seem to have a problem with.
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Old 02-28-2008, 08:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by rchrd View Post
In fact im not even sure why you're quoting me
It had quite a bit to do with the whole 8-4 argument. Really, if you can't put points/yards, or protect the ball, or put up a decent completion percentage, you had an awful year. I figured the fact that you used one of the most prevalent pro-Jackson points meant you thought he was anything other than bad for the season.

I'm not arguing against the notion of giving him more time, or for the idea of him being a bust. I'm just claiming that he has been a horrible QB thusfar, which some people seem to have a major problem with.
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Old 02-28-2008, 08:48 PM    (permalink
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ANd Im simply saying stop sheltering him and find him some competition Brett remained the starter its time for this project to man up or ship out
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