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Old 01-18-2011, 03:20 PM    (permalink
FlyingElvis
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Originally Posted by DMWSackMachine View Post
I was thinking about doing a major writeup on the subject, but I don't think it needs to be spelled out at this point. Be careful when attributing a team's ability to win to a single player, and keep the subject of Super Bowl victories in perspective when discussing the hierarchy of QBs in the history of this league. Tom Brady is a much better QB today than he was in 2004, yet his track record over the last 6 years looks remarkably similar to that of Peyton Manning from 2000 to 20005.

He's now 4-5 in the playoffs since then, including a mark of just 2-5 against teams that he played in the regular season. Where is his clutchness now? Where is his sense of the moment? Where is his rises-to-the-occasion ability?

Exactly, all that talk was a bunch of crap then and it is a bunch of crap now. The only thing that Brady lovers are left with now is a load of excuses about how his supporting cast failed him in this situation or that situation, and how he did what he could with what he had yadda yadda yadda.

In other words, its a team game and you win as a team. Brady is a very good QB, maybe even great. However, he has yet to bring his team back from any sizable deficit to win a playoff game (and I struggle to remember a time he's done it in the regular season, but I'm sure its happened....right?) and tonight, when the game was on the line and his team needed 7 points, all he could come up with was a FG. The best QBs, the Elways, Montanas, Staubachs, Unitases and, yes, Mannings are able to bring their teams back in that situation. Brady couldn't do it. Brady never has done it.

But if you are tied and need 3 points to win the game....hey, he's your man.
The Patriots have had their success behind the coaching of Bill Belichick and the mantra "Do Your Job."

Anybody "attributing a team's ability to win to a single player" is sadly mistaken. The fact that you created a thread based on this notion is silly, and makes me think of the famous adage "never argue with a fool . . . "
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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And the fact that you make a post suggesting that its ludicrous for me to create such a thread with overtones of bitterness and hostility in your words, makes me think that you really don't mean what you just said. Or maybe you just have your head in the sand and haven't heard the last 7 years of everyone and their dog giving Brady all the credit for those Super Bowl victories.

Either way, it sounds like we have the same assessment of the team, so there shouldn't be any arguments.
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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The Patriots have had their success behind the coaching of Bill Belichick and the mantra "Do Your Job."

Anybody "attributing a team's ability to win to a single player" is sadly mistaken. The fact that you created a thread based on this notion is silly, and makes me think of the famous adage "never argue with a fool . . . "
Wait a second...so all the patriot fans who said that Brady's 3 super bowl wins were what made him better than Manning were wrong because they werent Brady's super bowls, they were won by the Patriots? Gee, people have been saying that for...years? Sorry about sounding like a dick, i agree with what you said 100%. Just because the media spews the 'qb who wins the super bowl is best' bs doesnt make it remotely true. What if Sanchez wins the super bowl this year? Do we annoint him as this great qb or do we realize hes a part of a great team?

Ive been saying forever that qb is important yes but winning super bowls are overrated for qb's. Teams win championships, not individuals. Tom Brady didnt beat the Rams, the New England Patriots did. Peyton Manning didnt beat the Bears, the Indianapolis Colts did.
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Old 01-18-2011, 04:42 PM    (permalink
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so the answer is a resounding 'no, i have nothing compelling whatsoever to offer and am just trolling.'

thanks, i'm stoked i didn't waste my time.

This coming from the guy who has never written anything compelling in his life, but feels the need to say "NO YOU ARE WRONG" in every thread.

I learned to not argue with you, because you won't go at my argument, you'll dance around in circles, put words in my mouth, and argue semantics.
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fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
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Old 01-18-2011, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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There is certainly a mark against Peyton for his playoff performances, and I'm not going to apologize for them. But lets remember, every team he's faced has gone in thinking that they just had to stop Peyton to beat the Colts. He's the only person on that list who won a Super Bowl under such conditions.
So when Brady won his superbowls people were saying lets stop antowne(Sp?) smith and we beat the pats? Peyton was stopped in his superbowl run, he had 3 TDs and 7 INts in 4 playoff games. Peyton has choked to many times to be considered better than Brady.

People like to blame the Colts D for Peytons loses but in 7 (8 maybe more if you count all the INTs that were returned for TDs) of his playoff loses the colts oppents were held to 24 points or less.

