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Old 06-07-2007, 02:02 AM    (permalink
SenorGato
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Default Someone explain to me...

the genius logic that rings determines the greatest QBs?

Since when could a QB singlehandedly do anything?

And why are people always crediting W-L to a QB? What kind of genius logic is that? I wonder what the Tom Brady's and Peyton Manning's would look like with no O-lines, good coaching, and weapons around them? Those guys get no credit?

I love how some QB arguments get down to who has the better record...because QBs and QBs only decide games. Thats why Rex Grossman was the second best QB in the NFL last year, HE'S A SUPER BOWL QB!!11

I mean, Peyton Manning and Dan Marino are/were OBVIOUSLY HUGELY overrated because they didn't have RINGS!! I realize it's the goal and etc...but a QB that produces...alot is more likely to get you there no? No? Is this some crazy guy's brain overthinking the simple results oriented logic of football?

Anyway, I need someone to break this down to my obviously n00b mind.

*Edit* And I love how it usually depends on how well the QB produces, and just how much you like the guy/team. If it's a high producing QB on a really good team, he's got a really good team around him so he's overrated. If he's on a bad team or lacks a supporting cast (defense or something) that sucks...he OBVIOUSLY is overrated because he can't singlehandedly win anything. How does that even work?

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Old 06-07-2007, 02:42 AM    (permalink
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I don't really think anybody believes that winning a super bowl makes a great QB. Sure it helps, but if you actually think that what you are saying is common belief, then there is something wrong.
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Old 06-07-2007, 02:47 AM    (permalink
SenorGato
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Well I've seen it over and over.

How often do you hear "QB X is better than QB Y because his team won more games?" It seems like its far more common than you're letting on.
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Old 06-07-2007, 03:32 AM    (permalink
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Well I've seen it over and over.

How often do you hear "QB X is better than QB Y because his team won more games?" It seems like its far more common than you're letting on.
I don't really think that many people say that either. Nobody in their right mind thinks a guy like Grossman is better than the likes of McNabb, Palmer, Brees etc. Sure someone may occasionally make a comment like that, but it is generally refuted anyway.
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Old 06-07-2007, 06:16 AM    (permalink
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Well I've seen it over and over.

How often do you hear "QB X is better than QB Y because his team won more games?" It seems like its far more common than you're letting on.
Yeah, I'm not sure many people really believe that. This topic has come up before, and what was concluded I believe was that wins don't make a QB, however just as they get a lot of credit for the wins, they get a lot of blame for the loss, because of the increased responisbility of the position. Wins dont make or break them, but they carry a bigger burden for the QB, because he's a coach on the field, and usually a team captain.
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Old 06-07-2007, 07:13 AM    (permalink
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When a QB has mediocre year after year and the team has loosing season year after year, that QB most likely is not great despite what the homers and the QB's fangirls say.
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Old 06-07-2007, 08:12 AM    (permalink
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Rings have nothing to do with a player being good at all. It determines if he played for a good TEAM or not. Peyton Manning is the best QB to ever play the game (by a pretty good amount). Tom Brady isnt in his league.
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:10 AM    (permalink
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Rings have nothing to do with a player being good at all. It determines if he played for a good TEAM or not. Peyton Manning is the best QB to ever play the game (by a pretty good amount). Tom Brady isnt in his league.
Peyton Manning is the best QB to ever play the game?
Yeah, lets forget about Elway, Marino, Montana, Unitas...they weren't even "within a good amount" of Peyton Manning.
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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well.....Brian Cox was calling Manning overated because he never won a playoff game....and then when he won two in the same offseason against "bad defenses" he was till overrated....these cats who do the analysis...."Guy A has x super bowl rings, so he is better than Guy B".....that **** is moronic in my opinion.....and these came clowns i wouldpose the question....Trent Dilfer or Dan Marino?
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:46 AM    (permalink
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well.....Brian Cox was calling Manning overated because he never won a playoff game....and then when he won two in the same offseason against "bad defenses" he was till overrated....these cats who do the analysis...."Guy A has x super bowl rings, so he is better than Guy B".....that **** is moronic in my opinion.....and these came clowns i wouldpose the question....Trent Dilfer or Dan Marino?
Very few people (and by very few i mean very few) people have called Peyton Manning overrated because he never won a playoff game. No one has called him overrated after he won this postseason. Few people, and those who do are generally laughed at, say that "Player A" is better then "Player B" because he has more rings. Usually there is more to the argument or the guy has no credibility to begin with. The common defense of whose better Trent Dilfer or Dan Marino is old and weak. No one believes Dilfer is better then Marino and for that reason alone, no one actually judges players solely on their rings, or lack thereof.
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Old 06-07-2007, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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Peyton Manning is the best QB to ever play the game?
Yeah, lets forget about Elway, Marino, Montana, Unitas...they weren't even "within a good amount" of Peyton Manning.
Peyton already has more TD passes than your boy montana. In 9 seasons compared to 15.
Elway completed a lovely 56% of his passes... peyton 64. Peyton will pass him in TD's this year.
Mario's #'s are the only thing comparable and he will eventually be passed by Manning.
Johnny U? are you kidding me?
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Old 06-07-2007, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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let me know when peyton single handledly wills three teams to a super bowl they have absolutely no business playing in. let me know when peyton puts up stats similar to marino's with a similar supporting cast. marino's #'s will all be passed by manning? manning would need 6 consecutive 4,000 yard passing seasons to break marino's yardage mark. which puts him at throwing 4000 yards at 37. yeah.

