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View Poll Results: Testing Neo's Theory
Peyton Manning 24 15.29%
Joe Montana 63 40.13%
John Elway 51 32.48%
Johnny U 19 12.10%
Voters: 157. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-10-2007, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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Okay, wow. You're wrong right now and your arrogance is mind-blwing.

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Originally Posted by Severe Punishment View Post
First off, you have no idea what kind of mental state I'm in.
I'm laughing at you...so , while your intentions could be seen as a good
natured suggestion. Trust me , I'm just fine.
Laugh all you want, Its not like I'm making a ridiculous argument or an argument that most people would have a problem with so fine. Whatever you want, your posts carry an insulting matter for a discussion that really is not that important, but okay, if it makes you feel bigger to "talk down to me" be my guest.

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Originally Posted by Severe Punishment View Post
Nope, wrong again.
There are 32 buisnesses operating under 1 league. The league sets rules
as do each team. The rules of the league are designed (theoretically) to
give balance to all 32 buisness competing for the same goal, while at the same time trying to generate as much money as possible.
Each team though is seperate from all other 31 teams. Make no mistake of that.
No, I'm not wrong. The NFL is the business, with the teams being set up in differnet regions as part of that business. I don't really know why you bring league and team rules into the discussion that really doesn't make much sesne anyway. A large business, like the NFL may have general rules, whereas the smaller subdivisions, or regions (the teams), have more specific rules. They are not separate businesses but part of the same overall business, the NFL. Yes each team is trying to generate as much money as possible, but they work through the NFL.


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Originally Posted by Severe Punishment View Post
Ummm every single day. "steal" might not be the operative word..however
if your company could let you go and hire someone else to do the same job at exactly the same production yet at 1/2 the cost , you sir would be fired. There are no loyalties in todays buisness except with the decision makers and their lust for power.
and we're not talking about 1 team here having power over all other 31 teams...even the league doesn't do that. We're talking about A and B and C companies. To think that company A isn't trying to lure company "b"'s top employees...guess again.
No, your wrong here too. Companies hiring and firing is synonymous with free agency. If the individual branch doesn't feel a player is doing the right job he can be "cut" and picked up somewhere else. I don't know where in the NFL you will find someone doing the same production for 1/2 the cost anyway. Besides, all of that is free agency business when the original discussion was about the draft and players not being able to choose where they wanted to go, like Eli and Elway. So none of that really applies to the discussion anyway.

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Originally Posted by Severe Punishment View Post
This doesn't even translate to our discussion.
It did, because I was explaining that the branches/teams are part of the larger company, the NFL.

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Originally Posted by Severe Punishment View Post
Good lord how can you not get this ????
The NFL is a buisness that "hired" 32 seperate buisnesses. The league
has ultimate power over how things are run...but teams are free to deal
with their own buisness as they see fit.
Unless you honestly believe that Roger Goodell cares whether or not Jamarcus Russell signs with Oakland..if you do then I can just label you insaine and move on to other topics.
No the NFL is a business taht operates in 32 separate locations. Yes they have ultimate power in how things are run. Teams are free to deal with their own business how they deem fit, except for the players introduction to the business. Players are offered a starting position and can choose to accept or decline it. No one forces these players to come into the league, there are other professional football options out there for them if they do not like the NFL's policy of the draft. The draft is one of the burdens placed on players that they wouldn't have to experience elsewhere, but with the prestige and higher pay offered they can choose to deal with it, wait another year for another draft, or move onto another league. You made such a big deal in talking about how "This is America, not China", referring to capitalsim vs communism I assume, but players don't only have one option for professional football.


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Originally Posted by Severe Punishment View Post
You did when you offered up the CFL arena league and europe NFL as the alternatives to not signing with the team that drafted the player.
They are the alternatives to not signing with a team. Those are other professioanl football businesses. That's why this isn't a "communist organization" because there are other choices if they do not like the NFL Draft policy.

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Originally Posted by Severe Punishment View Post
Horribly wrong.
The players have and will continue to push to play for who they feel most comfortable playing for. Most of these 22 year old kids just don't undestand they have that right. When this belief becomes more "common" and sense takes over...they will have to put "buisness law" or more rules
to eliminate that. Until then the Eli Mannings and John Elway's of life will continue to have control over themselves and where they choose to work.
No. It's not there right to choose where they want to play initially. The NFL's policy is that it will offer them jobs in these locations or situations, and they can choose to accept or decline. If they accept they can do whatever they want to "demand a trade" or ask to be cut/released, but they do not have the right to choose exactly where they want to work, no one does even in real businesses, it depends what is offered to you.


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Originally Posted by Severe Punishment View Post
This wasn't a point.....unless you meant to better defend my statement as a fact. You Choose to work there...just as you could choose to quit, as for more money, fewer hours...blah blah blah. Then your employer would have to make a decision based on the fairness of your request.
However no one...no buisness and no league can tell you where you "must" work. To think so is sillly.
They can tell you where you must work if you want a job with that business. Like I said, the reason Player A might not want to work in the NFL is because they tell him where he is going to be located. If they do not like that, then they can play in a differnet professioanl leauge, where they can choose their location. They can quit the NFL, or never join if they want, but the NFL has the right to assign players where they want to.


