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Old 06-07-2007, 07:32 PM    (permalink
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so would you take Trent Dilfer over Randall Cunningham?
But Trent was never a guy who would grab the team by its balls, and throw everyone upon his shoulders. That is what you look for in a quarterback.
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Old 06-07-2007, 07:36 PM    (permalink
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But Trent was never a guy who would grab the team by its balls, and throw everyone upon his shoulders. That is what you look for in a quarterback.
"I've never seen a man lifted by his testicles before."
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Old 06-07-2007, 07:38 PM    (permalink
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"I've never seen a man lifted by his testicles before."
I would hope you would not want to.
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Old 06-07-2007, 08:34 PM    (permalink
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When people say Joe Montana is the Greatest quarterback of all time, it is because of what he did in theBIG situations.

Anyone remember the 1981 NFC Championship Game. Joe Montana to Dwight Clark (AKA the Catch).

1989 Superbowl Joe Montana pass to John Taylor

http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00016306.html

"Take the 1989 Super Bowl against the Cincinnati Bengals. The San Francisco 49ers were down by three points with 3:20 left when Montana spotted -- no, not an open receiver -- but a personality. "There, in the stands, standing near the exit ramp," Montana said to tackle Harris Barton. "Isn't that John Candy?" And then he led the 49ers 92 yards, throwing for the winning touchdown with 34 seconds left."


Also I think this quote by Randy Cross fits this topic perfectly

"There have been, and will be, much better arms and legs and much better bodies on quarterbacks in the NFL," said former 49er teammate Randy Cross, "but if you have to win a game or score a touchdown or win a championship, the only guy to get is Joe Montana."

In a quarterback do you want the guy with the biggest arm, fastest legs or the quarterback who always comes up big, in the big situations
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Old 06-07-2007, 09:08 PM    (permalink
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so would you take Trent Dilfer over Randall Cunningham?
Did you read the whole post?
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Old 06-07-2007, 09:25 PM    (permalink
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Never, but QBs singlehandedly make the team do something.
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:58 PM    (permalink
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But Trent was never a guy who would grab the team by its balls, and throw everyone upon his shoulders. That is what you look for in a quarterback.
Im not argueing against that, I was saying that since Trent won a SB, and Cunningham never even made it, would you rather have the SB winner or Cunningham

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Did you read the whole post?
yea it wasnt that long
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Old 06-07-2007, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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1. Im not argueing against that, I was saying that since Trent won a SB, and Cunningham never even made it, would you rather have the SB winner or Cunningham



2. yea it wasnt that long
1. Would I rather have an average QB and win a super bowl or a very good one and not win one? I'll take the average one...

2. Then you would know I said I didn't necesarily concur to the point people look for.
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Old 06-07-2007, 11:17 PM    (permalink
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To me, John Elway is the best quarterback to have yet played the game, barely edging out Joe Montana.

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well.....Brian Cox was calling Manning overated because he never won a playoff game....and then when he won two in the same offseason against "bad defenses" he was till overrated....
Those two games were beautiful ... *sniff*

I'm pretty sure Hunter the Punter never saw the field for two weeks straight.
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Old 06-07-2007, 11:20 PM    (permalink
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Peyton Manning is playing in the golden age of Quarterback statistics. He is playing in a warm weather division, on an offensive centric team that focuses on bringing in talented weapons. (1st round picks on Tarik Glenn, Marvin Harrison, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Joseph Addai, Anthony Gonzalez, off the top of my head.) He's a great player, don't get me wrong, but of course he has great stats. His stats aren't even that much better than Marino, actually. Marino would be lighting up today's NFL.
Revisionist history eliminates the Colts from the AFC East? When it was the best division in football? That's a shame.

Also, one could probably add coaching (consistency) in favor of Manning depending on how they feel about offensive coordinator Tom Moore, offensive line coach Howard Mudd, runningbacks coach Gene Huey, and (since 2002) quarterbacks coach/assistant head coach Jim Caldwell among others.

