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View Poll Results: Testing Neo's Theory
Peyton Manning 24 15.29%
Joe Montana 63 40.13%
John Elway 51 32.48%
Johnny U 19 12.10%
Voters: 157. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-13-2007, 12:17 AM    (permalink
Dam8610
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
wow! five whole years! at the end of his career! *yawn*
During his best production seasons. Do you not see the corrolation there?

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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
and shannon sharpe for two ineffective years, then 7 productive ones (elway had him for 9 seasons, not 10)? wow. so for 7/16 years he had a receiver? gosh. yeah, i should just shut up. clearly he played with comparable talent to manning.
He clearly had comparable numbers to Manning as well. Again, note when Elway had great production. You really don't see the corrolation between Sharpe, McCaffery, and Smith, and Elway's best performance? You must be blind if that's the case.

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but yeah, it was that DEFENSE that brought the team back from a 21-6 deficit against houston in 1992?
I didn't realize that got them to the Super Bowl. If you want a great comeback from each of the other QB's respective careers, I'm sure you could easily find that information.

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it was the DEFENSE that engineered the most 4th quarter comebacks of any QB ever at the time he retired? are you bloody insane?
When did I say Elway was not a great QB? All I'm saying is you, like a lot of other people, put far too much into certain QBs' respective supporting casts. The best case for why it's far less relevant than a lot of people seem to think is Terry Bradshaw. John Stallworth, Lynn Swann, and Franco Harris for basically his whole career, and he barely threw for 25000 yards and had only 2 more TDs than INTs. You'd think with 2 HOF WRs and a great RB, any QB could put up better numbers than that, but Bradshaw is proof to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
how many 4th quarter comebacks does peyton have in the playoffs? it's a simple question, but i'm sure you'll try to dodge it anyways.
One, as seen being capped off here. Of course, that doesn't count the two times Mike Vanderjagt blew games for him, but I'm sure that's more than you thought.

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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
i don't recall saying anything about elway's numbers, however, it's interesting to me that manning gets praised for having great numbers with a hall of fame wideout who's been there for his entire career and elway gets dumped on for putting up some great lifetime numbers in spite of not having had anything vaguely resembling a top receiver for the vast majority of his career.
Supporting cast, while important, isn't as important as you're making it out to be. If it were Terry Bradshaw would probably be considered the best QB ever. That said, Steve Watson seemed to have a couple good seasons early on in Elway's career, and if you notice, as Elway's supporting cast improved, so did his numbers. Obviously if a player has better players around them, their performance will improve, but it's not something that can turn a bad QB into a great one, and if you look at Peyton Manning's numbers, you'll see that while he has a great supporting cast, he also unbelieveable career averages. His average season in terms of yardage and TDs, for example, is 4176 and 31. How many QBs in NFL history even come close to that?

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yeah... a combined 9 1000 yard seasons out of a possible 21 seasons with the most prolific quarterback in nfl history? hot. a combined 6 10+ td seasons playing with the all time td pass leader? wow. yeah, these dudes were clearly the force behind marino's talent. they're very comparable to harrison (6 straight 1000 yard seasons) and wayne (3 straight) and a combine 9/17. i can definitely see how they're worth including in this discussion.
Duper missed 7, 5, 4, and 3 games in various seasons, and Clayton missed 6, 4, and 3 games in seperate seasons and played one season in GB, Whereas Harrison has missed 4 games in one season with Peyton Manning (Manning's rookie year), and Wayne has missed 3 games in his career. Still, 9/21 (counting Clayton's season in GB) vs. 9/17 and 8 Pro Bowls vs. 9 Pro Bowls. There's not a ton of difference there. Why do you want to take away from what Manning has done so badly? He's a great QB, and if he continues on his current paces, there's going to be a very strong case for him at the end of his career as the best QB ever.
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Old 06-13-2007, 12:23 AM    (permalink
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at least you responded to the full argument. awesome. manning had a superior supporting cast and still consistently chokes in the playoffs. elway took an awful supporting cast and WILLED them to the super bowl. you clearly don't belong in this discussion.
Yeah, that #1 scoring defense in 1989 sure was awful. Same goes for that #7 scoring defense in 1987. I guess you could say Elway "willed" the 1986 Broncos to the Super Bowl, but then you'd have to be willing to admit that Peyton Manning "willed" the 2006 Colts to the Super Bowl.
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Old 06-13-2007, 05:01 AM    (permalink
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at least you responded to the full argument. awesome. manning had a superior supporting cast and still consistently chokes in the playoffs. elway took an awful supporting cast and WILLED them to the super bowl. you clearly don't belong in this discussion.
Consistently chokes in the playoffs, last I checked he's got something on his finger that says otherwise? 25/38 for 247 yards and 1td and 1 INT is pretty good against the bears.

