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View Poll Results: screwed?
Ramsey 16 12.40%
Carr 94 72.87%
Harrington 19 14.73%
Voters: 129. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-09-2007, 06:33 PM    (permalink
TheChampIsHere
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It's true, just misleading. He did have "first round weapons", they just sucked.

I really don't think any of the 3 were put in position to do well, but I think Ramsey was the most screwed. Spurrier really messed him up.
but you would have to say that part of them not being put in a position to do well was that they were put in an offense where Joey Harrington was the QB
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Old 06-09-2007, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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I voted Carr, but I gotta say I dont think harrington should be on here. In his time in Detroit, he had plenty of talent around him and sure a lot of those guys turned out to be busts but the fact that Harrington was leading the offense had a lot to do with them becoming busts. A lot of the guys Brady works with seem like nobodies but they have a great QB leading their offense and they play better because of it. Carr was drafted onto an expansion team with no talent and poor coaching and no team chemistry and he never had a chance.
That's amazing.

How did Harrington have any more talent around him than Carr did?! I think people look at the draft picks and think "Hey, he should've succeeded", but half of those picks didn't pan out (and one of the ones that did has been bothered by injuries). The one that did (Roy) isn't as good as Carr's WR option (Johnson).

And, no, Harrington leading the offense had nothing to do with them becoming busts. Harrington didn't make Mike Williams lazy and Harrington didn't injure Charles Rogers (and didn't force him to smoke weed).

Those are very weak statements.
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Old 06-09-2007, 10:53 PM    (permalink
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That's amazing.

How did Harrington have any more talent around him than Carr did?! I think people look at the draft picks and think "Hey, he should've succeeded", but half of those picks didn't pan out (and one of the ones that did has been bothered by injuries). The one that did (Roy) isn't as good as Carr's WR option (Johnson).

And, no, Harrington leading the offense had nothing to do with them becoming busts. Harrington didn't make Mike Williams lazy and Harrington didn't injure Charles Rogers (and didn't force him to smoke weed).

Those are very weak statements.
Carr had one of the worst OL ever assembled, yes he had Andre but thats 1 player. Harrington had high-priced and highly drafted OL blocking for him, talent at HB, WR, TE. The fact that the offense never panned out has a lot to do with Harrington.
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Old 06-09-2007, 11:25 PM    (permalink
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Carr is the only one out of the three that could be a starter for the future.
I totally agree
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Old 06-10-2007, 12:46 AM    (permalink
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I would have like to see the results if Harrington and Carr had swapped draft spots. Or do we just give the benefit of the doubt to the guy that got drafted by an expansion team?
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Old 06-10-2007, 01:02 AM    (permalink
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I would have like to see the results if Harrington and Carr had swapped draft spots. Or do we just give the benefit of the doubt to the guy that got drafted by an expansion team?
well Carr may have actually done well in Detroit, he would have actually have a O-Line that was trying to block
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Old 06-10-2007, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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Carr had one of the worst OL ever assembled, yes he had Andre but thats 1 player. Harrington had high-priced and highly drafted OL blocking for him, talent at HB, WR, TE. The fact that the offense never panned out has a lot to do with Harrington.
I'm shocked.

Detroit's OLine was horrible... "high-priced and highly paid" doesn't equal success. They had 1 talented player at WR, and that was Roy Williams (I don't consider Tai Streets and Az-Zahir Hakim "talented"). Talent at TE? Who?! Stephen Alexander!? You've gotta be kidding me. Kevin Jones had a solid rookie year, but had minor injuries in his next year and struggled.

The fact that the offense never panned out has a lot to do with the horrible OLine... more so than Harrington.
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Old 06-10-2007, 12:35 PM    (permalink
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well Carr may have actually done well in Detroit, he would have actually have a O-Line that was trying to block
Why is there this misconception that Detroit had a decent OLine?! They didn't. It was horrible.
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Old 06-10-2007, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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Carr had no protection... one reciever.. a injury prone runningback and no defense... although it could have been a lot worse... he could have been drafted by the lions
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Old 06-10-2007, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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I'm shocked.

