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View Poll Results: who is the best defensive player
Champ Bailey 63 44.06%
Ed Reed 24 16.78%
Brian Urlacher 24 16.78%
Jason Taylor 7 4.90%
other 25 17.48%
Voters: 143. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-06-2007, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
uhh... bailey is not deion sanders. he does not simply take one guy out of the game. he plays at least two of your levels quite well (he's excellent in run support), and might even play the third level if our scheme involved him blitzing. i don't particularly care if you think someone else is a better defensive player (the question is a bit ridiculous), but from the words above, you've either not really watched bailey play, or you've forgotten the impact he's made on our defense. since darrent's rookie year, bailey is the only member of our secondary who's able to consistently and effectively tackle anyone out of the backfield, and he did it exceptionally well last season and might even be better if nick ferguson had any idea how to play his deep half.
You're absolutely right, I'm just biased against naming any corner the best defensive player in the game. Bailey's tackling is certainly impressive, I just have a thing for positions that are required to work their way through a ton of traffic to make their plays.
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Old 06-06-2007, 07:50 PM    (permalink
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Brian Urlacher.
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Old 06-06-2007, 08:04 PM    (permalink
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It would be Champ but Ed Is close
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Old 06-07-2007, 12:15 AM    (permalink
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I really think Peppers is either the best or top 3. He can do almost anything.
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Old 06-08-2007, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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Because he's the best player at the most important position, my vote goes to Urlacher, for mainly that reason only.
MLB is NOT the "most important" position in a Cover 2 defense.

Close.
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Old 06-08-2007, 08:35 PM    (permalink
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An argument could be made for the DE in the tampa 2 but without a MLB that has the ability to get back and cover the deep middle it would be a very successful defense.
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Old 06-08-2007, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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An argument could be made for the DE in the tampa 2 but without a MLB that has the ability to get back and cover the deep middle it would be a very successful defense.
This man speaks the truth. In reality though everything needs to be in order to run a perfect Tampa 2.

The MLB needs to be able to Drop WAY back.

RDE needs crazy penetration and needs one of the DTs to also get penetration.

The pressure up front helps the CBs play bump and zone better.

The SS needs to be able to play like a LB and come play run support and blitz.

The FS needs to be able to play some nickel.

The WLB needs to be able to swarm the ball and call out plays on most Tampa 2s.

It goes alot more indepth I just don't the exact formula.
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Old 06-09-2007, 09:39 AM    (permalink
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An argument could be made for the DE in the tampa 2 but without a MLB that has the ability to get back and cover the deep middle it would be a very successful defense.
Every position in a defense is important... but MLB is not the most important position in a cover 2 defense.

It's a fact.
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Old 06-09-2007, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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You want to support this "fact" at all or are you just going to keep saying it's a fact?
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Old 06-09-2007, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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You want to support this "fact" at all or are you just going to keep saying it's a fact?
WHAT!? Are you serious? I need to sit here and explain to you why DE is a more important position in a Cover 2 than MLB?

You've gotta be kidding me. I know you just claim to be a "draftguru" and not a "footballguru", but you've gotta know this.
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Old 06-09-2007, 12:07 PM    (permalink
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Please explain why that one DE is by far the most important position. Yes I really would like you to explain a claim that you are making, go figure.
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Old 06-09-2007, 12:13 PM    (permalink
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Julius Peppers. After the game he had against us, I can't say anyone else. Bailey and Jason Taylor are up there, too.
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Old 06-09-2007, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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DE's are always important, but they are indeed more important in the tampa 2 because that scheme relies on pressuring the QB to sack him or force bad throws. That is why they draft pass-rushers at DE and DB's with great ball skills, so they can make the big-play on a poorly thrown pass. It is certainly debatable to say that DE is the most important part of the tampa 2, I will agree with you on that Tacticalion.
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Old 06-09-2007, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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Hes not on the list but i will always take...
Julius Peppers
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Old 06-09-2007, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by draftguru151 View Post
Please explain why that one DE is by far the most important position. Yes I really would like you to explain a claim that you are making, go figure.
The pass-rush is the most important aspect of a Cover 2 defense... without a pass-rush, the defense falls apart.