it's utterly ridiculous that you think there's no argument. you've clearly either only been watching football for about 6 years, you play too much madden, or some combination thereof. but yeah. man, that completion percentage sure tells the whole story if you weren't old enough to ever actually, you know, watch elway play.
Manning makes his supporting cast great. Who the hell is Brandon Stockley anyhow? How did Edge hold up last year without Manning? It isnt an argument THE GREATEST EVER.

Elway cant hold Mannings Jock, he is nothing more than a joke 56%.... puh-leeze. McNabb puts up better #'s than Elway.
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Old 06-07-2007, 11:54 AM    (permalink
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for the longest time people said Brady was better than Manning because he has 2 rings.

Peyton won his ring now people are saying Brady has 3. Might not be on this board but I hear it all the time.

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Manning makes his supporting cast great. Who the hell is Brandon Stockley anyhow? How did Edge hold up last year without Manning? It isnt an argument THE GREATEST EVER.

Elway cant hold Mannings Jock, he is nothing more than a joke 56%.... puh-leeze. McNabb puts up better #'s than Elway.
Dude, Elway>McNabb and it's not even close.

That's just a ******** thing to say.

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Old 06-07-2007, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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but yeah, way to competently respond to all the arguments presented, then declare that there's no argument. you said it so it MUST be true.
Dude, he's the One, of course he's right... The oracle agrees.

Seriously though, I don't know what the hell that guy is talking about.
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Old 06-07-2007, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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Manning makes his supporting cast great. Who the hell is Brandon Stockley anyhow? How did Edge hold up last year without Manning? It isnt an argument THE GREATEST EVER.

Elway cant hold Mannings Jock, he is nothing more than a joke 56%.... puh-leeze. McNabb puts up better #'s than Elway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo View Post
Peyton already has more TD passes than your boy montana. In 9 seasons compared to 15.
Elway completed a lovely 56% of his passes... peyton 64. Peyton will pass him in TD's this year.
Mario's #'s are the only thing comparable and he will eventually be passed by Manning.
Johnny U? are you kidding me?
You aren't serious right? You actually think its a joke to compare Johnny Unitas to Peyton Manning? You think that Elway couldn't hold Manning's jock? I hate Elway more then maybe any player in history and even I can admit he's one of the best of all time. Normally I would argue about this with you but everyone else here already knows how ridiculous your joke of an argument is....I'm still laughing about it.