Detroit's OLine was horrible... "high-priced and highly paid" doesn't equal success. They had 1 talented player at WR, and that was Roy Williams (I don't consider Tai Streets and Az-Zahir Hakim "talented"). Talent at TE? Who?! Stephen Alexander!? You've gotta be kidding me. Kevin Jones had a solid rookie year, but had minor injuries in his next year and struggled.

The fact that the offense never panned out has a lot to do with the horrible OLine... more so than Harrington.
A good QB makes his OL better. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady do not really have great OLs but they are smart QBs who keep defenses off balance, have great footwork and pocket composure and know when to get rid of the ball. This makes their OL look a lot better than they really are. You reverse that and put in a QB with poor composure who holds the ball too long and is a poor QB and in general and he is gonna make that line look a lot worse. So yes, you can have a talented OL but if you have a poor QB in there, you're not gonna put those lineman in a good position to succeed and make the most of their talent. Damien Woody was a pro bowler on the Pats and he comes to Detroit and stinks it up. I dont understand why youre trying to blame everyone but Harrington. He was a ****** QB and he made everyone around him worse, thats what bad QBs do, similar to how good QBs like Brady and Manning make everyone around them better.

Harrington didnt jump into an ideal situation, but if he was indeed a good QB he had enough talent around him to succeed. Roy Williams is pro-bowl caliber, Rogers was talented (altho he was hurt most the time), Marcus Pollard was a proven producer before he came to the Lions, an OL full of first rounders and players like Woody and Demulling who played excellent for their former teams, a first round back in Kevin Jones...If Harrington was a good QB he would have utilized the weapons around him better and these players would have played to their full potential, because thats what happens to good QBs, players around them play well. Its no coincidence that every player on that Lion offense turned into a bust. Its not all to blame on Harrington b/c the coaches and the individual players carry plenty of the burden, but so does Harrington.....

But back to the subject of the post, we're talking about players that didnt have a chance. Carr, like I said, was put on an expansion team that was just awful overall, had one of the worst OL ever assembled, didnt have much offensive weapons to speka of outside of Andre Johnson, last year when the team had a chance to add a playmaker to the offense in Reggie Bush, they didnt do it. The team refused to spend high picks or sign a big money FA at OL, and specifically at LT. Carr wasn't given a fair chance. You look at the Lions, they made every effort to surround Harrington with talent, give him good blockers, give him playmakers to work with. I'll tell you what, I really doubt Mike Furrey gets 100 receptions last year if Harrington is still the QB on that offense. Patrick Ramsey, the other guy in the poll, actually did have some decent talent around him, but Spurrier just used him so stupidly that he never had a chance. Few QBs have ever been subject to such horrible coaching.

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Old 06-10-2007, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Patrick Ramsey, the other guy in the poll, actually did have some decent talent around him, but Spurrier just used him so stupidly that he never had a chance. Few QBs have ever been subject to such horrible coaching.
People overlook the poor guy
Spurrier really ruined his career trying to turn him into a more mobile guy.
If he wanted a mobile QB then why didnt he draft Josh McCown or David Garrard
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Old 06-11-2007, 11:22 AM    (permalink
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I voted Carr, but I gotta say I dont think harrington should be on here. In his time in Detroit, he had plenty of talent around him and sure a lot of those guys turned out to be busts but the fact that Harrington was leading the offense had a lot to do with them becoming busts. A lot of the guys Brady works with seem like nobodies but they have a great QB leading their offense and they play better because of it. Carr was drafted onto an expansion team with no talent and poor coaching and no team chemistry and he never had a chance.