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Old 06-08-2007, 12:35 AM    (permalink
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I'm not excluding his AFC East seasons, at all.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:10 AM    (permalink
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My favorite statistic: Bill Belichick failed out of Cleveland and was 5-13 in his tenure with New England before Tom Brady entered the starting lineup. The Patriots went on to win the Super Bowl that year and then two more with virtually the same lineup. Don't you think it might have been Brady that made the difference?
You know, many choose to think that because it's well...its pretty friggin convenient right? All the success came after Brady came in no?

But...Brady is protected by an O-line and has to throw to guys who catch the ball. Brady also hands it off this "running back" creature.

Theres no denying that Brady is a great QB, but theres no denying that BB is a HOF coach too. Not only that, but he's a HOF coach who surrounded himself with great, HC quality coordinators.

I mean, NO QB ever has done it all by himself. Elway spent most of his career with a defense that was always good and STILL underrated, and didn't win it all until he had a legit running game behind him (not to mention Shanahan's kickass coaching). Montana is the prototype for a WCO QB, and he was surrounded by scary talent all around (O, D, coaching). Manning's Colts realized he was the franchise, gave him weapons and an O-line and hoped for the best with the D.

Anyway, the way I look at QBs is "who would I take first" and heres my list:

1. Marino
2. Manning
3. Montana
4. Elway

IMO, Manning and Marino are two of the best pure passers the game has ever and will ever see. They fit any system, any team, at any point in history. Elway is the same way, but he was never as accurate as them and a bit more INT prone.

Favre never seems to get any credit in these QB discussions when I think about it...IMO he's very similar, if not BETTER than Elway.

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Old 06-08-2007, 04:23 AM    (permalink
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You know, many choose to think that because it's well...its pretty friggin convenient right? All the success came after Brady came in no?

But...Brady is protected by an O-line and has to throw to guys who catch the ball. Brady also hands it off this "running back" creature.

Theres no denying that Brady is a great QB, but theres no denying that BB is a HOF coach too. Not only that, but he's a HOF coach who surrounded himself with great, HC quality coordinators.

I mean, NO QB ever has done it all by himself. Elway spent most of his career with a defense that was always good and STILL underrated, and didn't win it all until he had a legit running game behind him (not to mention Shanahan's kickass coaching). Montana is the prototype for a WCO QB, and he was surrounded by scary talent all around (O, D, coaching). Manning's Colts realized he was the franchise, gave him weapons and an O-line and hoped for the best with the D.

Anyway, the way I look at QBs is "who would I take first" and heres my list:

1. Marino
2. Manning
3. Montana
4. Elway

IMO, Manning and Marino are two of the best pure passers the game has ever and will ever see. They fit any system, any team, at any point in history. Elway is the same way, but he was never as accurate as them and a bit more INT prone.

Favre never seems to get any credit in these QB discussions when I think about it...IMO he's very similar, if not BETTER than Elway.
Manning was also god awful for most of the playoffs this year. His Defense in the playoffs was so well coached and always in the right position. Manning did do what he needed to do when they needed a score. So, I will give him a pass. :P
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Old 06-08-2007, 05:04 AM    (permalink
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My favorite statistic: Bill Belichick failed out of Cleveland and was 5-13 in his tenure with New England before Tom Brady entered the starting lineup. The Patriots went on to win the Super Bowl that year and then two more with virtually the same lineup. Don't you think it might have been Brady that made the difference?
Yeah, it was all Brady. It wasn't that defense that went from near bottom of the barrel to elite in the course of a season and pretty much carried them in the Super Bowl that year. Nope, all Brady. Just like in 03 (Pats had the top ranked defense in the NFL) and 04 (Pats had the 2nd ranked defense in the NFL), it was Brady, not the amazing defenses/schemes Belichick and Crennel concocted, that got the Pats to the pinnacle.
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Old 06-08-2007, 06:13 AM    (permalink
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Manning makes his supporting cast great. Who the hell is Brandon Stockley anyhow? How did Edge hold up last year without Manning? It isnt an argument THE GREATEST EVER.

Elway cant hold Mannings Jock, he is nothing more than a joke 56%.... puh-leeze. McNabb puts up better #'s than Elway.
By the way, who the hell is Jabar Gaffney? Reche Caldwell? Since when is Troy Brown Marvin Harrison? The Elway statement may have been one of the dumbest I have ever seen.

