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View Poll Results: Testing Neo's Theory
Peyton Manning 24 15.29%
Joe Montana 63 40.13%
John Elway 51 32.48%
Johnny U 19 12.10%
Voters: 157. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-10-2007, 10:59 PM    (permalink
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The way I see it is: In 20 years, the mainstream will view Peyton Manning as the best QB ever, unless someone soon proves to be better(*cough*Cutler*cough*),simply because less and less people will be around to have seen the others. It's the same with Unitas, what percentage of football fans really remembers seeing him play? Probably not a whole lot. To a lot of them, I'm sure he is the best ever. It's like the NBA GOAT situation. Ask almost anyone, it's MJ. But a lot of older people who saw Wilt play would disagree. But since there aren't a lot of people except old curmudgeons who saw him play, most people ignore them. By the time I'm middle aged, LeBron will probly be the "best ever" and when my kids are middle aged, it will be whoever the next great player is. It just goes with the times, and who people have seen recently.
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:13 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by CutlerChris View Post
The way I see it is: In 20 years, the mainstream will view Peyton Manning as the best QB ever, unless someone soon proves to be better(*cough*Cutler*cough*),simply because less and less people will be around to have seen the others. It's the same with Unitas, what percentage of football fans really remembers seeing him play? Probably not a whole lot. To a lot of them, I'm sure he is the best ever. It's like the NBA GOAT situation. Ask almost anyone, it's MJ. But a lot of older people who saw Wilt play would disagree. But since there aren't a lot of people except old curmudgeons who saw him play, most people ignore them. By the time I'm middle aged, LeBron will probly be the "best ever" and when my kids are middle aged, it will be whoever the next great player is. It just goes with the times, and who people have seen recently.
Exactly.

Football is just "that sport." Stats only bring a guy into the argument, but people tend to highly value aura/team success/leadership ability etc. Why? Because football is so team oriented you very rarely find a all time great on a bad team, like you would in baseball or something.
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:22 AM    (permalink
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Nice post Chris.

But this brings up a question I always had. The other primary sports all have one significant legendary figure. Someone who's name, when uttered is instantly recognizable by hardcore sports fans and and non-sport fans alike. They are Icons who epitomize the essence of there sport. You mention the sport and there name coinsides with. And vice-versa. For basketball it is Jordan, baseball it's Babe Ruth, and NHL it's Gretzky. Does football have this one significant figure? Or is football to much of a team sport to even narrow it down just to one guy? Just something I always thought about.

And for what it's worth I think it's would Vince Lombardi.
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Old 06-11-2007, 09:39 PM    (permalink
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Nice post Chris.

But this brings up a question I always had. The other primary sports all have one significant legendary figure. Someone who's name, when uttered is instantly recognizable by hardcore sports fans and and non-sport fans alike. They are Icons who epitomize the essence of there sport. You mention the sport and there name coinsides with. And vice-versa. For basketball it is Jordan, baseball it's Babe Ruth, and NHL it's Gretzky. Does football have this one significant figure? Or is football to much of a team sport to even narrow it down just to one guy? Just something I always thought about.

And for what it's worth I think it's would Vince Lombardi.
Jim Brown. He's the greatest player of all-time and dominated the game like no other. Plus, he retired early which adds to his mystique and he crossed over into movies which made him even more popular.
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Old 06-11-2007, 10:13 PM    (permalink
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Nice post Chris.

But this brings up a question I always had. The other primary sports all have one significant legendary figure. Someone who's name, when uttered is instantly recognizable by hardcore sports fans and and non-sport fans alike. They are Icons who epitomize the essence of there sport. You mention the sport and there name coinsides with. And vice-versa. For basketball it is Jordan, baseball it's Babe Ruth, and NHL it's Gretzky. Does football have this one significant figure? Or is football to much of a team sport to even narrow it down just to one guy? Just something I always thought about.

And for what it's worth I think it's would Vince Lombardi.
I would say OJ Simpson, even though people recognize him for something negative instead of his NFL greatness.
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Old 06-11-2007, 10:20 PM    (permalink
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You could probably list an insane amount of names who would instantly trigger "NFL" in someone's head.

Montana
Deion
Elway
Marino
Rice
Cutler
Unitas
etc.