He's also on track to kill montana's career statistics with his own and will be ahead of him in yards and TDs and completion percentage by this time next year.

He just needs time, when he's finished he'll have all the records and he'll have a superbowl ring, what more can you ask for? He hasn't had to WILL a team to victory like you think Elway did.

Which is BS anyway, did he block for elway as well as catch passes for elway? It was a team effort, not all Elway, he made a lot of great plays and was a pivotal part, but that's what he was, part of a team. So lets not get to sounding like a homer and screaming he willed a team to do anything.
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Old 06-13-2007, 05:17 AM    (permalink
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Consistently chokes in the playoffs, last I checked he's got something on his finger that says otherwise? 25/38 for 247 yards and 1td and 1 INT is pretty good against the bears.

He's also on track to kill montana's career statistics with his own and will be ahead of him in yards and TDs and completion percentage by this time next year.

He just needs time, when he's finished he'll have all the records and he'll have a superbowl ring, what more can you ask for? He hasn't had to WILL a team to victory like you think Elway did.

Which is BS anyway, did he block for elway as well as catch passes for elway? It was a team effort, not all Elway, he made a lot of great plays and was a pivotal part, but that's what he was, part of a team. So lets not get to sounding like a homer and screaming he willed a team to do anything.
wait wait. njx wasn't talking the superbowl
consistantly over the past four years in the playoffs
think about that.
every time vs the pats.
how about the game vs the ravens this year?
he has lackluster games during the post season.

elway, johnny u. either or. i had a hard time choosing.
but for the love of god. peyton manning doesn't have anything on them.
elway made productive receivers. marino made productive receivers.
i don't think manning or montana can really claim that. montana was great, but bill walsh was greater.
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Old 06-13-2007, 05:32 AM    (permalink
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every time vs the pats.
Really?

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Originally Posted by awfullyquiet View Post
how about the game vs the ravens this year?
He threw 2 INTs, had a TD dropped by Moorehead, but made the big plays that were needed to get the Colts in FG range and score enough points to get the job done against the #1 scoring defense (by a WIDE margin) in the NFL. Most people would agree that any other QB wouldn't have even done that well against the Ravens' defense the way they played that day.

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he has lackluster games during the post season.
I can think of 1, but you're welcome to provide examples other than the 2003 AFC Championship game if you'd like.

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Originally Posted by awfullyquiet View Post
elway, johnny u. either or. i had a hard time choosing.
but for the love of god. peyton manning doesn't have anything on them.
Do you have a reason for this, or is this something you expect to be taken as unquestionable fact, when in reality, it's merely your opinion?

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elway made productive receivers. marino made productive receivers. i don't think manning or montana can really claim that.
You should really look at Harrison, Pollard, and Stokely prior to having Manning as their QB, and having Manning as their QB. He just about doubled each of their production levels. But you're right, Elway and Marino are the only ones that can make a WR.
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Old 06-13-2007, 07:00 AM    (permalink
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You should really look at Harrison, Pollard, and Stokely prior to having Manning as their QB, and having Manning as their QB. He just about doubled each of their production levels. But you're right, Elway and Marino are the only ones that can make a WR.
Wow. So how do you explain your persistent claim that Marvin is the best WR in the game?
Gotta love how people craft their posts to put as much weight as possible behind their argument, while ignoring the fact that they are talking outta both sides of their neck at the same time. Sadly, what was originally an effort to come up with a strong argument backfires into a loss of credibility. Get your story straight.
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Old 06-13-2007, 07:11 AM    (permalink
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I don't think that Manning has a leg up on any of these gentlemen at this point in time. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see him be widely considered the all-time great by the time he hangs up the cleats, but what exactly would make him better than Montana right now?