Dam8610, I love how when someone mentions the NE success people like you always credit Belichick and Crennel, but when the Colts win, well Peyton did this, Peyton did that. Very fair both ways I see.

Bottom line, I base a QB on if a playoff game is tied, 2 minutes to go, 80 yards away, who do I want as my QB? Not one of you can legitimately say you'd rather have Manning over Brady in that case. Don't even attempt it. Throw out 6 touchdown games in 42-7 wins, I don't care about this. If I want a fantasy football title, give me Peyton. If I want a ring, give me Brady
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Old 06-08-2007, 11:01 AM    (permalink
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you can't compare stats from different eras. In The mid 70's (when I can say I began watching) and 80's passing was far different. 50% was the guage and rarely did anyone top 60% . the aim was the quick strike, the big hit. The yards per catch was much higher too. You would not see a wr averaging 9.9 or 10.4 yrds and stay on the field. I remember the Pats having Morgan and Harrold Jackson both at over 20 yrds per catch or close to it all the time.

Today's dink and dunk inflates those numbers of the modern Qb. So stop using stats to say Manning is better than Elway, that is a very naive arguement
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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Rings have nothing to do with a player being good at all. It determines if he played for a good TEAM or not. Peyton Manning is the best QB to ever play the game(by a pretty good amount). Tom Brady isnt in his league.
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Old 06-08-2007, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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Joe Montana and John Elway... are you people kidding me. Again Peyton is the greatest QB to ever play the game without playing a superbowl. Superbowls have nothing absolutely nothing to do with individual talent. It has to do with being on a good team... Joesph Addie is better than Barry Sanders with that logic. Its silly and you all know it. Peyton grew up to be the perfect QB and that is what he has become. He is absolutely scary at the line of scrimmage. He is the Robo QB that worked.

Again... Does Peyton not have more TD passes than your boy joe? absolutely and only after 9 seasons...
McNabb's first 8 seasons are by far superior to Elways.
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Old 06-08-2007, 01:12 PM    (permalink
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you can't compare stats from different eras. In The mid 70's (when I can say I began watching) and 80's passing was far different. 50% was the guage and rarely did anyone top 60% . the aim was the quick strike, the big hit. The yards per catch was much higher too. You would not see a wr averaging 9.9 or 10.4 yrds and stay on the field. I remember the Pats having Morgan and Harrold Jackson both at over 20 yrds per catch or close to it all the time.

Today's dink and dunk inflates those numbers of the modern Qb. So stop using stats to say Manning is better than Elway, that is a very naive arguement
Interesting Argument but it just doenst hold up... realistically Manning averages more per attempt by over a half of a yard. Elway was also under 60% 3 of his last 4 years in the league... hardly a different era. Elway never threw for over 30 TD's. Essentially you are a jokeing if you think Elway is in Mannings league...
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Old 06-08-2007, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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your only bloody argument is stats. have you watched anyone BUT manning play? has ANYONE used super bowls alone? this is the most poorly constructed argument i've seen in months on this board.

i'm done. i'd frankly rather argue about vick and eli at the same time in a small enclosed space with eacantdraft than listen to you repeat yourself over and over about quarterbacks you never saw play.
Yes i have watched manning play he is ridiculous.... Elway... he was good... McNabb like at best (i am giving him some credit even though his #'s dont hold a flame to McNabb and in 8 seasons McNabb has also won a ton of games without winning a superbowl the same as Elway)

McNabb's First 8 > Elway's first 8. FACT
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Old 06-08-2007, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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Joe Montana and John Elway... are you people kidding me. Again Peyton is the greatest QB to ever play the game without playing a superbowl. Superbowls have nothing absolutely nothing to do with individual talent. It has to do with being on a good team... Joesph Addie is better than Barry Sanders with that logic. Its silly and you all know it. Peyton grew up to be the perfect QB and that is what he has become. He is absolutely scary at the line of scrimmage. He is the Robo QB that worked.


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Again... Does Peyton not have more TD passes than your boy joe? absolutely and only after 9 seasons...
McNabb's first 8 seasons are by far superior to Elways.
Elway also ended his career with 2 SB wins.