Peyton should thank the broncos and Cheifs for padding his playoff stats.
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Old 01-18-2011, 05:41 PM    (permalink
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i didn't know i had a stalker.
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Old 01-18-2011, 05:51 PM    (permalink
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Wait a second...so all the patriot fans who said that Brady's 3 super bowl wins were what made him better than Manning were wrong because they werent Brady's super bowls, they were won by the Patriots? Gee, people have been saying that for...years? Sorry about sounding like a dick, i agree with what you said 100%. Just because the media spews the 'qb who wins the super bowl is best' bs doesnt make it remotely true. What if Sanchez wins the super bowl this year? Do we annoint him as this great qb or do we realize hes a part of a great team?

Ive been saying forever that qb is important yes but winning super bowls are overrated for qb's. Teams win championships, not individuals. Tom Brady didnt beat the Rams, the New England Patriots did. Peyton Manning didnt beat the Bears, the Indianapolis Colts did.
That's just not how it works though. I agree with what you're saying, but QB's are held most responsible. They get the glory for winning and are the goats for losing (for the most part). It's the most important position in Football. Or well at least it's viewed as such.

The QB is the face of the franchise and therefore a lot of the credit goes in their direction. Is it fair? No. Without a good defense and special teams it's extremely hard for a QB to win, but it is what it is and there's not much we can do about it.

The value of the QB position is so far above anyone else on the field. Why do you think GM's are willing to take a chance on a 'possible franchise QB' with sure things on the board?

Example: Bradford over Suh.
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Despite looking better against an underachieving Eagles team, I still think the Bears are one of the worst teams in the NFL. I smell a blowout victory by the Lions this week and a division sweep.
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Old 01-18-2011, 05:54 PM    (permalink
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That super bowl Reggie White and the Pack's special team just killed the Patriots. Favre really didn't need to do anything special to win that game.
Please, just shut up.

It took him all of two plays to do something special. Second play of the game for the Packers, Favre sees something in the Patriots defense, audibles, and throws a perfect 54 yard TD to Andre Rison.

The Packers got up 10-0, but then the defense let the Patriots take the lead 14-10. Two drives after their second TD, Favre throws an 81 yard TD to Freeman, for the (then) longest TD pass in Super Bowl history.

He also had a running TD, and threw for a successful two point conversion.
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Old 01-18-2011, 05:54 PM    (permalink
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****, Matt Stover did more for the Ravens than Dilfer did and no one mentions the former having a ring. Dilfer's career isn't viewed as a failure because he road on the coattails of a dominant defense and run game, but he played QB and there en lies the value of the position. Or at least the perception of the position and its value.
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Old 01-18-2011, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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People got bored of the Dilfer example. It seems like everyone has finally stopped using the "but Dilfer has a ring" example.
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Old 01-18-2011, 07:29 PM    (permalink
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If Big Ben wins another ring does he get considering for being a top 5 QB? I know he's had an elite defense and talent around him offensively, but he makes big plays in big games consistently. There's no doubt in my mind that I'm giving the ball to either he and Brady with the game on the line.

His team puts him in good positions and he takes advantage of his opportunities. That to me is the sign of a great QB.
I think Ben could move into the top ten with another ring, and passes Bradshaw as best Steeler QB but I still need to see him have a few seasons where he is considered the best QB in the game. He's had strong seasons not the earth shattering, elite season that the other top guns have had (Brady 07, Manning 04, Montana 89, Marino 84, etc.)
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Old 01-18-2011, 07:38 PM    (permalink
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So when Brady won his superbowls people were saying lets stop antowne(Sp?) smith and we beat the pats? Peyton was stopped in his superbowl run, he had 3 TDs and 7 INts in 4 playoff games. Peyton has choked to many times to be considered better than Brady.

People like to blame the Colts D for Peytons loses but in 7 (8 maybe more if you count all the INTs that were returned for TDs) of his playoff loses the colts oppents were held to 24 points or less.

Peyton should thank the broncos and Cheifs for padding his playoff stats.

