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Old 07-14-2007, 08:49 PM    (permalink
NYGIANTSFAN_UK
 
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Default The Lions draft....

Is it just me, but does anyone else think they done absolutely terrible considering they had 6 first day picks?

They didn't properly address their biggest needs for me in MLB and CB, despite being an absolute beast CJ doesn't help them at all, come on if anything at all, all it done for them was give them more options in the slot. They struggled and still managed 4000 passing yards yet go for a reciever? Hmmm pretty weird.

In the second round they make a friggin dumb move trading with Buffalo when guys like Chris Houston and David Harris were there and would have helped them a ton. They then draft a QB that they could have gotten later on and decide that they want to change his throwing mechanics. If Stanton was a 5th round pick this might have made sense, I mean why would you use a second rounder on this guy and then treat him as a developmental prospect?

The only really agreeable pick for me was Alama-Francis the DE out of Hawaii, despite still not having addressed their top two needs by then, DE was still a need and they made a reasonable pick their, however I think they could have done better with guys like Marcus McCauley still out there then.

Then the most laughable pick for me. Gerald Alexander. No way was this guy worth a second and if they wanted a safety I could think of several guys out there with better value than him. Aaron Rouse, John Wendling, Sabby Piscitelli, Michael Johnson to name a few. Even MLB and someone like Buster Davis would have made a hell of a lot more sense.


To me this draft is enough evidence to suggest why they will continue to struggle. They went in needing a franchise QB, MLB and CB. QB wise they came out with a 'developmental guy' (in their eyes) in the second round, COME ON!

They went in needing a MLB. The second rated guy at the position was on the board TWICE when they were on the clock and they passed for a developmental QB who if they really wanted still could have gotten later if they wanted him that much.

They needed a decent corner to help replace the injury prone crap they currently have. They got AJ friggin Davis and passed up on the chance of drafting one of three potential studs (Houston, Wright, McCauley).

Basically what I'm saying is only the Lions could have four picks over the first two rounds and still become a worst team.
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Old 07-14-2007, 09:24 PM    (permalink
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I would've felt like arguing this like.. 3 Months ago...
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Old 07-14-2007, 09:31 PM    (permalink
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my whole thing was, at some point when are you gonna stop drafting WR's even if they are the bpa, at some point you gotta look at what you need...would they take another one next year if some guy was too good to pass up as well? i doubt calvin makes them go from 2 wins to playoff team, but thats just me...
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

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Old 07-14-2007, 09:33 PM    (permalink
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John Wendling went in the 6th and Michael Johnson in the 7th, I doubt they were considered better value than Alexander by too many NFL teams.
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Old 07-14-2007, 09:34 PM    (permalink
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They should have traded with Tampa and taken Gaines...

If they had just taken Gaines or Thomas, no matter which they took, the Browns would have taken Calvin Johnson (I have some inside info.)

That leaves the question, would the Browns have came away with Johnson and Quinn in the same draft or just Johnson?

That one move could have drastically changed the draft.
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Old 07-14-2007, 09:37 PM    (permalink
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There is no way the Browns would have taken Calvin Johnson, which would have been one of the biggest shocks of any draft in years...rivaling the later Ted Ginn at 9...is Johnson great value? Yes, no one denies this.

But to pass up on Quinn, Peterson, and Thomas at 3 for another WR???? No way they were gonna take CJ. Not in a million bazillion years.
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Old 07-14-2007, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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Calvin Johnson isn't Just "Another WR".. The Lions traded up for these guys, so obviously there's something about them that they liked. They're all "Rod Marinelli" kind of players, hard workers, team players.. They fit our defense..

I really didn't like the Drew Stanton pick though.
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Lions WMD View Post
Calvin Johnson isn't Just "Another WR".. The Lions traded up for these guys, so obviously there's something about them that they liked. They're all "Rod Marinelli" kind of players, hard workers, team players.. They fit our defense..