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Essentially you are a jokeing if you think Elway is in Mannings league...
Elway HOF, Manning not.

Manning will get there. Until he does Manning is not in Elways league.
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Old 06-08-2007, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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Elway also ended his career with 2 SB wins.



Elway HOF, Manning not.

Manning will get there. Until he does Manning is not in Elways league.
If Manning walked out today he wuold be in the hall of fame. The real question isnt if Manning is better than Elway.. he is thats a fact. The question is Donovan McNabb on pace to be better than Elway. He is Thats a fact.

Also Terrell Davis won 2 superbowls. Elway Who?
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Old 06-08-2007, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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Joe Montana and John Elway... are you people kidding me. Again Peyton is the greatest QB to ever play the game without playing a superbowl. Superbowls have nothing absolutely nothing to do with individual talent. It has to do with being on a good team... Joesph Addie is better than Barry Sanders with that logic. Its silly and you all know it. Peyton grew up to be the perfect QB and that is what he has become. He is absolutely scary at the line of scrimmage. He is the Robo QB that worked.

Again... Does Peyton not have more TD passes than your boy joe? absolutely and only after 9 seasons...
McNabb's first 8 seasons are by far superior to Elways.
I'm sorry to all the mods but that's the nicest way I can put the following. Shut the **** up. You don't know **** about football. It's people like you that **** up the game for the rest of us who actually understand history and different eras. Not only that, but you're so damn stupid you said "Peyton is the greatest QB ever to play the game without playing a superbowl." He just won Super Bowl MVP five months ago you idiot. Get the **** out and never come back.
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Old 06-08-2007, 01:23 PM    (permalink
Neo
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Neo needs more cowbell.
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I'm sorry to all the mods but that's the nicest way I can put the following. Shut the **** up. You don't know **** about football. It's people like you that **** up the game for the rest of us who actually understand history and different eras. Not only that, but you're so damn stupid you said "Peyton is the greatest QB ever to play the game without playing a superbowl." He just won Super Bowl MVP five months ago you idiot. Get the **** out and never come back.
You should be banned for this... you are just being a little bit silly i am pretty sure i have demonstrated a superiour football knowledge. I am sorry you have a man crush on elway but regardless of a superbowl or not Manning is better. TEAMS win superbowls... not individual players. Drew Bledsoe won a superbowl does anybody care? No. I understand Elway played back in the day, but that does not excuse him for being awful at throwing the football. I am aware Peyton won the superbowl but that is meaningless on his resume of greatness. Watch the man play he is ridiculuos, unlike that sloppy McNabb wannabe Elway. (McNabb is superior at just about every level through 8 years FACT) Get over your man Crush Peyton is the greatest to ever Play. Opps i forgot Kevin Faulk is a better RB than Barry Sanders right? PUH-LEEEZE

Being on a good team doesnt make you a good player
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Old 06-08-2007, 01:24 PM    (permalink
SubNoize
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SubNoize is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SubNoize is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SubNoize is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SubNoize is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SubNoize is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SubNoize is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SubNoize is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SubNoize is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SubNoize is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SubNoize is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SubNoize is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
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Yes i have watched manning play he is ridiculous.... Elway... he was good... McNabb like at best (i am giving him some credit even though his #'s dont hold a flame to McNabb and in 8 seasons McNabb has also won a ton of games without winning a superbowl the same as Elway)

McNabb's First 8 > Elway's first 8. FACT
Wow, you are a misinformed, confused individual. I have never seen such disgusting fangirl garbage spewed in my entire life. You do realize that the modern era of football is so pansy when it comes to contact that it pretty much allows for passing stats to be grossly inflated for "entertainment." Marino, Elway and Montana played in a time where the defender could maul a receiver and it was just part of the game, and inspite that were still able to put up solid stats and win big games. When Manning can lead his team in the clutch as well as Elway or Montana you call me, because frankly he's still a choker in big situations. Manning has been consitently bad when the games have mattered, you know the ones in Jan. One Super Bowl victory that was lead mostly by defense and a solid run game isn't going to dispell critics'. Addai better than Barry??? Are you joking? Please tell me you are beacuse if you're not that you should never be able to speak about football ever again...
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