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Old 06-01-2007, 06:17 PM    (permalink
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Default DR.Z (SI) Gonzo not a HOF?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...mailbag/2.html

Lingering HOF question from Sean of Chicago. Why did I leave Tony Gonzalez off my list? Because Todd Christensen, who can't get in, was better.

Stats

Todd Christensen - 461 receptions 5,874 yards and 52 TDs

Tony Gonzalez - 721 receptions 8,710 yards 61 TDs

???
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Old 06-01-2007, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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Christensen did put up bigger seasons while he was playing, but he only had a 4 year span of real dominance, while Gonzalez has been consistently excellent for 8 years now.

Longevity has to play a factor in the HOF voting.
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Old 06-01-2007, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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Christensen did put up bigger seasons while he was playing, but he only had a 4 year span of real dominance, while Gonzalez has been consistently excellent for 8 years now.

Longevity has to play a factor in the HOF voting.
i agree 100% i think longevity is very underrated...i think it should be more of a factor for entering the hall of fame
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Old 06-01-2007, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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wow, i just lost even more respect for Dr. Z, he is an idiot
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Old 06-01-2007, 06:41 PM    (permalink
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he is basically saying a guy that was top at his position for only a few years and put up great numbers should be a HOFer? While guys that are great for long periods of time but dont have as good of numbers in that span are not HOFers? he knows nothing
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Old 06-01-2007, 06:42 PM    (permalink
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wow, i just lost even more respect for Dr. Z, he is an idiot
well i will say this no homerism intended...if sharpe doesnt make it and gonzo does...then that is COMPLETE BS
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Old 06-01-2007, 06:43 PM    (permalink
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well i will say this no homerism intended...if sharpe doesnt make it and gonzo does...then that is COMPLETE BS
They are both HOF's in my book.
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Old 06-01-2007, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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While we are on that subject as much as I hate Denver I have to say they have been crapped on when it comes to HOF players getting in I believe Elway is the only one?
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Old 06-01-2007, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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While we are on that subject as much as I hate Denver I have to say they have been crapped on when it comes to HOF players getting in I believe Elway is the only one?
yep

and agree BOTH are HOF players...but if sharpe doesnt get in and Gonzo does....
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Old 06-01-2007, 07:10 PM    (permalink
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I don't see Sharpe not getting in stats plus rings he has to get in maybe not first ballot but he gets it. (I'm not saying he should not be first ballot just saying)
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Old 06-01-2007, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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Dr. Z is a moron, I hate his damn sexy picks every year that are usually wrong.
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Old 06-01-2007, 10:27 PM    (permalink
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I hate his logic, even if you think Todd was better its completely wrong to keep Gonzo off because Todd didn't get in. You shouldn't punish a player for a decision that he has no control over. If you think a player should get in vote for him.

For the Record I don't think Todd should have based on his lack of longevity and Gonzo should get in.
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Old 06-01-2007, 10:30 PM    (permalink
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wow, i just lost even more respect for Dr. Z, he is an idiot
Yeah... I pretty much lost whatever amount of respect, if any, I had for him when he questioned, even doubted, Favre to the HOF. Honestly, how do you get so stupid.
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Old 06-01-2007, 10:36 PM    (permalink
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well i will say this no homerism intended...if sharpe doesnt make it and gonzo does...then that is COMPLETE BS
Well, by the time Gonzalez retires he should pass Sharpe in just about every statistical category in less time than it took Sharpe.
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Old 06-01-2007, 10:38 PM    (permalink
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I guess Michael Irvin should not have gotten in then because Art Monk can't get in. At least, that is the logic Dr. Z is using.

What a tool.
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Old 06-02-2007, 12:13 AM    (permalink
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Top 5 TE's
1.Kellen Winslow
2a.Tony Gonzalez
2b.Shannon Sharpe
3. Mike Ditka


5.Todd Christensen
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Old 06-02-2007, 01:34 AM    (permalink
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Gonzalez needs something like 2 TDs to have the most receiving TDs of all time for a TE doesn't he?
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Old 06-02-2007, 01:50 AM    (permalink
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Gonzalez needs something like 2 TDs to have the most receiving TDs of all time for a TE doesn't he?
Yep

Sharpe has the record with 62 and Gonzalez has 61. Gonzalez will definitely pass up that record this year.