I really didn't like the Drew Stanton pick though.
Certainly some of the picks were more system fits than anything. A guy can be the best athlete and hitter in the world but if he doesn't fit your scheme he's doing you no good.
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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Default Lions draft

I'll say that CJ is a beast.
I'll say you make valid points.
I'll say you are right and you are wrong.
I was with you on Thomas. I jumped ship on Gaines Adams.
I actually participated in a National Mock draft and Calvin was the #1 pick.
I chose Thomas because no one would trade up. The best offer I got to trade was to get the #004 and #035 from Tampa for the #002 and the #066.
002) I select Joe Thomas LT; actual pick was the best player in the draft.
020) I trade up to take Aaron Ross CB; actual pick Lions trade down and select Stanton QB. Worst pick in the draft hands down.
Lions then acquire two more players in the second in a series of moves they grab Ikaika Alama-Francis who i liked but then they get Alexander who they could have grabbed later.
In the third at 066 I got Durant MLB to address the MLB spot. The Lions got Baldwin MLB in the fifth.
To round out my draft I got
Trent Edwards QB
David Clowney WR
Brandon Conndren S
Melvinn Bullitt S
I failed to grab a DE.
The Lions finished the draft with some talented guys. They grabbed AJ Davis & Manuel Ramirez
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
my whole thing was, at some point when are you gonna stop drafting WR's even if they are the bps, at some point you gotta look at what you need is...would they take another one next year if some guy was too good to pass up as well? i doubt calvin makes them go from 2 wins to playoff team, but thats just me...
its not our decision
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:29 PM    (permalink
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It's absolutely true that they catered to Mike Martz and took the offensive players he wanted. After that, they counted on their coaching staff to identify D guys who were undervalued.

After research on the four defensive players they took after Stanton, you can see that Marinelli et al had a clear plan on the guys they targeted, in their opinion they all have great character and fit the scheme.

This was admittedly a big risk and if none of the D players (Alama-Francis, Alexander, A.J. Davis, Johnny Baldwin) become anything then it turns into a major flop of a draft. Although, if CJ and Stanton and just one of those D players were to become quality starters, then I guess it might not look so bad.

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my whole thing was, at some point when are you gonna stop drafting WR's
Agreed. I would say that point is when you are 100% convinced that your WR corps is totally set. Last year the Lions didn't have that. They had one true threat and one excellent posession WR. Roy was double-teamed at all times and the Lions were unable to run a lot of what Martz wanted to do. So, to me the mistake was not drafting CJ, but drafting Mike Williams and Charles Rogers.

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Old 07-14-2007, 10:35 PM    (permalink
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Personally, my belief is that the Lions will try to outscore all their opponents and then play enough defense to get by.
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by simms2clayton View Post
There is no way the Browns would have taken Calvin Johnson, which would have been one of the biggest shocks of any draft in years...rivaling the later Ted Ginn at 9...is Johnson great value? Yes, no one denies this.

But to pass up on Quinn, Peterson, and Thomas at 3 for another WR???? No way they were gonna take CJ. Not in a million bazillion years.
... Like I said I have some inside info you can debate it all you want with me, Savage even hinted at it when asked if he was locked on Thomas before the draft and he said something along the lines of "There was a certain situation where we would take Joe Thomas and it happened" AKA Russel and Johnson going 1 and 2.

From someone inside with the Browns I was told if CJ or Russell was there, there was no doubt that we were drafting them.
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:37 PM    (permalink
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CJ was the right move. Joe Thomas would've helped them but OT was no bigger need than WR, and CJ was definitely higher on every team's board than JT. Russell would've been a better pick if both were available, but being that he wasn't CJ was too good to pass up. They would regret taking Gaines since CJ is the best WR to come in the draft since Moss, even though Gaines is a need filler. 1st round was fine, their 2nd round and beyond I thought was very mediocre.

If you stick to BPA then you are a lot better off. Most teams, if not all probably had their board's top 3 like this:
1-CJ or JR
2-JR or CJ
3-Thomas

Cleveland had it JR then CJ then Thomas then AD I know, and Oakland I think did too. (Brady Quinn was not that high on boards I don't think, but teams were probably willing to reach for him since he was a franchise QB prospect which weighs heavier than a good RB or DE, etc. in other words, i think Oakland would've taken Quinn over Thomas or Peterson b/c of need)
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:37 PM    (permalink
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Personally, my belief is that the Lions will try to outscore all their opponents and then play enough defense to get by.
If their offensive line holds up they are going to have an insane offense.
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Old 07-14-2007, 11:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LionSmack View Post
It's absolutely true that they catered to Mike Martz and took the offensive players he wanted. After that, they counted on their coaching staff to identify D guys who were undervalued.