Yes, actually. They were saying let's stop Antowain Smith. http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/200202...nalyze#analyze

Unless you think that Tom and his 145 yards and 5.4 YPA average were keeping them up at night. (10-18 for 92 yards through the first 58.5 minutes of the game, btw)

I don't just blame the Colts D. There's a lot of it to go around. Jim Mora Sr. was one of the most inept offensive HCs of all time and was terrible at making adjustments in game. There's a reason why he got fired despite having a very solid W/L record and taking his team to the playoffs every year. The OL got routinely dominated in those years. Edge couldn't get anything going. The defense couldn't make any plays and get Peyton in favorable positions....and, yes, Peyton made some poor throws, wasn't able to make his reads quick enough (or at all) and probably got a little overwhelmed with the pressure. But even with all that, if Petyon had the luxury of playing a poor game but still being able to take the field with 2:00 to go, score tied and just needing to lead his team to a FG, do you think he wouldn't be able to do so? Oh, wait, we saw that story already. Here's how it played out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1HPE...eature=related
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Old 01-18-2011, 08:03 PM    (permalink
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I agree with you DMW. When Brady needed to make a play he wasn't able to make the play when he needed to, granted the Jets D is tough but that is what you expect out of him.


But what do we ALWAYS see out of Big Ben? When the Ravens were ready to pounce, Ben leads them down the field for the go ahead TD, not a FG. And he ALWAYS does it too. It's time to really start giving him credit, he's probably the best QB in the league right now when the game is on the line, and I don't think he's any worse then 3rd best QB in the NFL right now.


Rodgers has been simply amazing and maybe he'll be #1 after this post-season, I'd really like a Big Ben/ARod SB though to add some flame to that debate. But I can't argue with Brady looking pretty shaky, but at the same time he wasn't gonna win 8 SB's and whoever thought he was was kidding yourself. He still might win 2 more and then what will we say?


He didn't come through in the clutch, he's not as clutch as Ben, but I don't see any reason to bash him too hard. He has been mediocre in the post-season as of late, but I think all this shows is you just have to be hot at the right time.
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Old 01-18-2011, 08:09 PM    (permalink
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I think Ben could move into the top ten with another ring, and passes Bradshaw as best Steeler QB but I still need to see him have a few seasons where he is considered the best QB in the game. He's had strong seasons not the earth shattering, elite season that the other top guns have had (Brady 07, Manning 04, Montana 89, Marino 84, etc.)
I hear this knock against Ben alot, and I had it also, but let's be honest. Playing for the Steelers how many chances is he gonna have to throw it enough to be a dominant QB on the stat sheet? His impact doesn't even show up on the stat sheet. There are just too many times you need a big play, in the clutch, he makes it. He makes it vs tough defenses also, no matter who he is facing.


I don't know how the Steelers won't win 2-3 more SB's with Ben as QB if the defense continues to play as well as they are. And I have no problem if someone wants to give credit to that D, but let's not ignore all the big plays he needs to make to win games either.
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Old 01-18-2011, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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I'm not a big fan of Elway simply because of the rivalry but the guy did defy some odds. He literally was the only skilled guy on his teams during their earlier Superbowl runs. You want to talk about a team relying on their quarterback, take a long hard look at Elway and what he was able to accomplish by himself with literally no talent.

It's hard to list QBs so I'll go in no particular order the ones that I respect:
Montana
Elway
Peyton
Marino
Aikman (yeah I know)

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Old 01-18-2011, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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I'm not a big fan of Elway simply because of the rivalry but the guy did defy some odds. He literally was the only skilled guy on his teams during their earlier Superbowl runs. You want to talk about a team relying on their quarterback, take a long hard look at Elway and what he was able to accomplish by himself with literally no talent.

It's hard to list QBs so I'll go in no particular order the ones that I respect:
Montana
Elway
Peyton
Marino
Aikman (yeah I know)
I don't understand why Aikman gets so much flack for playing on that cowboy's team. He was in his own right a great QB. I remember him have a rocket arm and was the most accurate QB during his time. But he did play with emmit and that crazy cowboy's line.
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Old 01-18-2011, 10:41 PM    (permalink
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Not enough Steve Young mention in here, I thought he was the best around his peak, and that was before I became heavy into stats.

He doesn't have the longevity to take a super high spot, but when Steve Young was at his best, he was about as good as anyone, absolutely phenomenal.
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Old 01-19-2011, 04:49 AM    (permalink
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I hear this knock against Ben alot, and I had it also, but let's be honest. Playing for the Steelers how many chances is he gonna have to throw it enough to be a dominant QB on the stat sheet? His impact doesn't even show up on the stat sheet. There are just too many times you need a big play, in the clutch, he makes it. He makes it vs tough defenses also, no matter who he is facing.


