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Old 07-14-2007, 12:11 AM    (permalink
Denver Bronco99
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Default Overrated Underrated Pass-rushers

In this week's installment of the NFL's most underrated and overrated players, I will be reviewing pass-rushers. The method I use to grade pass-rushers is based on the different sack types. The major sack types are coverage, garbage, individual, run and scheme. (The full list of sack types can be found in the complete glossary.)



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July 10 Glossary
Coverage sack: A sack that occurs in the pocket, three seconds or more after the snap.
Garbage sack: When one defensive player gets a sack due to the pass rushing efforts of another defender. One typical example of this is when a defensive end crashes the pocket from the outside and forces the quarterback to step up into a well-blocked defensive tackle. The tackle was only able to get the sack because of the defensive end's pass rush, so he is credited with a garbage sack.

Individual effort sack: This is a sack when a defender beats an offensive blocker in a one-on-one blocking situation.

Run sack: This type of sack is credited when a quarterback starts to run after dropping back to pass the ball. The quarterback must be out of the pocket and pull the ball down, tuck it away and be running towards the line of scrimmage for a play to be noted as a run sack.

Scheme sack: Sacks that come off stunts or blitzes are tracked in this category.

Complete Glossary

Individual effort sacks are considered the most valuable because they show the pass-rusher can beat one-on-one blocking. Scheme sacks are also valuable because they show the rusher can be utilized in a number of ways.

Coverage, garbage and run sacks do have value, but I don't consider them great indicators of pure pass-rushing ability. Any player tallying a lot of these sacks may not be as good a pass-rusher as his sack total would indicate.

Sacks can also be split between categories. If a defensive ends stunts to the inside and is picked up by the guard, then beats the guard with a bull rush, the sack is listed as being half a scheme sack (for the stunt) and half an individual effort sack (for beating the guard one-on-one).

As has been the case for each of the overrated/underrated articles, players are rated based on their 2006 metrics. Pro Bowl berths are given significant weight in determining the perception of a player.



Overrated pass-rushers
Will Smith
Smith made the Pro Bowl last year in large part due to his 10.5 sacks, but those included three coverage sacks and 1.5 garbage sacks. Smith is still a very good player and probably deserved the Pro Bowl berth based on his overall game, but he is not as good a pass-rusher as his sack total would indicate.

Jared Allen
Allen's sack total (7.5) in 2006 was the lowest of his career, but he actually did even worse than the total indicates. Allen had one run sack and was practically gifted another when his blocker blew an assignment and left Allen completely unblocked. Only three of his sacks were individual effort sacks, and one of those came when Allen was matched up against a running back.

Others:
Robert Geathers: His 10.5 sacks tied for 14th in the league, but four of these were of the coverage/garbage/blown block variety.
Bobby McCray: McCray racked up 10 sacks last year, but 3.5 of these were coverage sacks and another 1.5 were garbage sacks.


Underrated pass-rushers
Trevor Pryce
Pryce did not make the Pro Bowl despite registering 13 sacks last year. His sack total is even more impressive when you consider that 6.5 of Pryce's sacks were of the individual effort variety and only 2.5 were of the garbage/blown block variety. He is a superb pass-rusher in both one-on-one situations and when utilized on the blitz.

Mark Anderson
Anderson posted 13 sacks as a rookie last year, including eight of the individual effort variety, and also didn't make the Pro Bowl. Amazingly, Anderson's individual effort sack total would have ranked 26th in the league on its own.

Others:
Elvis Dumervil: Dumervil was a situational pass-rusher for the Broncos last year and put up 8.5 sacks, 7.5 of which were individual effort sacks.
Kamerion Wimbley: Wimbley's 11 sacks showed he had a very good rookie season, but it was the diversity of the sack types that put him on this list. He had 6.5 individual effort sacks but also had a total of two scheme sacks. The scheme sacks were all split with other sack types, so he actually had sacks on blitzes/stunts on four separate plays. He is just as good at moving around the defense to get past his man as he is at simply beating his man one-on-one.

KC Joyner, aka The Football Scientist, is a regular contributor to ESPN Insider. His core passing metrics can be found in the ESPN Fantasy Football Magazine, which hits newsstands on June 19. A free sample of his latest release ("Scientific Football 2007") is available at his Web site.
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Old 07-14-2007, 12:12 AM    (permalink
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Underrated:
Leonard Little
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Old 07-14-2007, 12:16 AM    (permalink
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Overrated - Joey Porter

Underrated - Roosevely Colvin
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Old 07-14-2007, 01:16 AM    (permalink
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I will continue the trend of saying that a player on my team is under-rated!