The pass-rush is created from the DLine... NOT from the LBers and not from the secondary.

DE (and even DT) are more important positions in the Cover 2 defense than MLB.
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Old 06-09-2007, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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DE's are always important, but they are indeed more important in the tampa 2 because that scheme relies on pressuring the QB to sack him or force bad throws. That is why they draft pass-rushers at DE and DB's with great ball skills, so they can make the big-play on a poorly thrown pass. It is certainly debatable to say that DE is the most important part of the tampa 2, I will agree with you on that Tacticalion.
DE is the most important position in any defense. You can have the best DBs in the world but without a pass rush it will do you no good. But that goes for every defense. The tampa 2 does not work if that MLB can't get into that deep 3rd though. It's just really annoying when some one says, "it's fact" as an argument with nothing to support it. 4 above average guys can get pressure, but an outside LB isn't going to make up in coverage for what the MLB does.
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Old 06-09-2007, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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The pass-rush is the most important aspect of a Cover 2 defense... without a pass-rush, the defense falls apart.

The pass-rush is created from the DLine... NOT from the LBers and not from the secondary.

DE (and even DT) are more important positions in the Cover 2 defense than MLB.
My point is, that is 4 people, 4 people create a pass rush, only one guy covers that middle, and it's the MLB.
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Old 06-09-2007, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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DE is the most important position in any defense. You can have the best DBs in the world but without a pass rush it will do you no good. But that goes for every defense. The tampa 2 does not work if that MLB can't get into that deep 3rd though. It's just really annoying when some one says, "it's fact" as an argument with nothing to support it. 4 above average guys can get pressure, but an outside LB isn't going to make up in coverage for what the MLB does.
THEN WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU ARGUING!? Are you serious? Do you type to look cool? To feel better? I'm lost.

I responded to this post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JK17
Because he's the best player at the most important position, my vote goes to Urlacher, for mainly that reason only.
I only said that MLB is not the most important position in a Cover 2 defense.

That's it. That's all I said. I never said that MLB isn't important at all... but that it isn't the most important.

Then you asked me to back up my statement (which is quite obvious).

And, now, you say this:
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Originally Posted by draftgugu151
DE is the most important position in any defense.
Your posts are pointless.
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Old 06-09-2007, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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My point is, that is 4 people, 4 people create a pass rush, only one guy covers that middle, and it's the MLB.
Umm... if you want to think of it that way. I think of it like this: 4 (only 4) players try to create a pass-rush... but have 5 (or 6... and, sometimes 7) opposing players standing in their way. If the MLB has some speed and movement, he can drop back... and doesn't have someone preventing him from doing so.

Oh yeah... and, if those players don't create that pass-rush, the defense falls apart. But, if the MLB doesn't fall back, but the pass-rush has been made, the defense is fine.

But... that was your point... so... *shrugs*.
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Old 06-09-2007, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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So if it's like that then it would seem like the MLB is the least important position, might as well put a CB there is all you need is speed and movement. That's why the Lions would have taken Patrick Willis in the top 10 if they moved down.

If I had to take one position on defense it would be DE, but your acting like it's so much more of a need in a tampa 2, when it is pretty much the same as the MLB. If I could take a perfect fit at MLB (Urlacher) or a DE (Freeney) I would easily take the MLB. Since the DL is undersized in a tampa 2 for the pass rush, it means they aren't good against the run and then the MLB has be able to stop the run without much help from the guys in front of him. So he needs to be able to take on blockers and stop the run, as well as be able to get into that middle 3rd. My point is that the MLB position in the tampa 2 is as important as the DE, and you saying it's a fact there is no argument is just asinine.
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Old 06-09-2007, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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So if it's like that then it would seem like the MLB is the least important position, might as well put a CB there is all you need is speed and movement. That's why the Lions would have taken Patrick Willis in the top 10 if they moved down.