I don't know how the Steelers won't win 2-3 more SB's with Ben as QB if the defense continues to play as well as they are. And I have no problem if someone wants to give credit to that D, but let's not ignore all the big plays he needs to make to win games either.

Here's where I disagree. First, I don't see how or why playing for the Steelers should hold him back. They throw the ball enough, he's already thrown for 4300 yards last year. They get the perception of a run heavy team due to their past seasons but I don't see that in the current Steelers at all. He has a young star receiver going forward in Wallace and a solid corps of supporting receivers to boot.

And second. I'm all for praising Ben, trust me I'm a fan of his as a football player but all the new buzz words for Ben, clutch, makes plays that don't show in the stats, etc...the same things are said for Brady when he's in a groove or in the middle of a playoff push. This is to the point of ridiculousness now, I'm far from a Pats fan but some of you need to wake up to the fact that Brady is an elite all time QB.

Brady is the best player on the Patriots, always has been, always will be. Of course, the Patriots have had good players over the years, and some great ones, but Brady is the best, and he's the constant. To say that he isn't "the man"/hasn't won as "the man" is flat out ridiculous. In fact, he's one of the few players that you can arguably say has been "the man" every second of his starting career (Ben is another one - again the double standard in this debate - why not praise Brady too?). The team he took over was 5-11 with Drew Bledsoe as their starting QB in 2000, and off to an 0-2 start with him in 2001.

When you add up all the career accomplishments, it equals a top five QB, at the very least of the modern (post merger) era. He's had the MVP, elite seasons. He obviously has the rings, with two super bowl winning drives as a bonus. 4 more good years and he hits the magical 50,000 yard mark. Should end his career top five in all the relevant long term numbers. Owns the single season passing TD record, which to me is one of those magical leader-boards (like the MLB home run record pre steroids). That has a very good chance of standing up for many years, since there have only been five seasons over 40 TD's in NFL history.

So Brady lost a playoff game. He didn't play his best game. IT HAPPENS. I'm sure Joe Montana is still angry about the 1990 NFC championship. All the top dogs have failed at some point as the S.B. favorites. If you want to get on him about spygate or whatever, fine. I guess that could be a legitimate gripe but other than that I fail to see how he isn't in the pantheon of top all time QB's.
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:38 AM    (permalink
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This is probably the best recieving core Ben has ever gotten to throw to, and two are rookies. He got 4300 yards last year setting the Steelers passing record by a huge margin, mainly because they were always in tight games. And after his best passing season, the Steelers owner came out and said he wanted the team to run the ball more.

Being on the Steelers, Ben will never have one of those 50 touchdown seasons. It's just never going to happen. Simply not how the offense works. Even with the way they've opened the offense lately, they still have a commitment to running the ball and don't let Ben air it out as we've seen Rodgers, Manning, and Brady all get to do.

But as for Brady, I think he is a great QB. One of the easiest knocks to make on him is that the tea won superbowls before he was the main man. He played great in the years they won, I'm not trying to take anything away from him, but in the seasons where they put it all on Brady and he had the dominant stats, they didn't win the Superbowl. Brady was a great QB in the super bowl seasons, but when the team was built to throw the ball, he was unable to bring in a title. It could easily be argued that he hasn't won since becoming te true leader of that team.
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:38 AM    (permalink
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This is probably the best recieving core Ben has ever gotten to throw to, and two are rookies. He got 4300 yards last year setting the Steelers passing record by a huge margin, mainly because they were always in tight games. And after his best passing season, the Steelers owner came out and said he wanted the team to run the ball more.

Being on the Steelers, Ben will never have one of those 50 touchdown seasons. It's just never going to happen. Simply not how the offense works. Even with the way they've opened the offense lately, they still have a commitment to running the ball and don't let Ben air it out as we've seen Rodgers, Manning, and Brady all get to do.

But as for Brady, I think he is a great QB. One of the easiest knocks to make on him is that the tea won superbowls before he was the main man. He played great in the years they won, I'm not trying to take anything away from him, but in the seasons where they put it all on Brady and he had the dominant stats, they didn't win the Superbowl. Brady was a great QB in the super bowl seasons, but when the team was built to throw the ball, he was unable to bring in a title. It could easily be argued that he hasn't won since becoming te true leader of that team.
If Ward retires, which of the 2 rookies do I draft next year?
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Old 01-19-2011, 09:02 AM    (permalink
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If Ward retires, which of the 2 rookies do I draft next year?
Sanders definitely. He has been the number 3 all year and runs great routes. Brown hasn't played nearly as much as Sanders. He's made some big plays on 3rd and longs this year but Sanders gets a lot more play time. I think Sanders is going to develop into a great receiver. As long as Arians stays and uses his multiple TE sets the #3 receiver won't get a great deal of looks.