After research on the four defensive players they took after Stanton, you can see that Marinelli et al had a clear plan on the guys they targeted, in their opinion they all have great character and fit the scheme.

This was admittedly a big risk and if none of the D players (Alama-Francis, Alexander, A.J. Davis, Johnny Baldwin) become anything then it turns into a major flop of a draft. Although, if CJ and Stanton and just one of those D players were to become quality starters, then I guess it might not look so bad.


Agreed. I would say that point is when you are 100% convinced that your WR corps is totally set. Last year the Lions didn't have that. They had one true threat and one excellent posession WR. Roy was double-teamed at all times and the Lions were unable to run a lot of what Martz wanted to do. So, to me the mistake was not drafting CJ, but drafting Mike Williams and Charles Rogers.
no, you cant say the charles rogers pick was bad, only in hingsight...at the time, it was a great move, they need a WR badly at the time, and he had an excellent college career and all signs led to a great NFL career, you cant knock them for taking him at the time...


but i can knock them this year, as much as CJ might be cant miss...do they do the same thing next year, if when they pick its a WR they just cannot pass up, if CJ doesnt turn out to what is expected, or at some point do you focus on a team need as a whole instead of bpa...


because whether or not their WR corps was where it needed to be, it wasnt the #1 team need, nor was it worth a #2 pick where you already have one pro bowler present...even if CJ ends up being what most thought, the o line still needs drastic help, and the defense could use more playmakers...

i think looking back everyone is gonna look at all the defensive stars from the 1st rd detroit coulda had, regardless of how CJ plays...he cant protect the qb, and he cant tackle, both were areas they had trouble in...
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Old 07-15-2007, 01:27 AM    (permalink
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The Lions addressed the O-Line in Free Agency, we signed Edwin Mulitalo, and also traded for George Foster. Not to mention, we drafted Manuel Ramirez. I think we found solid enough solutions, for at least this season.

Why didn't we take Joe Thomas? We would've been picking a RT at the #2 spot. We would've then been paying our Right Tackle top LT money. We re-signed Jeff Backus to a 6 Year/$40 Million deal last year to play Left Tackle for us. We traded for George Foster. We also have Jon Scott who showed promise last season.

Why didn't we draft Gaines Adams? We signed Dewayne White from Tampa Bay during Free Agency to a 5 Year/$29 Million deal. We re-signed Kalimba Edwards to a 5 Year/$20 Million deal last year. That's enough money tied up to our DE's.

About the CB's.. I would've liked to address it earlier. But, Fernando Bryant has been good in our system, while healthy. We signed Travis Fisher who has experience in a Cover 2 System. We've also spent Day One picks on Stanley Wilson and Keith Smith in recent years, with Stanley Wilson coming on strong at the end of last season. We picked Gerald Alexander in Round 2, who should be a good fit as a Cover 2 Cornerback if needed.. I think he's going to play Safety for us though, at least this season.

MLB, eh.. The team seams to love Paris Lennon.. Teddy Lehman is capable at MLB in the system.

Just because they didn't get recognizable names, doesn't mean they did bad. After all, people had Brandon Siler projected to go much, much earlier than he did in the actual draft.. Are all 32 teams stupid for passing on him so many times? Teams see flaws in guys, and teams see things in players that they love. It's just a matter of the right player going to the right situation.
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Old 07-15-2007, 01:31 AM    (permalink
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Personally, my belief is that the Lions will try to outscore all their opponents and then play enough defense to get by.
Like what the Pack and Queens did in '04
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Old 07-15-2007, 08:28 AM    (permalink
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I would've felt like arguing this like.. 3 Months ago...
I brought it up again since lately the Lions have been coming out saying how they want to change Stanton's mechanics, which to me sounds like the guy is just a developmental prospect and you don't spend a second rounder on that type of guy especially when better talent who would have helped more was available.

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John Wendling went in the 6th and Michael Johnson in the 7th, I doubt they were considered better value than Alexander by too many NFL teams.
Maybe true on Johnson, but Wendling and even Josh Gattis was higher on a lot of draft boards at S.

