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Old 07-22-2007, 10:06 PM    (permalink
Number 10
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller View Post
Number 10,

I know your fair and honest in your assessments. The only reason I brought Eli up was because I am seriously frustrated.

I know not here, but I hear that Ben isn't a top 10 QB and he's horribly overrated and average.

I just don't see how his 2 seasons, that he went to the AFCC, and Superbowl, granted he did bad in the superbowl.. he should be given credit. Yet I hear how either Eli or Philip have outplayed him. I have yet to see it. I know I'm a steeler fan and will defend my player to the death, but frankly it's aggrivating.

I used the "Injury Card" Last year and all I heard was how Ben was overrated.

Yet It's used in Eli's case all year.

I understand you lost Toomer and Pettigout. We lost Starks, Simmons, Hartings, Ward, Porter, Harrison, Wilson, Clark, Polamalu, Kreider.

Theres more I just can't think of them.. But I still hear he's overrated and I'm making excuses.

I understand Rivers had a great season. But he's still only had one, and some think he's top 10 with little more than 1 season showing.

I just don't understand how Eli can use something Giants fans bash other people. "Pulling out the injury card" tends to be an excuse for everyone but Eli.

Rivers WR's are sub-par... Ben lost his #1/#2 last year. Hell Brady hasn't had a #1 or #2 to work with period. Eli has Plaxico.. atleast he had his #1 all season. He lost his LT.. I know Ben lost his C/RG and RT.

I just don't see why Eli gets the advantage of using that excuse.

I need to be up for work in 7 hours, so I'll say this then be off to bed. This is my deal with the whole Eli-Rivers-Ben debate.

I said, after the 2005 season...AKA Big Ben Mania, that I was going to wait until the end of the 2007 season to wait to rank these QBs. I stand here in July of 2007 and I will give myself a little pat on the back because I feel that accurately ranking these 3 amongst themselves and amongst the rest of the NFL MUST wait until the end of this season, their 4th.

They have all had their struggles, they have all had their success, and they have all faced different kinds of adversity (well, maybe not Rivers, haha). Ben got knocked around last year big time and had to deal with his fair shair of injuries. Eli lost his starting LT and most reliable WR on top of playing under arguably the worst playcaller in the NFL. And again, that isn't just my opinion, Kevin Gilbride said so himself. I'm not knocking Rivers here....but he hasn't been hurt and he didn't have to deal with the kind of injuries/lack of brains on the coaching staff that Ben/Eli did.

This will be a telling year for these three because they have all had a few NFL offseasons to fully prepare and work with their new teammates on top of grasping the NFL life. They have all had game experience, BIG game experience if you think about it. I am trying my hardest to stay away from the "he is better than him but not better than him" type post because it just isn't fair at this point. The Giants have put WAY too much on Eli's shoulders early on in his career. Obviously he could have gotten his career off to a much better start, but he has led this team to the playoffs in both years as a starter (which hasn't been done since 1990) and has thrown for almost 50 TDs and 7,000+ yards. He has his issues to work out but for God's sake, I understand the New York limelight combined with being a #1 pick reaps high expectations, but he is progressing like a normal QB. He isn't, nor do I think he will ever be an icon like his brother, but I think he could and will be the best QB out of this class.

Time will tell, and only time will tell. NFL fans, especially young ones, rush to judgements to an extent that makes me sick. People are literally TRASHING Eli because he doesn't lead like Peyton in his 2nd year as a starter on a team full of ego-maniacs!!!! It's absurd if you think about it.

By saying Ben and Rivers were thrown into much easier positions early on is not an insult to their level of play. Both of them have done great to this point in their careers and I think either one of them could easily be the best QB to come out of this class. I simply think neither of them have seen the adversity Eli has and I feel that with both of them losing their coaching staffs will tell us all a lot about them. Again, at the end of the 2007 season, we will know A LOT more, more than the first 3 years of their careers combined have brought us.
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Last edited by Number 10 : 07-23-2007 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:34 PM    (permalink
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i thinking jenkins will come back from being a bust
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:42 PM    (permalink
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i thinking jenkins will come back from being a bust
No way, that whole offense gets a makeover in the next 3 years. Only Jerious Norwood survives.
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:13 AM    (permalink
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I need to be up for work in 7 hours, so I'll say this then be off to bed. This is my deal with the whole Eli-Rivers-Ben debate.

I said, after the 2005 season...AKA Big Ben Mania, that I was going to wait until the end of the 2007 season to wait to rank these QBs. I stand here in July of 2007 and I will give myself a little pat on the back because I feel that accurately ranking these 3 amongst themselves and amongst the rest of the NFL MUST wait until the end of this season, their 4th.

They have all had their struggles, they have all had their success, and they have all faced different kinds of adversity (well, maybe not Rivers, haha). Ben got knocked around last year big time and had to deal with his fair shair of injuries. Eli lost his starting LT and most reliable WR on top of playing under arguably the worst playcaller in the NFL. And again, that isn't just my opinion, Kevin Gilbride said so himself. I'm not knocking Rivers here....but he hasn't been hurt and he didn't have to deal with the kind of injuries/lack of brains on the coaching staff that Ben/Eli did.