And I've held the belief for a while now that football is THE ultimate team sport. Think about it, on every single play, everyone has to do exactly what they're supposed to do. Every lineman has to block, the receivers need to run the right routes, even ones who wont get the ball, in order to draw the defense away and stuff. Even QBs need to get the ball to the right spot, RBs have to find the hole, pick up blitzes, etc. On D, if one DL isnt pulling his weight, that's a big hole to run through, and on pass plays they dont need to devote 2 blockers to the guy. If linebackers arent in their gaps or in the right coverage, you're screwed. DBs need to cover, or it's aTD.

Compare to hockey: A team can be playing the worst hockey imaginable, but they might win because their goalie is playing like a man possessed and they got a lucky bounce.

Baseball: Pitchers can dominate a game, even a hitter can by dictating the kinds of pitches the people hitting around him get.

Basketball: The Cavs made the finals with such starters as Larry Hughes and Zydrunas Ilgauskas.
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Old 06-11-2007, 10:22 PM    (permalink
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You could probably list an insane amount of names who would instantly trigger "NFL" in someone's head.

Montana
Deion
Elway
Marino
Rice
Cutler
Unitas
etc.
;) *shakes head*
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Old 06-11-2007, 11:35 PM    (permalink
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It's unfair to both Unitas and the players of this generation to compare them to each other. They don't even play the same game. Yeah, it's football, but the game has evolved to the point that it is completely different than it was in Unitas's era. It can be fun to compare players from different eras for arguments sake, but in reality there is really no way to definitively say a guy like Unitas was any better than Montana or Marino. Or even Drew Bledsoe, for that matter. I'd imagine that a guy like Carson Palmer would be completely unstoppable if he had played in the '60s. But that's just my imagination. In the realm of reality, there's really no basis for a meaningful comparison.
I understand what you're saying, but we were asked to choose the best QB of the bunch. In my estimation, the best way to compare players is to compare their performance to the average performance of the players of their generation. In that regard, Unitas is vastly superior to the others in my opinion, as he was 2 generations ahead of his time, and brought innovations such as the no huddle offense, the audible, and the 2 minute drill to the game, and was on the winning end of what is called by most NFL historians "The Greatest Game Ever Played", the 1958 NFL Championship, which is credited for putting the NFL "on the map" nationally.

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Bradshaw deserves at least top ten. HE WON 4! SUPERBOWLS! Lets see if Manning can ever get close to that
He won 4 Super Bowls? Don't make me laugh. The Steel Curtain won 4 Super Bowls and took Terry Bradshaw along for the ride. Winning a championship is a TEAM accomplishment, not an INDIVIDUAL accomplishment for which the QB is solely responsible, as far too much of the populus of the NFL fanbase seems to think.
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Old 06-11-2007, 11:51 PM    (permalink
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Peyton Manning, he's smarter and a better passer than any of those above him, sure the others were great in their own right, but I'm one of the few who believe Manning is the best of all time at his position.
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Old 06-12-2007, 12:09 AM    (permalink
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Right now Montana but Elway was a very close 2nd. But when Manning is done with football there is no doubt in my mind he will be the best QB to ever play the game.
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Old 06-12-2007, 12:23 AM    (permalink
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From that list, I'd take Unitas. Off the list, there's Otto Graham from the classics. Due to durability, and not having to worry about a position for 16 or so years, I'd still take Favre.
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Old 06-12-2007, 09:55 AM    (permalink
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it's somewhat annoying how often this garbage is repeated. how long has manning had harrison? how long did montana/young have rice? how long did elway have sharpe? i mean, gosh, sterling sharpe played in green bay, so favre must've played with hall of fame talent his entire career so it's totally ok to mention that in the same sentence that we talk about how manning has had harrison. i don't buy that supporting cast is an end-all, be-all here, but it's completely dishonest to present it in this way.
I don't see where your going or how your annoyed by my statement. If you read some of the post before that post, people were downplaying Montana's and Young's successes and accomplishments, because of Rice and Taylor, and the players around them. I was simply putting into perspective that all great QB's have a cast and team that helped them accomplish some of the things they did. So they shouldn't take away anything from Montana and Young.
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Old 06-12-2007, 10:12 AM    (permalink
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it's somewhat disgusting to me that, at this point in manning's career, he's beating anyone on that list, let alone unitas. but then i remember that most people on this board are 15-17.
Please dont bunch all of us 15 year olds with the Manning lovers
But I completly agree though, no one is thinking outside the 21st century
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Old 06-12-2007, 11:00 AM    (permalink
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I didn't vote for Manning, yet I'm in njx's demographic for Manning voters...
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Old 06-12-2007, 11:34 AM    (permalink
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Peyton Manning, he's smarter and a better passer than any of those above him, sure the others were great in their own right, but I'm one of the few who believe Manning is the best of all time at his position.
I don't know what's worse; your overrating of the Panthers or your overrating of Manning.
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Old 06-12-2007, 11:41 AM    (permalink
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Peyton Manning, he's smarter and a better passer than any of those above him, sure the others were great in their own right, but I'm one of the few who believe Manning is the best of all time at his position.
Montana had to be the smartest QB ever.
And Unitas threw for 40,000 yards in a daywhere 25,000 was big deal