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Originally Posted by Severe Punishment View Post
wrong again batman.
The league can tell a kid who his rights are held by (for 3 years) however
no kid MUST play for said team.
I think you're failing to realize that Eli Manning's trade was in part because
San Diego KNEW they couldn't force him to play ,...but they could dictate
what they could recieve in return.
They had no intentions of ever signing him...but it was smart buisness to take him , and "acution his rights" away to the highest bidder.
NY was just stupid enough to give the Chargers what they felt was adequate compensation.
Easy Robin, no need for the name-calling...
And exactly why did SD have the access to his "rights"? Because they are granted them by the larger business for having the worst production in the past year. Eli Manning did not have to sign with SD, which is why he could have sat out the year, or played in another leauge if he so desired. It's very simple like that, its not communism or any other ridiculous idea like that, it's that the NFL is allowed to allocate players where they wish when they first enter the league. No one MUST play for that team, but their rights are given to that team initially....

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Originally Posted by Severe Punishment View Post
I have no intention of trying to prove my feelings to you.
But , I stand by what I said.
Fine, we both know its not a ridiculous argument but feel free to disagree. Your opinion is not worth much.


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Originally Posted by Severe Punishment View Post
Well sense each "branch" in this league is a seperate entity..then yes, you are. Keep trying to convince yourself you aren't though.
And this is where the disagreement begins....but you're wrong on this one, since the Leauge is the business, and the temas are the branches, they are not independent of each other, they are bound together by the league.

What were your other points? Or did you just want to reply by using condesending talk in an attempt to shadow over the fact that your arguments may not have as much weight as you think they do.
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Old 06-10-2007, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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Manning: This guy is leaving the game as either the first or second best pure passer ever.
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Old 06-10-2007, 06:44 PM    (permalink
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To everyone who is voting Manning ahead of Unitas let his career finish first and then you can discuss him among the likes of Johnny U. Until then, go watch some film and read some stories and stats about Unitas because you clearly know nothing about anything that took place before 1980.
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Old 06-10-2007, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Ewing View Post
To everyone who is voting Manning ahead of Unitas let his career finish first and then you can discuss him among the likes of Johnny U. Until then, go watch some film and read some stories and stats about Unitas because you clearly know nothing about anything that took place before 1980.
QFT, look some day Manning may be the best QB there ever was. Maybe. But at this point in his career, compared with all the greats there were, over all the different eras, especially guys like Unitas, its way to early to say anything like that. Wait it out, and when its all said and done, then bring him up in that conversation. Now is too soon though for him.
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Old 06-10-2007, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewing View Post
To everyone who is voting Manning ahead of Unitas let his career finish first and then you can discuss him among the likes of Johnny U. Until then, go watch some film and read some stories and stats about Unitas because you clearly know nothing about anything that took place before 1980.
So you're saying theres NO argument for Manning being an all-time great right now? I mean right now, the dude is busy trying to re-write the record books, of COURSE he should be in the conversation. The only reason he isn't is because he's only 31 and he has at least 3-5 years left.

Why?

I'm a relative football n00b, but I learn quick you know.
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Old 06-10-2007, 08:01 PM    (permalink
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for all the people sayin johny u. U got problemsthere is no way he or the others are better then montana.Montana all the way
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Old 06-10-2007, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
So you're saying theres NO argument for Manning being an all-time great right now?

Why?

I'm a relative football n00b, but I learn quick you know.
Is he on his way to being one of the top five quarterbacks of all-time? Yes. Is he already there? No. If Manning were to get hit by a bus tomorrow and forced to retire would you say he was the greatest of all-time? No, because he hasn't played long enough to be considered the greatest of all-time. It's fine to say he's one of the top twenty of all-time, everyone will agree with that but to say he's better than Unitas, Marino, Elway, Montana, or Favre ever were at this point is completely moronic and far too focused on how current players preform.
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Old 06-10-2007, 08:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by tjpackers View Post
for all the people sayin johny u. U got problemsthere is no way he or the others are better then montana.Montana all the way
Why? Give me a reason other than "U got problemsthere is no way".
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Old 06-10-2007, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
So you're saying theres NO argument for Manning being an all-time great right now? I mean right now, the dude is busy trying to re-write the record books, of COURSE he should be in the conversation. The only reason he isn't is because he's only 31 and he has at least 3-5 years left.

Why?

I'm a relative football n00b, but I learn quick you know.
And Unitas ended his career with tons of records

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Originally Posted by tjpackers View Post
for all the people sayin johny u. U got problemsthere is no way he or the others are better then montana.Montana all the way
Im fine w/ people saying Montana>Unitas
Its very close IMO
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Old 06-10-2007, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by duckseason View Post
Let's not forget Steve Young. As a Cowboy fan, I grew up hating him and the 9ers with a passion, but he deserves mention as one of the greats of this generation. And I think a solid argument can be made that he was the very best. I don't want to start any unnecessary arguments, but I'd take him before some of the other guys mentioned. Sure he benefited greatly from playing in the WCO, but the same can be said for Joe. And Joe was in it before defenses began to come up with an answer for it.
Steve Young is my favorite QB, and maybe my favorite player (tied with jerry rice) of all time. I grew up watching him play and loved his style. If he could stay healthy i think he could have been the GOAT.