3 less Superbowls, 2 more touchdowns, and substantially less impressive rushing stats? Come on now.

As for Elway and Unitas, that is another matter. Unitas is tough, because the two eras really aren't comparable. No one can deny what he meant to the game, but it is terribly difficult to place him in any sort of quarterback ranking. Elway, while a very good quarterback who ended his career like a storybook, has little basis to say that he was better than Manning. The first 10 seasons of his career were underwhelming to say the least, and while the next 6 were impressive (especially considering his age), they don't completely wipe away what was a very mediocre career before he turned the age of 32.

Montana is better, Elway is a bit overrated, and Unitas is from another time.
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Old 06-13-2007, 07:35 AM    (permalink
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what the bloody hell are you talking about? 1993 was elway's most productive year. rod smith was not on the team. terrell davis was not on the team. mike shanahan was not on the team. but yeah, the immortal derek russell at wr. awesome.
1995-1998 is by far the best run of Elway's career. I agree that 1993 was his best year (he did have Sharpe at the time though), but the other 4 of his 5 best years came with all of those players I mentioned. That's my point.

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i'm waiting for the actual counter argument here. "manning has amazing passing numbers OMFG!!!!!1" is a worthless argument. i'm telling you why. "but elway had rod smith and shannon sharpe" is a worthless argument. i'm telling you why. but gosh. yeah. too bad elway didn't have them in the actual prime of his career so we could just ignore the numbers argument as well. it'd be much easier than dealing with this "but omg manning will break records" garbage.
They're not worthless arguments, because the fact that Manning puts up unbelieveable numbers is proof that he's a great QB (my argument, I'm certainly not arguing that he's the greatest at this point), and the fact that Elway had 4 of his 5 best years with Smith, McCaffery and Sharpe is proof that Elway had most of his best years with a great supporting cast.

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a? as in one? elway consistently did it with worse talent than any modern qb you'd like to offer up, period.
One to match the one you provided. Manning has something in the neighborhood of 30 4th quarter comebacks in his career, including making up 21 points on the road against the defending champs in 4 minutes, and I'm not sure how many Montana has, but based on his reputation, I'd say he has quite a few more than one as well.

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*shrug* i think terry bradshaw was trent dilfer with a better offense, but that's neither here nor there. i'm NOT putting too much stock in a qb's supporting cast. i'm ticked off because someone mentioned rod smith next to elway as if it were at all similar to marvin harrison and peyton manning. i'm further ticked off because people think that, at this point in his career, peyton manning has any vague claim at best ever.
I can't really disagree with any of that.

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finally! someone stopped dodging the question! figures it would be a colts fan who's actually watched peyton instead of a panthers fan who likely hasn't, but whatever. which two games?
The Wild Card Game against the Dolphins in 2000 and the Divisional Game against the Steelers in 2005. Manning put the Colts in position to win the first and to tie the second, and Vanderjagt missed both FGs horribly.

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dan marino is pretty close with almost nothing worth throwing to. again, my entire argument does NOT hinge on supporting cast. but it's massively annoying when people act as though elway's or marino's numbers are comparable to peyton's. i'm not looking at quarterbacks solely through a statistical filter (as many of the peyton supporters seem to be doing) because it's clearly a worthless argument on its own.
3609 yards and 25 TDs are Marino's averages, 3759 yards and 26 TDs if you take out 1993, in which he only played 5 games. Still, he's about 400 yards and 5 TDs short per year, and he had the Marks brothers for a decade. Obviously there is more to a QB than simply statistics, but the point I was trying to make there was that Manning's numbers are amazing regardless of supporting cast. He has more than just numbers in his favor (for making the case that he is a great QB), as I'm sure you know, but I think that the ridiculously high averages Manning puts up show that while he has a great supporting cast, he also makes the most out of them, which is part of what a great QB does.