Ill be devastated if Ward retires.
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Old 01-19-2011, 09:04 AM    (permalink
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Sanders definitely. He has been the number 3 all year and runs great routes. Brown hasn't played nearly as much as Sanders. He's made some big plays on 3rd and longs this year but Sanders gets a lot more play time. I think Sanders is going to develop into a great receiver. As long as Arians stays and uses his multiple TE sets the #3 receiver won't get a great deal of looks.

Ill be devastated if Ward retires.
I saw Sanders in the PS and he was KILLING it. I was like hmmmmm, and kept a mental note to keep an eye on him.

I think as long as Ward is there though, Sanders won't put up the numbers you look for in a fantasy WR.

I like Sanders a lot though.
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Old 01-19-2011, 09:09 AM    (permalink
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No Steelers #3 will put up great numbers. Arians loves to run 2 WR 2 TE sets so the 3rd receiver really only sees the field on passing downs and 2 minute drills.

I love what I've seen from him, but it's unlikely he'll put up numbers anything close to those Wallace had his rookie year as the #3, mainly because the Steelers threw the ball everywhere because they were in tight games.
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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Brady is the best player on the Patriots, always has been, always will be. Of course, the Patriots have had good players over the years, and some great ones, but Brady is the best, and he's the constant. To say that he isn't "the man"/hasn't won as "the man" is flat out ridiculous. In fact, he's one of the few players that you can arguably say has been "the man" every second of his starting career (Ben is another one - again the double standard in this debate - why not praise Brady too?). The team he took over was 5-11 with Drew Bledsoe as their starting QB in 2000, and off to an 0-2 start with him in 2001.

You could not possibly be more wrong. For starters, let's compare and contrast the offensive players around Brady from 01-04 with this season's cast.

SB Teams

WR________

Troy Brown - Borderline PBer. In 01 season, best player on either list.
Deion Branch - Solid #1 for a non-passing offense, won SB MVP
David Patten - Solid 2nd, excellent 3rd option, gives you about 55/750/6
David Givens - Solid 2nd, excellent 3rd option, gives you about 55/800/4

TE________

Daniel Graham - Excellent blocker and solid pass catcher, safety blanket type
Christian Fauria - Good blocker, marginal receiver


RB_________

Antowain Smith - Solid starter who produced 1200 yards and 10+ TDs in 01
Corey Dillon - Star for one season who dominated and was the focal point of the 04 team.
Kevin Faulk - Excellent scat back who does all the little things and fills in where needed


Now let's look at this year's team

WR__________

Randy Moss - Massive distraction early who didn't produce when he was there
Wes Welker - Good player, but not the same guy he was before the ACL
Brandon Tate - Quality rookie who was able to contribute in a limited way
Deion Branch - Cast off who looked washed up until NE plucked him up and Brady breathed life into his dead body.

TE___________

Rob Gronkowski - Excellent talent, but still a rookie. How productive is he in, say...Cincinnati?
Aaron Hernandez - Ditto

RB___________

Law Firm - Marginal talent, found a way to squeeze production out of him
Danny Woodhead - Castoff plucked from someone else's practice squad
Fred Taylor - He's still in the league?


The respective supporting casts are, at BEST, equal. A more objective analysis says that the one Brady had around him in the 01-04 seasons was significantly better.

Yet this season's New England team led the league in scoring and Tom finished at the top of the passer rating chart, also leading the league in TD passes. The team as a whole finishes 14-2 despite having a defense that ranks 25th (including the worst 3rd down defense in the league) and relies entirely too much upon being able to force TOs.

Those Pats teams? They finished annually at the top of the league in every major defensive category. 1st or 2nd in points allowed. Top 5 in YPG, sacks, TOs....etc etc. But how about the offense? Oh, yeah...not so hot. Right around middle of the pack. Finishing 19th, 17th and 8th in YPG (01, 03 and 04 respectively) and 7th, 12th and 4th in PPG. Why the large discrepancy between their ability to move the ball and score the ball? Because the defense annually was at the top of the league in TOs forced (something that continued to this season, btw) and the team was always at the top of the league in points off turnovers. They also led the league in non-offensive TDs twice in that three year period.