Oh yeah, and you might want to do more research or thinking than looking at career stats...its a bad way to go about things.
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Old 06-07-2007, 02:10 PM    (permalink
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Don't you guys know that a QB's stats are the only way of knowing who's the best? It's pretty much common knowledge. Vinny Testaverde barely edges out Drew Bledsoe as the 6th greatest quarterback in NFL history.
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Old 06-07-2007, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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A great QB needs the wins, championships, and stats. Johnny U had it all, plus, Manning 6'4, Unitas 6'1, Unitas not even good height for his day. Plus he was deemed to skinny too.

You cant base greatness purely on stats, or wins, or champs, but on it all
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Old 06-07-2007, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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Traditionally, it is the quarterback's job to be the leader of the team. And a leaders success is measured in how far he brings his team. If the best buy on Jefferson Street makes 130% of their sales quota the manager will get a bonus. A few teams have deviated from that formula, ie the Ravens with Trent Dilfer but more often than not the quarterback is the unquestioned leader of a successful team.
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Old 06-07-2007, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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You aren't serious right? You actually think its a joke to compare Johnny Unitas to Peyton Manning? You think that Elway couldn't hold Manning's jock? I hate Elway more then maybe any player in history and even I can admit he's one of the best of all time. Normally I would argue about this with you but everyone else here already knows how ridiculous your joke of an argument is....I'm still laughing about it.

Oh yeah, and you might want to do more research or thinking than looking at career stats...its a bad way to go about things.
I wonder what Mannings Stats would've been on those Elway Superbowl teams of the 80's.
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Old 06-07-2007, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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Traditionally, it is the quarterback's job to be the leader of the team. And a leaders success is measured in how far he brings his team. If the best buy on Jefferson Street makes 130% of their sales quota the manager will get a bonus. A few teams have deviated from that formula, ie the Ravens with Trent Dilfer but more often than not the quarterback is the unquestioned leader of a successful team.
yes, but you cant judge a QB purely on wins, good point though
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Old 06-07-2007, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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Manning makes his supporting cast great. Who the hell is Brandon Stockley anyhow? How did Edge hold up last year without Manning? It isnt an argument THE GREATEST EVER.

Elway cant hold Mannings Jock, he is nothing more than a joke 56%.... puh-leeze. McNabb puts up better #'s than Elway.
puh-leeze
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Old 06-07-2007, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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My favorite statistic: Bill Belichick failed out of Cleveland and was 5-13 in his tenure with New England before Tom Brady entered the starting lineup. The Patriots went on to win the Super Bowl that year and then two more with virtually the same lineup. Don't you think it might have been Brady that made the difference?
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Old 06-07-2007, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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Peyton Manning is playing in the golden age of Quarterback statistics. He is playing in a warm weather division, on an offensive centric team that focuses on bringing in talented weapons. (1st round picks on Tarik Glenn, Marvin Harrison, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Joseph Addai, Anthony Gonzalez, off the top of my head.) He's a great player, don't get me wrong, but of course he has great stats. His stats aren't even that much better than Marino, actually. Marino would be lighting up today's NFL.
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Old 06-07-2007, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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One word: succesful.

QB is the most important position in any sport. No single sport puts such significance into a QB. Sure, some sports have some really important positions too, but none is as important as the QB. Now, I am not saying that I concur with this idea, but the point they emphatise is the following:

Would you rather have Tom Brady and win 3 super bowls, or Peyton Manning an only win one? It is not a talent issue, or ability for that matter, rather how succesful the QB was throughout his career.
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Old 06-07-2007, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xonraider View Post
One word: succesful.

QB is the most important position in any sport. No single sport puts such significance into a QB. Sure, some sports have some really important positions too, but none is as important as the QB. Now, I am not saying that I concur with this idea, but the point they emphatise is the following:

Would you rather have Tom Brady and win 3 super bowls, or Peyton Manning an only win one? It is not a talent issue, or ability for that matter, rather how succesful the QB was throughout his career.
so would you take Trent Dilfer over Randall Cunningham?
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