This will be a telling year for these three because they have all had a few NFL offseasons to fully prepare and work with their new teammates on top of grasping the NFL life. They have all had game experience, BIG game experience if you think about it. I am trying my hardest to stay away from the "he is better than him but not better than him" type post because it just isn't fair at this point. The Giants have put WAY too much on Eli's shoulders early on in his career. Obviously he could have gotten his career off to a much better start, but he has led this team to the playoffs in both years as a starter (which hasn't been done since 1990) and has thrown for almost 50 TDs and 7,000+ yards. He has his issues to work out but for God's sake, I understand the New York limelight combined with being a #1 pick reaps high expectations, but he is progressing like a normal QB. He isn't, nor do I think he will ever be an icon like his brother, but I think he could and will be the best QB out of this class.

Time will tell, and only time will tell. NFL fans, especially young ones, rush to judgements to an extent that makes me sick. People are literally TRASHING Eli because he doesn't lead like Peyton in his 2nd year as a starter on a team full of ego-maniacs!!!! It's absurd if you think about it.

By saying Ben and Rivers were thrown into much easier positions early on is not an insult to their level of play. Both of them have done great to this point in their careers and I think either one of them could easily be the best QB to come out of this class. I simply think neither of them have seen the adversity Eli has and I feel that with both of them losing their coaching staffs will tell us all a lot about them. Again, at the end of the 2007 season, we will know A LOT more, more than the first 3 years of their careers combined have brought us.

Just in response to the bolded statements, because I don't want to get into a Ben-Eli-Rivers debate, since it weill never end, but you're wrong there. Rivers was injured, not only going into the season finale, but going into the playoffs, and it was a possibility Volek would've started the AFC Championship game had they made it. And for his receivers and weapons being injured, Both Jackson, and Parker, his #1 and #2 guys (excluding Gate and LT) were injured throughout the year, Parker most notably as he was Rivers' go to guy. As far as lack of brains coaching, there has been plenty of that in SD's playoff apperance, see Cameron's entire second half of play, where he refused to give the ball to the best player on the team.

And as for adversity, half of (I'm reluctant to say, due to lack of a plethora of fans) "Charger Nation" was down on him because they'd have preferred Brees. One of the top stories of the offseason was them letting Drew walk, and how much of a mistake it was, and for Philip to show they weren't wrong in their decision is a big deal, not to mention the adversity he faced during the season, as he showed he had the guts and had what it takes to come back when the game was on the line, and he was the one to rally them. (Cincy, Denver, Seattle, etc.)
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Old 07-25-2007, 08:48 AM    (permalink
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Eli was put in a lot of tough situations due to the poor defense. The team was playing from behind a lot, so they would throw Eli out on the field and force him to chuck the ball, and his stats are indicative of that. Unfortunately, for Eli, the opposing defense would attempt to shut down the big play in the passing game, and rather let Tiki have his 4 or 5 yards. This would run the clock and prevent a quick touchdown. That, IMO, is why Tiki had such a great season, while Eli stuggled.

Eli's stats last year - 3244 yards, 57.7 % comp. , 24 TDs, 18 INTs, 77 rating.

Those stats are far, far from those of a bust. He has been improving every season, busts don't improve. Whoever brought Eli up in this thread was being a wise guy and did it on purpose to infuriate Giant fans such as myself and Number 10. Bravo sir, you have succeeded.
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Old 07-25-2007, 09:05 AM    (permalink
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Or.. Whisenhunt, Cam Cameron, huffy.. Which one was good enough to get promoted to a HC.. 2/3 did, one got fired....before the season even ended. Great job by both franchises in getting two sick OCs in my mind. One big disadvantage is our players didnt like both coordinators, and that our OC sucked in situational playcalling. Factor that with inconsistency from Eli, injuries, and perhaps Tiki's personality, which did impact the locker room, I am suprised Eli basically replicated the same stats from his first full season. I would have expected Alex Smith type numbers with that much chaos.
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:22 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ricky bobby View Post
Eli was put in a lot of tough situations due to the poor defense. The team was playing from behind a lot, so they would throw Eli out on the field and force him to chuck the ball, and his stats are indicative of that. Unfortunately, for Eli, the opposing defense would attempt to shut down the big play in the passing game, and rather let Tiki have his 4 or 5 yards. This would run the clock and prevent a quick touchdown. That, IMO, is why Tiki had such a great season, while Eli stuggled.

Eli's stats last year - 3244 yards, 57.7 % comp. , 24 TDs, 18 INTs, 77 rating.

Those stats are far, far from those of a bust. He has been improving every season, busts don't improve. Whoever brought Eli up in this thread was being a wise guy and did it on purpose to infuriate Giant fans such as myself and Number 10. Bravo sir, you have succeeded.
Did you watch any Steelers games last year? People knock Ben for it, but he was in the same situation as Eli.
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