Here are Sharpe's career stats:

62 touchdowns
10,060 yards
815 receptions
12.3 average

Here are Gonzalez's career stats:

61 touchdowns
8,710 yards
721 receptions
12.1 average

Here is the difference between the two players' stats:

1 touchdown
1,350 yards
94 receptions

Barring any injury or major catastrophe Tony Gonzalez will have passed up Sharpe in touchdowns, yards, and receptions by at least the midpoint of the 2008 season if not sooner. At that point Gonzalez will be in his 12th season in the NFL.

Sharpe took 14 seasons to collect his stats. As mentioned previously, barring some catastrophe Gonzalez will have passed up Sharpe in yards, touchdowns, and receptions in two less seasons than it took Sharpe.

I also don't think it is a stretch to say Gonzalez will remain relatively productive until he is 35. That gives him 4 more seasons. Therefor, my predictions for Gonzalez's career statistics are as follows:

75 touchdowns
11,900 yards
979 receptions

That is a complete guess and is based on his stats going down a little bit more year by year. At that point he would lead every major statistical category for tight ends and would be at a point that would be hard for any tight end to reach. Antonio Gates could reach those numbers but he would have to play for a while.
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Old 06-02-2007, 02:10 AM    (permalink
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Top 5 TE's
1.Kellen Winslow
2a.Tony Gonzalez
2b.Shannon Sharpe
3. Mike Ditka


5.Todd Christensen
WOW. John Mackey? Ozzie Newsome? Dave Casper?
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Old 06-02-2007, 02:53 AM    (permalink
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http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...mailbag/2.html

Lingering HOF question from Sean of Chicago. Why did I leave Tony Gonzalez off my list? Because Todd Christensen, who can't get in, was better.

Stats

Todd Christensen - 461 receptions 5,874 yards and 52 TDs

Tony Gonzalez - 721 receptions 8,710 yards 61 TDs

???
I'm going to assume that Dr. Z's argument would be that the game was very different back when Christenson was playing than it is now. It is much friendlier to big numbers for TEs--Gates, Gonzo, Heap, Dallas Clark, Winslow, Witten and more.

That said, one could very well say it was Gonzalez (second to Shannon Sharpe admittedly) who revolutionized the position, leading the way for the rest of the four and five star TEs.

No matter what your stance on the issue, the argument here obviously has to go beyond pure statistics. Trying to compare statistics right across the board would with players from different eras (like the Christenson vs. Gonzalez debate) would be like comparing the numbers baseball players in the Hall of Fame from the 50s and 60s to players today. You are going to find players with superior numbers today, but they don't deserve to be in the Hall.

Guys like Pee Wee Reese from the Dodgers going up against a guy like Ray Durham (same position even) and Durham's stats are significantly better--yet no one will ever say that Durham deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Carl Yastrzemski and Jason Giambi is another example of similar stats (far better rate stats for Giambi) yet Giambi is just a very good player--nowhere near the Hall.

I'm not making a case either way, I'm just saying that a lot more needs to be taken into consideration than straight side-by-side statistical comparison.
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Old 06-02-2007, 03:04 AM    (permalink
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yep

and agree BOTH are HOF players...but if sharpe doesnt get in and Gonzo does....
I can't honestly say I'm in the know on who is going to be inducted and when, but I personally can't see the argument for Shannon Sharpe not getting into the Hall of Fame. As I just eluded to in my other post, Shannon Sharpe revolutionized the position and he is one of the best at the position. When determining Hall of Fame worthiness I think these things must be taken into account:

Dominance
Longevity
Championships
Actual statistical comparison
Effect on the game

Shannon Sharpe's career featured all of these elements in spades. Sharpe was dominant and he was dominant for a long time. He has 3 Super Bowl rings I believe (2 with Broncos one with the Ravens) he has the best receiving stats for a TE (for now) and as I already have stated, I feel he completely changed the position and changed the offensive game of football. He is the father of the modern receiving TE. That, in and of itself, should get him in.