Under-rated: Kyle Vanden Bosch
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Old 07-14-2007, 01:25 AM    (permalink
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I will continue the trend of saying that a player on my team is under-rated!

Under-rated: Kyle Vanden Bosch
me too - underrated shaun phillips // overrated jevon kearse
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Old 07-14-2007, 01:27 AM    (permalink
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i def. agree with the list...as they break it down.

i think it would be intresting to see how Julius peppers and shawn merrimen sacks were got
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Old 07-14-2007, 01:41 AM    (permalink
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Not really sure I'd say KVB is underrated, because while I believe indepth stats show he was one of the better all round pass rushing DE's last season when you consider all things and not just sacks (which are an overrated stat in some regards, not as much as INT's though), he's still a pretty one dimensional player and you've gotta expect more sacks from a guy like that.

I reckon Derrick Burgess is vastly underrated. These past two seasons he has been one of the best sack artists in the league and yet he always seems to escape discussion from articles like these. Even if they listed him as overrated that would be something - i.e., at this point just acknowledging him seems to be a step forward.
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Old 07-14-2007, 02:13 AM    (permalink
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So Jared Allen has a down year and he is overrated? Then what do you call Dwight Freeney's 5.5 sacks?
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Old 07-14-2007, 08:50 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by kmartin575 View Post
So Jared Allen has a down year and he is overrated? Then what do you call Dwight Freeney's 5.5 sacks?
hes going by the the type of sack. if it was broken down blocking ,etc
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:00 AM    (permalink
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Trevor Pryce was so underrated last year it wasn't even funny, the fact he wasn't a pro bowler makes the pro bowl a complete joke.
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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Underrated:
Leonard Little
he'll never get the right publicity anymore after that drunk driving killing.
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:37 AM    (permalink
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Meh...KC Joyner is a tool. Theres alot more to being a DE than just pass rushing. While Dumerville and Anderson are great situational pass rushers, they both need to work on their run stuffing abilities.

Furthermore, his "stats" don't illustrate the differences in schemes and how that effects a player's responsibilities which could effect his "stats".

It also fails to consider the amount of help said DEs have in terms of pass rush. I love Pryce and feel he is underrated, however, it has to be noted that he played on a very talented Ravens team that has plenty of other of players that demand attention. Same can be said with Anderson.

Who does Will Smith have? He IS the NO pass rush.


Basically what Im trying to say is...stats are worthless. Watch the game. The film never lies.
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Meh...KC Joyner is a tool. Theres alot more to being a DE than just pass rushing. While Dumerville and Anderson are great situational pass rushers, they both need to work on their run stuffing abilities.

Furthermore, his "stats" don't illustrate the differences in schemes and how that effects a player's responsibilities which could effect his "stats".

It also fails to consider the amount of help said DEs have in terms of pass rush. I love Pryce and feel he is underrated, however, it has to be noted that he played on a very talented Ravens team that has plenty of other of players that demand attention. Same can be said with Anderson.

Who does Will Smith have? He IS the NO pass rush.


Basically what Im trying to say is...stats are worthless. Watch the game. The film never lies.
The article is just about pass rushing, not being an all round DE.
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:46 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Meh...KC Joyner is a tool. Theres alot more to being a DE than just pass rushing. While Dumerville and Anderson are great situational pass rushers, they both need to work on their run stuffing abilities.

Furthermore, his "stats" don't illustrate the differences in schemes and how that effects a player's responsibilities which could effect his "stats".

It also fails to consider the amount of help said DEs have in terms of pass rush. I love Pryce and feel he is underrated, however, it has to be noted that he played on a very talented Ravens team that has plenty of other of players that demand attention. Same can be said with Anderson.

Who does Will Smith have? He IS the NO pass rush.


Basically what Im trying to say is...stats are worthless. Watch the game. The film never lies.
PASS RUSHING ONLY

and Pryce is 1 of the best talents on the Ravens.
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24cadillac24 View Post
The article is just about pass rushing, not being an all round DE.
I understand that, but you know people will misinterpret it as "who's the better de" regardless.

My main problem with his stats is regardless of how precise he tries to make it, it will never tell the whole story. Scheme is a big part of the game, and it throws scheme out the window. Mark Andersen's responsibilities are very different to a guy like Will Smith. Andersen just has to shoot up the field and cause disruption. Smith needs to hold his gap against the run while maintaining a decent pass rush, coupled with facing double teams on every play.