actuallt...you say he had talent around them and then called them busts?...doesn't make sense....and in fact your wrong....the "talent" you speak of is Charles Rogers & Mike Williams....Charles Rogers had two consecutive collarbone injuries,,,,a drug suspension and the work ethic of a hibernating bear...Mike Williams could never get in shape and thought he was entitled to a roster spot...and his offiensive line was trash...what "talent" do you speak of?
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Old 06-11-2007, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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A good QB makes his OL better. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady do not really have great OLs but they are smart QBs who keep defenses off balance, have great footwork and pocket composure and know when to get rid of the ball. This makes their OL look a lot better than they really are. You reverse that and put in a QB with poor composure who holds the ball too long and is a poor QB and in general and he is gonna make that line look a lot worse. So yes, you can have a talented OL but if you have a poor QB in there, you're not gonna put those lineman in a good position to succeed and make the most of their talent. Damien Woody was a pro bowler on the Pats and he comes to Detroit and stinks it up. I dont understand why youre trying to blame everyone but Harrington. He was a ****** QB and he made everyone around him worse, thats what bad QBs do, similar to how good QBs like Brady and Manning make everyone around them better.

Harrington didnt jump into an ideal situation, but if he was indeed a good QB he had enough talent around him to succeed. Roy Williams is pro-bowl caliber, Rogers was talented (altho he was hurt most the time), Marcus Pollard was a proven producer before he came to the Lions, an OL full of first rounders and players like Woody and Demulling who played excellent for their former teams, a first round back in Kevin Jones...If Harrington was a good QB he would have utilized the weapons around him better and these players would have played to their full potential, because thats what happens to good QBs, players around them play well. Its no coincidence that every player on that Lion offense turned into a bust. Its not all to blame on Harrington b/c the coaches and the individual players carry plenty of the burden, but so does Harrington.....

But back to the subject of the post, we're talking about players that didnt have a chance. Carr, like I said, was put on an expansion team that was just awful overall, had one of the worst OL ever assembled, didnt have much offensive weapons to speka of outside of Andre Johnson, last year when the team had a chance to add a playmaker to the offense in Reggie Bush, they didnt do it. The team refused to spend high picks or sign a big money FA at OL, and specifically at LT. Carr wasn't given a fair chance. You look at the Lions, they made every effort to surround Harrington with talent, give him good blockers, give him playmakers to work with. I'll tell you what, I really doubt Mike Furrey gets 100 receptions last year if Harrington is still the QB on that offense. Patrick Ramsey, the other guy in the poll, actually did have some decent talent around him, but Spurrier just used him so stupidly that he never had a chance. Few QBs have ever been subject to such horrible coaching.
This posted is just jumbled up bullsh!t......first of all Damien Woody has been overweight since he has gotten to Detroit....and with the new staff he has been given an ultimatem....lose weight and restructure your contract or get the hell out of town......Joey Harrington wasn't on the team last year......and the QB was okay.....so what is your excuse for Woody's horrible play last year when he wasn't injured?...

your second paragraph...is beyond laughable....first you bring up Charles Rogers,,,,does it have to be written in crayon?.....HE SUFFERED TWO CONSECUTIVE SEASON ENDING INJURIES!!!....HE WASN'T ON THE FIELD!!!.....WHEN HE CAME BACK...HE WAS SUSPENDED FOR DRUGS!!!....AND THEN THE COACHING STAFF BURIED HIM ON THE BENCH!!!...The Woody situation I already adressed....Matt Millen came out and said Demulling was a mistake...no matter what you say or what your irrational logic may be....Demulling was terrible in run blocking as well as pass blocking....Harrington wasn't sacked as nearly as many times as he should have due to his quick release....Kevin Jones...had one good season....ONE....only one because he can't stay on the field due to injuries....How could Harrinton utilize him if he isn't on the field?...explain that too me.....and as far as givein every oppurtunity...well...lets see....Az Zahir Hakim?...no longer in the league....Tai Streets?...no longer in the league....Bill Schroeder?....no longer in the league...Charles Rogers?....no longer in the league....and as far as the offensive line....it was horrible....he had the worst offensive line behind Carr....it is obvious you are getting your information from those NFL Live clowns who talk out of theie ass.....