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i'm taking nothing away, and if nothing changes in the next 5-6 years, i will be right there talking about peyton in the top 3. but a ninth year vet has absolutely no business whatsoever in this discussion. it strikes me as talking about larry fitzgerald as one of the best wr's ever. while it may end up being true, it's completely ridiculous to bring it up this early, and it's even worse that anyone agrees with it. again. in 5 or 6 years? sure. if his production doesn't drop too badly, i'm all in for revisiting this.
I see your point, and I agree. He's not there yet, and I've said that even on this thread. That said, I don't think a very strong case could be made for him being any less than a Top 10 QB at this point, and that's a feat in itself considering he hasn't even played a decade in the NFL yet.

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Wow. So how do you explain your persistent claim that Marvin is the best WR in the game?
Gotta love how people craft their posts to put as much weight as possible behind their argument, while ignoring the fact that they are talking outta both sides of their neck at the same time. Sadly, what was originally an effort to come up with a strong argument backfires into a loss of credibility. Get your story straight.
Loss of credibility? When have I not claimed that Manning and Harrison help each other? Of course, that means that Manning makes Harrison better, and Harrison makes Manning better, both of which are true. It's the same with Montana/Young and Rice. When you have great players playing together, they make each other better.
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Old 06-13-2007, 07:45 AM    (permalink
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so you pointed out one OK game? christ, you really don't belong in this discussion.
I must have missed him being benched during the other playoff games, like against the scrub team, new england.

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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
hot! who cares? that's not what we're talking about, but since you were losing the playoff performance argument, you decided to switch up. killer.
I'm losing an argument about playoff ability when he's won a superbowl? Go to dictionary.com and search for "logic" your argument is severely lacking in it.

Oh and as for "who cares" it adds weight to my argument, the fact that if he is the best, he'll be among the best statistically years ahead of the people I'm saying he's better than.

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oh, right. that's why he has ONE super bowl ring, right? because he didn't really want to win the other years, so he didn't put the team on his back.
You expect him to play cornerback and linebacker? Last time I checked Elway didn't play either of those positions either, or are you really going to grasp at straws and try to say that Indianapolis has had a championship defense every year previous to this one?

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what the hell does that have to do with anything? why on bloody planet earth would you think peyton should blockor receive for elway? what the hell are you talking about? further, you did NOT watch those games. you have NO idea what you're talking about in regards to elway. so stop talking about it. he put the team on his back against the browns and oilers (for two examples) and made them win. period.
Elway helped them win with excellent personal performances, but that's not to say that he's made more of a contribution to the Broncos overall than Peyton has made to Indianapolis.

For you to even make sense in this vein of argument you'd need to flatly come out and say "Peyton has not done anything any other QB couldn't have done" because right now, no QB in the NFL means more to their team than Peyton Manning. I'd say, he's comparable to Elway in that facet.

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look, i'm sick of this. don't bother posting again until you have something worth saying to put up. dam at least knows something about the colts. you have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about. your arguments are terrible. the structure of your argument is terrible. the information you present is terrible. i'm sick of it.
I'm terrible, at least I type legibly and use correct punctuation. Furthermore, the substance of my arguments is apt, its accurate and its correct, yours on the other hand have just been typing in big letters "FACT" where your opinion is inserted, then declaring yourself victorious. I'm yet to see any reason Elway's better than Manning...
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Old 06-13-2007, 07:50 AM    (permalink
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Loss of credibility? When have I not claimed that Manning and Harrison help each other? Of course, that means that Manning makes Harrison better, and Harrison makes Manning better, both of which are true. It's the same with Montana/Young and Rice. When you have great players playing together, they make each other better.
By saying that Manning "makes" Harrison what he is, you're saying that Harrison is far from being the best WR in the game. The fact that you've previously stated that Marvin is the best in the game would make this a contradiction.