If I had to take one position on defense it would be DE, but your acting like it's so much more of a need in a tampa 2, when it is pretty much the same as the MLB. If I could take a perfect fit at MLB (Urlacher) or a DE (Freeney) I would easily take the MLB. Since the DL is undersized in a tampa 2 for the pass rush, it means they aren't good against the run and then the MLB has be able to stop the run without much help from the guys in front of him. So he needs to be able to take on blockers and stop the run, as well as be able to get into that middle 3rd. My point is that the MLB position in the tampa 2 is as important as the DE, and you saying it's a fact there is no argument is just asinine.
Them (the Lions) wanting to take Patrick Willis in the top 10 does NOT mean it's a more important position than DE (which is the argument, isn't it?). They picked up DWhite in FA (who Marinelli is big on) and have Kalimba Edwards (who Marinelli thinks can be a beast and a great pass-rusher). They also have Shaun Rogers and Cory Redding, so the DLine looks to be in great shape. Don't quite see the relevance of that comment... (and, by the way, there were other players they wanted if they moved down... not just Patrick Willis).

It's pointless to debate this with you (as we've seen in previous posts). MLB is an important position in any defense, but DE is more important than MLB in the Cover 2. If you need an explanation, read above.

And, I'll leave you with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by draftguru151
DE is the most important position in any defense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by draftguru151
My point is that the MLB position in the tampa 2 is as important as the DE
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Old 06-09-2007, 01:59 PM    (permalink
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Brian Dawkins is the best defensive player in the NFL.
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Old 06-09-2007, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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I went with Bailey because in my opinon there are not as many elite CBs as there are at other positions, and Bailey is clearly the best.
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Old 06-09-2007, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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Them (the Lions) wanting to take Patrick Willis in the top 10 does NOT mean it's a more important position than DE (which is the argument, isn't it?). They picked up DWhite in FA (who Marinelli is big on) and have Kalimba Edwards (who Marinelli thinks can be a beast and a great pass-rusher). They also have Shaun Rogers and Cory Redding, so the DLine looks to be in great shape. Don't quite see the relevance of that comment... (and, by the way, there were other players they wanted if they moved down... not just Patrick Willis).

It's pointless to debate this with you (as we've seen in previous posts). MLB is an important position in any defense, but DE is more important than MLB in the Cover 2. If you need an explanation, read above.

And, I'll leave you with this:
If they were willing to take Willis in the top 10 they obviously value the position. Kalimba Edwards? You'd figure if the position was that important they would want a monster at the position.

My point, once again, is that the MLB is just as important as the DE, and you acting like it isn't even close is ridiculous.
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Old 06-09-2007, 04:13 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draftguru151 View Post
If they were willing to take Willis in the top 10 they obviously value the position. Kalimba Edwards? You'd figure if the position was that important they would want a monster at the position.

My point, once again, is that the MLB is just as important as the DE, and you acting like it isn't even close is ridiculous.
You are hilarious. I'ma give you rep for that post, because you either a) have no clue what I said, or b) are very funny.

I NEVER said that the MLB position "isn't even close" to being as important as the DE position... I just said that DE is the most important position in the Cover 2. Sure, MLB is important... as every position is... but DE is the most important. Hell, you even said it yourself.

Kalimba Edwards has always had the talent to be a great pass-rusher, but has not performed in past years. In his second year in the defense, and under DLine guru Rod Marinelli (who is working closely with him this year), he should get closer to performing up to his potential. So, having Kalimba at the position doesn't make it any less important. Hey... guess what? They're looking to start Paris Lenon at MLB. Solid argument.

You keep saying that MLB is just as important as DE... but also have said that DE is the most important position. I'm not sure if I should take you seriously, but, for the last time, the pass-rush is the foundation of the Cover 2, and the pass-rush is created from the DLine. A MLBer with coverage skill can fit in the Cover 2, but the defense needs great pass-rushers to succeed.
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Last edited by TacticaLion : 06-09-2007 at 04:20 PM.
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