"TheChampIsHere, what you've just wrote is one of the most insanely idiotic, uninformed things that I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be a rational though concerning Joseph Harrington's stay with the Lions. Everyone here is now dumber for having reading it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

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Old 06-11-2007, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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OK mr. Mad Lion settle down. Did you even read my post? Cuz you have really missed the point, even though I do love the Billy Madison reference lol. You can sit there and put all the personal blame on each and every player who "busted" around Harrington and the Lions or you can look at it like the Lions were a place where talented players came to rot during the Harrington years. And who is the most important and influential player on a team, the QB of course. When you are a receiver, if you dont have trust in your QB, it affects your level of play, it affects your work ethic. If you are a blocker and you dont trust your QB and feel like even if you do block well, hes gonna get it done, it affects your level of play, it affects your work ethic. So yes when I look at Damien Woody, Rick Demulling, Mike Williams, Charles Rogers, Marcus Pollard, among others, who were major dissapointments, I do have to point to Harrington...Because like I said, Demulling and Woody played great when they were blocking for great QBs. But then when they come to the Lions, they lose their work ethic, they become less effective players. Am I saying Harrington should shoulder all the blame? Of course not, because each player has to take personal responsibility for not playing up to their potential and coaches and management deserve blame too. But to just go and clear Harrington, who was supposed to be the franchise QB of the team, of all blame is ridiculous, because as the franchise QB, you are the face of the franchise and the leader of the team and you are largely responsible for everyone around you. You look at any good franchise QB and its clear they make everyone around them better. Or on defense, you look at a franchise player like Ray Lewis, he makes everyone around him better, thats what franchise players do, they take the talent they are surrounded with, and they lead everyone to work hard, play hard, become a cohesive unit. The fact that so many guys on Harringtons offense lacked work ethic and that the team had poor chemistry and seemingly everyone had the worst years of their careers says something about Harrington.
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Old 06-11-2007, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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OK mr. Mad Lion settle down. Did you even read my post? Cuz you have really missed the point, even though I do love the Billy Madison reference lol. You can sit there and put all the personal blame on each and every player who "busted" around Harrington and the Lions or you can look at it like the Lions were a place where talented players came to rot during the Harrington years. And who is the most important and influential player on a team, the QB of course. When you are a receiver, if you dont have trust in your QB, it affects your level of play, it affects your work ethic. If you are a blocker and you dont trust your QB and feel like even if you do block well, hes gonna get it done, it affects your level of play, it affects your work ethic. So yes when I look at Damien Woody, Rick Demulling, Mike Williams, Charles Rogers, Marcus Pollard, among others, who were major dissapointments, I do have to point to Harrington...Because like I said, Demulling and Woody played great when they were blocking for great QBs. But then when they come to the Lions, they lose their work ethic, they become less effective players. Am I saying Harrington should shoulder all the blame? Of course not, because each player has to take personal responsibility for not playing up to their potential and coaches and management deserve blame too. But to just go and clear Harrington, who was supposed to be the franchise QB of the team, of all blame is ridiculous, because as the franchise QB, you are the face of the franchise and the leader of the team and you are largely responsible for everyone around you. You look at any good franchise QB and its clear they make everyone around them better. Or on defense, you look at a franchise player like Ray Lewis, he makes everyone around him better, thats what franchise players do, they take the talent they are surrounded with, and they lead everyone to work hard, play hard, become a cohesive unit. The fact that so many guys on Harringtons offense lacked work ethic and that the team had poor chemistry and seemingly everyone had the worst years of their careers says something about Harrington.
actually.....Harrington showed promise his rookie season...in fact he looked good...he looked confident and wouldn't hesitate to go down field....it wasn't until Marriucci came in and turned him into checkdown charlie....and his scheme was awful...I'm sorry....dare I say...Harrington was better off with Morninweg....I'm not exonerating Harrington at all....but he had no talent here for the majority of his career....and mooch sucked as a head coach in every facet except for maybe press conference....he can be a wonderful politician...
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Old 06-11-2007, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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actually.....Harrington showed promise his rookie season...in fact he looked good...he looked confident and wouldn't hesitate to go down field....it wasn't until Marriucci came in and turned him into checkdown charlie....and his scheme was awful...I'm sorry....dare I say...Harrington was better off with Morninweg....I'm not exonerating Harrington at all....but he had no talent here for the majority of his career....and mooch sucked as a head coach in every facet except for maybe press conference....he can be a wonderful politician...
He did look good that rookie year. He just never got better. Kinda like Rick Mirer
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Old 06-11-2007, 03:58 PM    (permalink
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actually.....Harrington showed promise his rookie season...in fact he looked good...he looked confident and wouldn't hesitate to go down field....it wasn't until Marriucci came in and turned him into checkdown charlie....and his scheme was awful...I'm sorry....dare I say...Harrington was better off with Morninweg....I'm not exonerating Harrington at all....but he had no talent here for the majority of his career....and mooch sucked as a head coach in every facet except for maybe press conference....he can be a wonderful politician...
Well i agree Mooch was an awful coach. Arguing who was better b/w him and Morningweg is ridiculous b/c neither should be HCs. I didnt like Mooch when he was on the niners and I didnt like him in Detroit. But to say Harrington had no talent around him is ridiculous. Rather, he was surrounded by talented players who never played to their potential.
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Old 06-11-2007, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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Ramsey and Harrington would suck on a good offense like Indy or KC even. Carr would've been okay if he had a good line.
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Old 06-11-2007, 04:20 PM    (permalink
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I vote Ramsey because both Harrington and Carr were given alot more games to produce solid passing attacks. Washington had the most talent offensively around him, but he just wasn't given as much time to grow as the others were.
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Old 06-11-2007, 04:21 PM    (permalink
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Well i agree Mooch was an awful coach. Arguing who was better b/w him and Morningweg is ridiculous b/c neither should be HCs. I didnt like Mooch when he was on the niners and I didnt like him in Detroit. But to say Harrington had no talent around him is ridiculous. Rather, he was surrounded by talented players who never played to their potential.