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From that list, I'd take Unitas. Off the list, there's Otto Graham from the classics. Due to durability, and not having to worry about a position for 16 or so years, I'd still take Favre.
Huray another Otto Graham fan
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Old 06-12-2007, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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Old 06-12-2007, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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that's because you actually think outside of the sportscenter/madden/lack of hindsight box. as much as ea might disagree with that.
In other words he has brain
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Old 06-12-2007, 06:11 PM    (permalink
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that's because you actually think outside of the sportscenter/madden/lack of hindsight box. as much as ea might disagree with that.
I don't know whats worse, the old school lovers who think players like Unitas, Montana, Elway and the like have no weaknesses and can't possible be bettered by players in the modern day or the madden/sportscentre crowd as you dubbed everyone, using a gross generalisation, I might add.
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Old 06-12-2007, 06:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BlindSite View Post
I don't know whats worse, the old school lovers who think players like Unitas, Montana, Elway and the like have no weaknesses and can't possible be bettered by players in the modern day or the madden/sportscentre crowd as you dubbed everyone, using a gross generalisation, I might add.
I don't think anyone would say Unitas, Montana, Elway have no weaknesses and can't be passed by any of the "modern day" players. At this point in their careers though if you think players such as Tom Brady and Peyton Manning have surpassed them, you really have no respect for history of the game. They had flaws, but their accomplishments in their respective eras outshined anything that Manning, Brady, etc. have accomplished. It's not as much a generalization then a truth, that the people who view manning as a better QB are those more heavily influenced by the modern media and madden games. They would have to be, as few people who have seen the others play/reserached enough about them, would agree with that sentiment.

And I would say those people are worse.
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Old 06-12-2007, 09:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
the ONLY things you've supported him with so far are that he's a great passer and really smart.
I'm not going to say Manning is the best QB of all time as of now, but those are two pretty important factors with quarterbacks...
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Old 06-12-2007, 09:25 PM    (permalink
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For the record, I voted Elway. His ability to carry his team on his back to Superbowls that those Broncos had no business being in is what did it for me. I do however feel that Manning is the best passer of all-time, slightly edging Marino. However, while I don't agree with it, I can understand how somebody could say that the best passer is the best QB if that is the measurement they are using.
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Old 06-12-2007, 10:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
in all honesty? because listing rod smith/john elway next to steve young/jerry rice or peyton manning/marvin harrison is ridiculous and yet people constantly repeat that elway had davis/mccaffrey/smith as if they were in denver for elway's entire career, instead of just at the very end of it. elway/anyone is in no way whatsoever comparable to manning/harrison or even most of the other players you listed.
He had Smith and McCaffery for 5 years, Sharpe for 10, and prior to that (even by your own admission), Elway wasn't that great of a numbers QB, and as for your claims of "willing" teams to Super Bowls, it's a team sport, and 2 of those 3 teams had great defenses, while the other was there as a result of "The Drive", which admittedly was a great moment in Elway's career, but all the other guys you mentioned there have similar moments in their respective careers as well.

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dan marino is the only other all time great nfl quarterback who had as little talent early in his career (although marino continued to have no talent on that offense later in his career as well).
The Marks Brothers? Duper and Clayton were a pretty good duo. He didn't have a running game, but he had two Pro Bowl caliber WRs for nearly his entire first decade in the NFL.
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Old 06-12-2007, 11:02 PM    (permalink
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You're going to penalise manning for having a good supporting cast. Awesome argument there.
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Old 06-13-2007, 12:16 AM    (permalink
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The Marks Brothers? Duper and Clayton were a pretty good duo. He didn't have a running game, but he had two Pro Bowl caliber WRs for nearly his entire first decade in the NFL.
Duper and Clayton are two Reggie Waynes, now lets do some math

Duper+Clayton or
Harrison+Wayne>Duper+Clayton
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