What's the point? Brady was obviously just a solid cog in the engine. The team was FOUNDED on defense and creating TOs and favorable game situations. Their M.O., which they accomplished very well, was to keep their QB out of bad situations that forced him to have to carry the team. The numbers bear this out very, very well, yet guys like you add to the myth that is Tom Brady by wanting to go back and say that he was the best player on the team at the time. Its bull **** and it really pisses me off, because it cheapens what the truly amazing, top shelf QBs of all time have done. Why? Because people in this country are so god damned obsessed with resumes.

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When you add up all the career accomplishments, it equals a top five QB, at the very least of the modern (post merger) era. He's had the MVP, elite seasons. He obviously has the rings, with two super bowl winning drives as a bonus. 4 more good years and he hits the magical 50,000 yard mark. Should end his career top five in all the relevant long term numbers. Owns the single season passing TD record, which to me is one of those magical leader-boards (like the MLB home run record pre steroids). That has a very good chance of standing up for many years, since there have only been five seasons over 40 TD's in NFL history.
See? What happens here is that people use his SBs to validate his big-number seasons. If Brady comes into the league in 2005, and his career follows the EXACT SAME PATH that it has followed from then to now, all anyone in the league would be talking about is how he can't win the big game, how he chokes on the biggest stage and how his numbers look great but when it really matters, he folds.

Now that the guy is winning MVPs and playing as the focal point of his team, you say "well, look he can do that too!" as if that means that back in the old days Brady could have lit it up, but he just chose not to. Gag. The reality is that Brady is a much better QB today than he was then, but when he's had to come through and validate his status as one of the greatest, he's failed on the biggest stage. This playoff game is on him. If he gets a TD on that 3rd to last drive, his defense gave him the stop, and he scores another TD on that second to last drive, the Pats win that game. Both times the Pats had the ball deep in Jet territory. What did they get out of it? THREE POINTS. Mainly due to Brady failures. Yet no one says anything because the dude has three rings on his fingers.


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So Brady lost a playoff game. He didn't play his best game. IT HAPPENS. I'm sure Joe Montana is still angry about the 1990 NFC championship. All the top dogs have failed at some point as the S.B. favorites. If you want to get on him about spygate or whatever, fine. I guess that could be a legitimate gripe but other than that I fail to see how he isn't in the pantheon of top all time QB's.

This is funny to me. Joe was knocked out of that game when his team held the lead. It took a choke job of epic proportions by Roger Craig and Steve Young to get the Giants back in that game.

But even so, this is a pathetic excuse. Its not about this one time. Its about EVERY time. Its 6 years running now that Brady hasn't been able to produce a championship. This despite finishing with the best record in the league twice, a first round bye 4 times and even making it to the Super Bowl with an undefeated team. That's, minimum, 4 solid chances to do it and he's struck out every time. He's been "the man" now 5 times and yielded zero championships with a VERY CAPABLE team around him. This isn't a cracker jack squad like the late 80s-early 90s Dolphins or Broncos, or the 2010 Colts, etc. He's had the opportunity in his grasp, yet he's failed to show us that he can rise to the occasion.

If you want to put him up there with the very best ever, that is just simply unacceptable. He's a great QB. That's something I wouldn't have admitted 3 years ago. He's taken his game up several notches in the last half decade. The guy who won those SBs was just a very solid starter, nothing more. Now he's qualified as a great one, because he has consistently displayed the ability to carry his team to victories and showed that his mere presence on the squad is good enough to make them a playoff team. That's greatness. But if you want to be in the pantheon with the Joes, the Elways, the Staubachs and them, it takes a little more than that. He doesn't have it yet.
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, that whole theory gets shot to hell, though, when you consider how absolutely pitiful both Belichick and the Pats were with Bledsoe under center. Belichick's record with Bledsoe was 5-13 and he was well on his way towards getting fired. Brady won a Superbowl with the exact same players (minus a rookie Seymour) that fielded the sixth pick in the draft the year before.

And it's not like Bledsoe was completely inept at that point in his career, either, as he managed to have one of the best seasons in the league after they traded him to Buffalo.
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