What receiver, lineman and RB would you have picked up off this team based on performance?


and no receiver has left the Lions and went on to achieve thier "potential"....
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Old 06-11-2007, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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and no receiver has left the Lions and went on to achieve thier "potential"....
no they havnt becase theyre careers have pretty much been dug into a terrible whole by they're habbits that they are done in the nfl
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Old 06-11-2007, 07:14 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadLionsFan View Post
What receiver, lineman and RB would you have picked up off this team based on performance?


and no receiver has left the Lions and went on to achieve thier "potential"....
Roy Williams, Pollard, KJ was solid before the injuries.
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Old 06-11-2007, 07:21 PM    (permalink
brat316
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I think Ramsey more screwed he isnt even a viable backup, atleast Carr, and Harrington can come in as back ups and compete win some loss some games.

But Ramsey i dont think he can even be a backup, Hopefully Cutler wont go down any time soon.
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Old 06-11-2007, 09:44 PM    (permalink
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Ramsey started 24 games, he got a real chance
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Old 06-11-2007, 10:56 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadLionsFan View Post
What receiver, lineman and RB would you have picked up off this team based on performance?


and no receiver has left the Lions and went on to achieve thier "potential"....
well their production wasnt too good, but there was plenty of talent on this team. Maybe the fact that they never panned out had a lot to do with that they're playing for the Lions with Harrington as their QB.

Regardless, Roy Williams, Charles Rogers, Mike Williams, Kevin Jones, Marcus Pollard, Damien Woody, Jeff Backus, Rick DeMulling, Stockar McDougle...That right there is a group full of talented players, first round picks, and players who had success elsewhere. Maybe their struggles in Detroit had something to do with Harrington. Or maybe Im just crazy.
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