That said, I would probably say that Gonzalez is the "firstborn" of the modern receiving TE, meaning that he was doing it for quite a while before anyone other than Sharpe was doing it.

But on the topic of Christenson, he also had an effect on the position. If Sharpe was the father, guys like Christenson, Casper and others were the godfather of the modern receiving TE. They laid the foundation for what it is today. That cannot be ignored.
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Old 06-02-2007, 03:05 AM    (permalink
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I'm not making a case either way, I'm just saying that a lot more needs to be taken into consideration than straight side-by-side statistical comparison.
Good point there, however, this argument simply makes Gonzalez's case stronger to me, since his numbers trump just about any TE during his era by a wide margin. The only one he doesn't completely beat out (at the moment) is Shannon Sharpe, who should be the next TE in line for the HOF. The era argument really only adds to his case though, since he's been so dominant for such a long time period, and will likely end up setting every significant record for TEs by the time his career is over, which is a rather large accomplishment in any era.
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Old 06-02-2007, 03:06 AM    (permalink
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That's true NIP, but I think the matter here is more of length of production than simply statistics. Is what Christensen did in his four years more impressive than Gonzalez? Absolutely, and even more so considering the era's they played in.

However, four years of production is a short amount of time in any era, and I don't think King or anyone could really try and say that it is enough to significantly overcome 8 very good years of production at the tight end position while being considered the best all-around player at your position.

The NFL HOF is very selective, so maybe neither have the numbers or reputation to get in. However, King's argument is suspect at best.
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Old 06-02-2007, 03:19 AM    (permalink
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Good point there, however, this argument simply makes Gonzalez's case stronger to me, since his numbers trump just about any TE during his era by a wide margin. The only one he doesn't completely beat out (at the moment) is Shannon Sharpe, who should be the next TE in line for the HOF. The era argument really only adds to his case though, since he's been so dominant for such a long time period, and will likely end up setting every significant record for TEs by the time his career is over, which is a rather large accomplishment in any era.
You are absolutely right. Don't be surprised if Antonio Gates breaks all of Gonzo's records in less time though. He certainly seems to be on the fast track to that territory. As of right now, Gates' 3 year averages are:

996 yds, 80.3 rec, 10.7 TDs, 12.4 ypc.

Gonzalez' best 3 year average wasn't until 2003, 2004, 2005, and even then, the only real edge that Gonzalez has in that 3-year period is yards (and by definition ypc). Gates has a better TD and reception rate in his last 3 years and he's just hitting his stride it would seem. Absolutely he needs to prove he has the same longevity as TG, but like I said, Gates seems to be on the fast track--after these last 3 years it's pretty safe to assume it's not fluke at least.

Again, though, part of my point is that the game is so quickly changing that records are being broken before the ink even dries now. The question remains is the dominance solely in statistics or is it in more than that.

That said, I agree, with Gonzo's dominance, with his longevity and his historical comparison (will likely rank at the top in every category) he should definitely get in the Hall.
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Old 06-02-2007, 03:33 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by nobodyinparticular View Post
Again, though, part of my point is that the game is so quickly changing that records are being broken before the ink even dries now. The question remains is the dominance solely in statistics or is it in more than that.
This is where I feel the era comparison comes into play. If it was simply a matter of the position evolving into more of a focal point in offenses (which, admittedly, it has to an extent), the feats of players like Sharpe, Gonzalez, and Gates would become more commonplace. It's rare to see a 70 reception season from a TE though (Gonzalez has done it 7 of the last 8 seasons), and even more rare to see a 1000 or even 900 yard season from a TE (Gonzalez has 2 1000 yard seasons (both in the 1200s) and 6 900 yard seasons in that same span), even now. When a player is well above the league averages at his position for his era, that is when it becomes clear that he is outplaying his counterparts at his position by a wide margin, which is, to me, the sign of a great player.
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The problem arises when people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support instead of illumination.

If luck is where preparation meets opportunity, then clutch is where failure meets luck.

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