Im just not a fan of metrics at all. You can't make statistical sense out of football. This isn't baseball. Football is too interdependent of a sport for anyone to make statistical sense out of it.
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:54 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remix 6 View Post
PASS RUSHING ONLY

and Pryce is 1 of the best talents on the Ravens.
My point is, it doesn't make sense to compare a situational pass rusher (like Dumerville) or a guy who never gets doubled (like Pryce) to a guy like Will Smith.

These stats also don't take into consideration the fatigue factor involved. Will Smith plays the whole game while guys like Andersen and Dumerville come in with fresh legs and takes advantage of going against fatigued players. Its not fair to compare.

Basically, its an unfair comparison. Put Will Smith on the Ravens, or Bears, and I guarantee you his "stats" would go up. His sack totals would definately be higher. Its no coincidence that Pryce's #s shot up after he left Denver. He has alot more help in Baltimore compared to Denver. Metrics dont factor that in.
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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Jared Allen

Tackles - 77

Sacks - 7.5

Int - 1

Forced Fumbles - 3

Fumbles Recovered - 6

Pass Def - 10

His sacks went down but he had is best all around year ever and that was with out any help at DT.
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Old 07-14-2007, 11:01 AM    (permalink
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Overrated = Dwight Freeney
Underrated = Aaron Schobel
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Old 07-14-2007, 11:24 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
My point is, it doesn't make sense to compare a situational pass rusher (like Dumerville) or a guy who never gets doubled (like Pryce) to a guy like Will Smith.

These stats also don't take into consideration the fatigue factor involved. Will Smith plays the whole game while guys like Andersen and Dumerville come in with fresh legs and takes advantage of going against fatigued players. Its not fair to compare.

Basically, its an unfair comparison. Put Will Smith on the Ravens, or Bears, and I guarantee you his "stats" would go up. His sack totals would definately be higher. Its no coincidence that Pryce's #s shot up after he left Denver. He has alot more help in Baltimore compared to Denver. Metrics dont factor that in.
im pretty sure he looked at the games and judged..so if it was double verse 1on1..he would say it
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Old 07-14-2007, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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Umm, if Mark Anderson has 5 of his 13 sacks as non individual effort sacks he should be in the overrated section. That's over 25 percent of his production not being a direct result of his own effort.
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Old 07-14-2007, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
My point is, it doesn't make sense to compare a situational pass rusher (like Dumerville) or a guy who never gets doubled (like Pryce) to a guy like Will Smith.

These stats also don't take into consideration the fatigue factor involved. Will Smith plays the whole game while guys like Andersen and Dumerville come in with fresh legs and takes advantage of going against fatigued players. Its not fair to compare.

Basically, its an unfair comparison. Put Will Smith on the Ravens, or Bears, and I guarantee you his "stats" would go up. His sack totals would definately be higher. Its no coincidence that Pryce's #s shot up after he left Denver. He has alot more help in Baltimore compared to Denver. Metrics dont factor that in.

we he was hurt in devner the last couple years...before that he was an allpro in denver so to me he just got back to being healthy
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Old 07-14-2007, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
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Not really sure I'd say KVB is underrated, because while I believe indepth stats show he was one of the better all round pass rushing DE's last season when you consider all things and not just sacks (which are an overrated stat in some regards, not as much as INT's though), he's still a pretty one dimensional player and you've gotta expect more sacks from a guy like that.
KVB is one dimensional? He was top 5 in tackles for 4-3 DE's. Now I can guess where this conversation may be headed...."he takes himself out of plays a lot with wide pass rushes". That's true....and it is with many of the top pass rushers. Jevon did it all the time.

If anything, I think that's mostly on the DC. KVB doesn't do it all the time, I imagine it's all about what he's told to run that play. Surely it's not all ad libbing.

I looked up some QB pressure #'s, and KVB was up near the top last year just to get back to pass rushing talk again.

KVB had so little help from the other side of the line last year. We went through a ton of scrub, reject DE's.
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Old 07-14-2007, 01:48 PM    (permalink
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I don't like the mention of situational pass-rushers. It's so much easier to rush the QB when it's third and 5+ and you don't have to focus on the run at all. I don't think Anderson's underrated, merely a situational pass rusher who knows the pass is coming, and can be hell-bent on going after the QB.
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Old 07-14-2007, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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BBD is one of the few people who hates metrics for football like I do.
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Old 07-14-2007, 04:31 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TACKLE View Post
Overrated = Dwight Freeney
Underrated = Aaron Schobel
Dwight Freeney is not overrated as a passrusher. Heck I don't even think he's overrated as a player anymore since he's getting Michael Vick treatment (everyone calling him overrated).
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