Of course they help each other. That's the way it works in football. Which is why it's ridiculous to say that Manning "doubled" Harrison's production level. Like I said, you're double talking in an attempt to strengthen your argument. The end result is a much weaker argument and a loss of credibility. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

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Originally Posted by Dam8610 View Post
You should really look at Harrison, Pollard, and Stokely prior to having Manning as their QB, and having Manning as their QB. He just about doubled each of their production levels. But you're right, Elway and Marino are the only ones that can make a WR.
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Old 06-13-2007, 07:58 AM    (permalink
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By saying that Manning "makes" Harrison what he is, you're saying that Harrison is far from being the best WR in the game. The fact that you've previously stated that Marvin is the best in the game would make this a contradiction.

Of course they help each other. That's the way it works in football. Which is why it's ridiculous to say that Manning "doubled" Harrison's production level. Like I said, you're double talking in an attempt to strengthen your argument. The end result is a much weaker argument and a loss of credibility. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.
I never said Manning "makes" Harrison, but the fact is, Harrison's production levels have nearly doubled since Manning's arrival in Indianapolis. Does that mean any WR could consistently perform on the same level Marvin does given the same oppurtunity? No. That simply means that Marvin's production level has nearly doubled with Peyton Manning throwing to him, as opposed to other QBs throwing to him, which, at least in some small part, has to be a result of having Peyton Manning throwing the ball to him.
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Old 06-13-2007, 08:36 AM    (permalink
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I never said Manning "makes" Harrison, but the fact is, Harrison's production levels have nearly doubled since Manning's arrival in Indianapolis. Does that mean any WR could consistently perform on the same level Marvin does given the same oppurtunity? No. That simply means that Marvin's production level has nearly doubled with Peyton Manning throwing to him, as opposed to other QBs throwing to him, which, at least in some small part, has to be a result of having Peyton Manning throwing the ball to him.
So re-word your post. Like I said, you overstated Manning's impact on the Colts' receivers in order to strengthen your argument. You DID imply that Manning somehow makes Harrison what he is, and you did in fact say that Manning just about doubled Harrison's production.
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Old 06-13-2007, 08:42 AM    (permalink
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Like I said, you overstated Manning's impact on the Colts' receivers in order to strengthen your argument.
I did no more overstating of my argument than awfullyquiet did of his argument. Do you really think Duper, Clayton, Sharpe, and/or Smith would've been nothing without Elway/Marino? I certainly don't.
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Old 06-13-2007, 08:55 AM    (permalink
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I did no more overstating of my argument than awfullyquiet did of his argument. Do you really think Duper, Clayton, Sharpe, and/or Smith would've been nothing without Elway/Marino? I certainly don't.
I disagree. She didn't say anything about those guys. She merely stated that Marino and Elway made productive WR's, and then questioned whether Montana and Manning did the same. While I think that was a blanket statement that I don't necessarily agree with, at least she didn't contradict herself.

I chose to specifically respond to you because I thought it was odd that you would make such a post. My BS-dar was sending an amber alert to my temple. I've seen you talk about how Marvin is the best WR in the game, and then here I was reading a post written by you, that was grossly minimizing Harrison's talents in an effort to boost your argument about Manning.
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Old 06-13-2007, 09:14 AM    (permalink
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I disagree. She didn't say anything about those guys. She merely stated that Marino and Elway made productive WR's, and then questioned whether Montana and Manning did the same. While I think that was a blanket statement that I don't necessarily agree with, at least she didn't contradict herself.
In stating such, she implied that those players would not have been good without their respective QBs.