A lot of this means nothing now, but the Lions recent comments on Stanton indicate otherwise.

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Old 07-15-2007, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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The Calvin Johnson pick was a great one, he was way too good to pass on and the pick forms the fearsome trio of Roy, CJ and Furrey, with Furrey moving to his ideal position in the slot. But while it wasnt horrible draft I cant say Im a big fan of it. Stanton was a pick I was fine with, he gives them the young QB they need. Francis Im lukewarm on I like him as a player and had a feeling he'd go in the 2nd round but I felt like Detroit needed a pure edge rusher and could have found a better fit than Francis, who also may not be able to contribute immediately. Gerald Alexander I had barely heard of and to trade up for him in the 2nd seemed like a reach, especially considering safety was not a major position of concern for the Lions. On the draft, they failed to effectively fill needs at CB, MLB and on the OL as well. It was OK draft but certainly not a great one either.
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Old 07-15-2007, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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If Detroit drafts a few offensive and defensive linemen next year as well as a MLB then it won't be so terrible that they didn't do that this year. You can't fill all your needs in one draft, you only have so many draft picks and only about 2 or 3 are for guys expected to solidly contribute in year one.
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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They're still at the very least a couple years away from seriously competing, going BPA was smart.

I like their D-line a lot, actually; if Rogers plays well, he and Redding are a great combo. Their ends could easily be contributors too. If they get smart and rebuild that secondary in the next 1 or 2 offseasons, and get a MLB, that could be a very competitive defense.

Everyone knows the offense will take off. You never know, Lions could be a playoff team down the line.
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Old 07-15-2007, 08:33 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TheChampIsHere View Post
Gerald Alexander I had barely heard of and to trade up for him in the 2nd seemed like a reach, especially considering safety was not a major position of concern for the Lions.
Eh. Kenoy Kennedy played like dairyaire last year and isn't fit for a Cover 2 Defense.. He'll eventually be gone, Daniel Bullocks will switch to SS and Gerald Alexander should take over at FS.
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Old 07-15-2007, 08:40 PM    (permalink
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I brought it up again since lately the Lions have been coming out saying how they want to change Stanton's mechanics, which to me sounds like the guy is just a developmental prospect and you don't spend a second rounder on that type of guy especially when better talent who would have helped more was available.
Its not like he has to start this year, he's got atleast 2 years until the pressure is on.
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Old 07-15-2007, 08:52 PM    (permalink
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no, you cant say the charles rogers pick was bad, only in hingsight...at the time, it was a great move, they need a WR badly at the time, and he had an excellent college career and all signs led to a great NFL career, you cant knock them for taking him at the time...
Any pick that turns out as badly as CRog counts as a mistake. It's a bottom-line game. Saying he was great in college doesn't get the Lions any more wins over the last 4 seasons. Now, some mistakes are larger than others, and Mike Williams was definitely a bigger and dumber mistake, but nevertheless.


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but i can knock them this year, as much as CJ might be cant miss...do they do the same thing next year, if when they pick its a WR they just cannot pass up, if CJ doesnt turn out to what is expected, or at some point do you focus on a team need as a whole instead of bpa...
I think they were convinced (or at least Martz was) that a true #2 receiver was still a strong need, because of what I mentioned in my previous post. Or at any rate, the combination of position need and the great value of CJ made it the right move to them.


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because whether or not their WR corps was where it needed to be, it wasnt the #1 team need, nor was it worth a #2 pick where you already have one pro bowler present...even if CJ ends up being what most thought, the o line still needs drastic help, and the defense could use more playmakers...
If CJ turns out to be what everyone thinks, then there's no question at all it was the right pick. The conventional wisdom on draft picks hinges on the fact that no one knows exactly how they will turn out. If a player is a guaranteed superstar, they could never be the wrong pick, period.

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i think looking back everyone is gonna look at all the defensive stars from the 1st rd detroit coulda had, regardless of how CJ plays...he cant protect the qb, and he cant tackle, both were areas they had trouble in...
I agree that CJ will have added pressure on him due to this, but you can't say "regardless of how he plays." If he comes out and has a Randy Moss-like rookie year, if the Lions offense finally becomes what it looks like it could be, then those questions will vanish in the wind.
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