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Old 06-10-2007, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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Steve Young is my favorite QB, and maybe my favorite player (tied with jerry rice) of all time. I grew up watching him play and loved his style. If he could stay healthy i think he could have been the GOAT.

He always had Rice to throw to
TOugh life
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Old 06-10-2007, 08:51 PM    (permalink
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for all the ppl sayin montana is the greatest ever...can u give some reasons?
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Old 06-10-2007, 08:57 PM    (permalink
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He always had Rice to throw to
TOugh life
Peyton's had Marvin Harrison his whole career.
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Old 06-10-2007, 09:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by reese View Post
for all the ppl sayin montana is the greatest ever...can u give some reasons?
Montana:
Doesnt choke
Calm, collected, good leader
Great Technique, I've seen analysts break down his play, he definitly had great mechanics
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Old 06-10-2007, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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Peyton's had Marvin Harrison his whole career.
Im not debating that at all. I dont even think Peyton should have had a single vote in this and if we were all 25-40 years older then Unitas would be running away with this
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Old 06-10-2007, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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Montana:
Doesnt choke
Calm, collected, good leader
Great Technique, I've seen analysts break down his play, he definitly had great mechanics
all those are good...but is what u just said really enuf to make him the single best qb ever?
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Old 06-10-2007, 09:10 PM    (permalink
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Montana - Taylor,Rice and clark
Manning - Harrison, Wayne and Edge
Elway - Sharpe, Rod Smith and T Davis
Young - Rice, Taylor and Waters
Aikman - Irvin, Novacek and Emmitt
Johnny U - I'm not even going to try and pretend I know the players around him this time

All great QB's are going to have a great cast around them, that helped them to there successes, which warrants there name's into the this discussion. But the argument will always be was it the cast around them that made the QB great, or was it the QB that made the cast great.
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Old 06-10-2007, 09:12 PM    (permalink
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Montana - Taylor,Rice and clark
Manning - Harrison, Wayne and Edge
Elway - Sharpe, Rod Smith and T Davis
Young - Rice, Taylor and Waters
Aikman - Irvin, Novacek and Emmitt
Johnny U - I'm not even going to try and pretend I know the players around him this time

All great QB's are going to have a great cast around them, that helped them to there successes, which warrants there name's into the this discussion. But the argument will always be was it the cast around them that made the QB great, or was it the QB that made the cast great.

u put aikman in that and not marino?
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Old 06-10-2007, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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u put aikman in that and not marino?
You see where I put the word successes, to me that means championships and Superbowl rings. Dan Marino great QB, probably one of the best pure passers ever, but the list was list for comparison.

And don't take it like I offended you. Marino could care less if some guy on a NFL forum didn't include him on some list. So you shouldn't be so uptight about it.
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Old 06-10-2007, 09:23 PM    (permalink
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i wasnt uptight...i just wondered y....and marino having the competitive nature that he does...it just might bother him...lol..oh yea and ring or no ring...marino's career was very sucessfull
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Old 06-10-2007, 09:26 PM    (permalink
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Johnny U had Raymond Berry and Lenny Moore.
Two HOFers
But you can make a case that anyone of the other top QB's had two HOFers aside from Favre
Though Sterling couldve had he played longer
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Old 06-10-2007, 09:27 PM    (permalink
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all those are good...but is what u just said really enuf to make him the single best qb ever?
Yes. It was how well he did them. Quality>Quanity
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Old 06-10-2007, 09:34 PM    (permalink
49ersfan_87
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Originally Posted by neko4 View Post
He always had Rice to throw to
TOugh life
What about that year rice missed 13 games?
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Old 06-10-2007, 09:34 PM    (permalink
reese
 
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my top 3 is

1. marino
2. elway
3. favre

those guys i think in any system on any team and in any era would be the best

manning, when he is done will be up close to the top but he isnt there yet...if he is pressured alot he screws up...marino while not being able to run had a great pocket presence that manning doesnt have...favre & elway= playmakers...they put up numbers...they are leaders...they lead comebacks...those 3 are hands down the best to me....i leave montana out only becuz i dont think that he would be who he is had it not been for the situation he played in...look at it this way...put my 3 in montana's shoes..do they win those 4 super bowls? i think yes....put montana in any of there shoes and would he have had the careers that they did? i dont think so..but thats just my humble opinion
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Old 06-10-2007, 09:38 PM    (permalink
neko4
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Originally Posted by 49ersfan_87 View Post
What about that year rice missed 13 games?
he made the pro bowl, but nothing spectacular
19TD's
barely 3000yds
And they didnt go to the SB that year either
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