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I chose to specifically respond to you because I thought it was odd that you would make such a post. My BS-dar was sending an amber alert to my temple. I've seen you talk about how Marvin is the best WR in the game, and then here I was reading a post written by you, that was grossly minimizing Harrison's talents in an effort to boost your argument about Manning.
It's all a poor wording choice basically. If I'd said "Each of those 3 has seen their production level nearly double while playing with Manning" instead of "He just about doubled each of their production levels", that would likely have better conveyed my point. That said, I don't think any player "makes" any other player. If that's your mentality though, it is difficult to argue against Manning "making" receivers when he has played with 3 pass catchers (Harrison, Pollard, Stokley) who had NFL careers prior to playing with him, and while playing with him as opposed to prior to doing so, their production levels at least nearly doubled (more than doubled in the cases of Stokley and Pollard). I do believe that Manning did improve the performance and hence production of all 3 of those players though.
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Old 06-14-2007, 01:47 AM    (permalink
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John Elway played on a team that was coached and run by Dan Reeves and was still successful. 'Nuff said.
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Old 06-14-2007, 04:20 AM    (permalink
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It's all a poor wording choice basically.
Exactly my point. Your choice of words was geared towards trumping up your homer-centric Manning argument. I'm glad to see that you recognize that fact. Hopefully you'll refrain from making such farcical statements in the future.

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If I'd said "Each of those 3 has seen their production level nearly double while playing with Manning" instead of "He just about doubled each of their production levels", that would likely have better conveyed my point.
I still would have responded to you if you in any way implied that Manning deserved the majority of the credit for Harrison's increased production. If he's the best WR in the game, then he's the best regardless of who his QB is.

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That said, I don't think any player "makes" any other player. If that's your mentality though, it is difficult to argue against Manning "making" receivers when he has played with 3 pass catchers (Harrison, Pollard, Stokley) who had NFL careers prior to playing with him, and while playing with him as opposed to prior to doing so, their production levels at least nearly doubled (more than doubled in the cases of Stokley and Pollard). I do believe that Manning did improve the performance and hence production of all 3 of those players though.
Ok. #1, that is not my mentality at all. Don't put words in my mouth. It appears to be your own personal mentality. Don't blame me for your faulty logic. You're the one who said these things.

#2, you still seem to be giving Manning a ton of credit for Harrison's greatness. While I agree that Manning is the primary reason for the Colts success in the passing game, I don't believe that Harrison is the single best WR in the game today. You do. Seems odd for you to claim that Manning plays such a huge role in Harrison's success. Wouldn't Harrison be just as great if he played for the Rams or Cardinals?

My point remains that you are talking out of both sides of your neck. You're going to the extreme to defend both of these players. Manning "makes" his WR's who they are. Yet Harrison is the best WR in the game. The truth lies in the middle. Manning is a great QB, and Harrison is a great WR. Together, they are nearly unstoppable. Although they do both have their flaws. Is Manning the greatest QB ever? I don't think so. I think he has his strengths and weaknesses. I've seen other QB's with lesser weaknesses. Is Harrison the best WR in the game? Not in my opinion. Same with Manning, I think there are a few other players who have lesser weaknesses. They, and the rest of the Colts make for a prolific offense. They are both beneficiaries of playing for the COLTS. And they are a big part of that, as the rest of the team certainly benefits from playing with them too. That is a well crafted team, and it is obvious that management has taken great care to ensure that their players form as cohesive a unit as possible. They don't necessarily go for the best athletes. They seem to go for guys that will fit their team, first and foremost. Manning and Harrison seem to be made for each other. I just don't see how anybody in their right mind can sit there and say that Harrison is the best WR in the game, and also believe that Manning is primarily responsible for the guy's production. You're exaggerating the greatness of both players, and playing them off each other in order to do so. That is what I take issue with. Just keep it real. They are both great players, and as a Colts fan, you should feel lucky to have seen the stars align in much the same way they did in '80s frisco. There is absolutely no need at all to overstate the value of either of them. The numbers they end up posting will do that for them. In other words, it's questionable whether either of them would be in this conversation if it weren't for each other and the team they play for. I know you know this, so just act accordingly.
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:01 AM    (permalink
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Exactly my point. Your choice of words was geared towards trumping up your homer-centric Manning argument. I'm glad to see that you recognize that fact. Hopefully you'll refrain from making such farcical statements in the future.
Homer-centric Manning argument? If you honestly believe my argument consists of nothing more than homerism, I'd like you to compile a list of 10 QBs in NFL history that would be regarded as better than Peyton Manning, because that's the only claim I've made about him on this thread.

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I still would have responded to you if you in any way implied that Manning deserved the majority of the credit for Harrison's increased production. If he's the best WR in the game, then he's the best regardless of who his QB is.
What you're saying there would imply that QB play makes absolutely no difference in the level of a WR's production, something which you have already stated on this thread is not true. Apparently you can contradict yourself?

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Ok. #1, that is not my mentality at all. Don't put words in my mouth. It appears to be your own personal mentality. Don't blame me for your faulty logic. You're the one who said these things.
Actually, it's awfullyquiet's mentality, not mine, and if you'll notice (though you may not notice this, as was your mistake here), I said "If that's your mentality...", because it did appear from your previous statements that that in fact was not the case for you.

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#2, you still seem to be giving Manning a ton of credit for Harrison's greatness. While I agree that Manning is the primary reason for the Colts success in the passing game, I don't believe that Harrison is the single best WR in the game today. You do. Seems odd for you to claim that Manning plays such a huge role in Harrison's success. Wouldn't Harrison be just as great if he played for the Rams or Cardinals?
Depends on what you mean by "great". Would he still have his amazing route running skills, speed, and ability to make tough catches? Yes. Would CBs still say he's the toughest WR in the NFL to cover? Yes. Would he have the same level of production? I doubt it, because the performance level of the QB would be lesser, and thus his production levels would suffer.

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My point remains that you are talking out of both sides of your neck. You're going to the extreme to defend both of these players.
No I'm not, I'm simply stating facts. Do you honestly think that playing with Montana, Young, and Gannon (in his MVP caliber years) didn't help Jerry Rice at all? Do you think he'd have anywhere near the career numbers he has now had he played with Phil Simms, Chris Chandler, and Brad Johnson? Obviously a WR has to be talented to be productive, but having a great QB will always help.

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Manning "makes" his WR's who they are.
Who's putting words in whose mouth?

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That said, I don't think any player "makes" any other player.
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Yet Harrison is the best WR in the game.
Torry Holt is the only WR in the NFL currently that comes close to his consistent production levels (though Holt doesn't catch as many TDs), and the best CBs of the NFL say he's the toughest WR to cover. If you don't agree with my opinion, that's fine, but there's substantial evidence to back it.

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Is Manning the greatest QB ever? I don't think so.
Did I say he was? No. Could he be by the end of his career? It's possible.

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You're exaggerating the greatness of both players, and playing them off each other in order to do so. That is what I take issue with. Just keep it real. They are both great players, and as a Colts fan, you should feel lucky to have seen the stars align in much the same way they did in '80s frisco. There is absolutely no need at all to overstate the value of either of them. The numbers they end up posting will do that for them. In other words, it's questionable whether either of them would be in this conversation if it weren't for each other and the team they play for. I know you know this, so just act accordingly.
They make each other better. I acknowledge that. Does that mean they aren't great players seperately? No. If you think that playing together is the only reason Manning and Harrison are great players, do you rate Rice lower for playing with Montana, Young, and Gannon, or Montana lower for playing with Rice? You should if you rate Manning and Harrison lower for playing with each other.
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Old 06-15-2007, 01:32 AM    (permalink
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Wow. It would require far too much of my time to properly respond to all that. I'll just remind you of the post that I originally took issue with-

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You should really look at Harrison, Pollard, and Stokely prior to having Manning as their QB, and having Manning as their QB. He just about doubled each of their production levels. But you're right, Elway and Marino are the only ones that can make a WR.
You said that. I responded. If you'd like to rescind those comments, that's fine.
Otherwise, I stand by everything I've said.
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Old 06-15-2007, 02:26 AM    (permalink
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Wow. It would require far too much of my time to properly respond to all that.
Then why bother responding at all? Everything else you said in this post has already been addressed earlier in the thread, so you can go find it if you'd like attempt to continue a circular discussion on that particular comment, but I've already addressed that, so I doubt I'll be continuing any discussion about it.
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