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Old 07-20-2007, 10:59 AM    (permalink
Scar
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This isn't even a discussion worth continuing. The evidence is massive. The evidence is damning. The charges are being brought by the United States of America. I highly suggest you read the charges and evidence brought against him, but I get the feeling you could watch me shoot someone between the eyes and you'd need a judge and jury to tell you that I'd murdered someone.
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Old 07-20-2007, 11:03 AM    (permalink
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What are you talking about? A "run-in" with the law is irrelevant if you didn't do anything wrong.
well tell that pacman.
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Old 07-20-2007, 11:07 AM    (permalink
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This isn't even a discussion worth continuing. The evidence is massive. The evidence is damning. The charges are being brought by the United States of America. I highly suggest you read the charges and evidence brought against him, but I get the feeling you could watch me shoot someone between the eyes and you'd need a judge and jury to tell you that I'd murdered someone.
Don't bother. Moses is too stubborn to ever admit he was wrong. He won't jump off the bandwagon until Vick goes to jail. Someone447 and Moses are the only ones left on the bandwagon. I kind of feel bad for them, it's kind of pathetic.
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Old 07-20-2007, 11:15 AM    (permalink
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Look, all my dogs have come from rescue shelters, I have done training with a number of them that needed to taught to stop aggressive habits caused by previous owners, so this issue hits real close to home for me.
Moses is an intelligent guy. I've seen that all over this forum. I don't mean to come across as belittling him. It's just come on, forget the animal rights tangents and fair trial textbooks and look at the facts. This is one of the most shut and sealed cases in history. There's no leg to stand on to try and defend Vick other than the same inane technicalities and loopholes that his lawyers will employ to try and get him off. Even if they find one that works, it'll never change what Vick has so painfully obviously done.
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Old 07-20-2007, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Scar View Post
Look, all my dogs have come from rescue shelters, I have done training with a number of them that needed to taught to stop aggressive habits caused by previous owners, so this issue hits real close to home for me.
Moses is an intelligent guy. I've seen that all over this forum. I don't mean to come across as belittling him. It's just come on, forget the animal rights tangents and fair trial textbooks and look at the facts. This is one of the most shut and sealed cases in history. There's no leg to stand on to try and defend Vick other than the same inane technicalities and loopholes that his lawyers will employ to try and get him off. Even if they find one that works, it'll never change what Vick has so painfully obviously done.
If only Johnny Cochrane was still alive . . . . .
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Old 07-20-2007, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ATLDirtyBirds View Post
Hold on there, just because he payed the girl off doesn't mean he's guilty. It means he just wanted to move on. By that logic, Kobe Bryant is a rapist.
That was a civil case too, I don't believe he got into trouble with the law. He simply paid off the girl, it's very similar to the Peyton Manning suit a few years back. A woman sued him claiming that Peyton "sexually harrassed" her but I think it was found out that he just mooned her in college.
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Old 07-20-2007, 11:58 AM    (permalink
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If only Johnny Cochrane was still alive...
Yeah, then Vick could use the Chewbacca Defense.
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Old 07-20-2007, 12:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ATLDirtyBirds View Post
Hold on there, just because he payed the girl off doesn't mean he's guilty. It means he just wanted to move on. By that logic, Kobe Bryant is a rapist.
Kobe admitted to having relations with her, he just said it was consensual. He paid her off to make it go away. There is a difference between the cases.
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Old 07-20-2007, 12:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Moses View Post
He used it to store jewellery in. Know your stuff before you comment.
Then why did he have to throw it away before going through a metal detector/security?

Again, if he wasn't putting himself in these positions, there wouldn't be issues. If you want to keep giving him the benefit of the doubt, that's fine. But this is now the fourth incident that has occurred that has brought a black eye/negative press on the league in some way, all because of his personal decisions.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jay View Post
Then why did he have to throw it away before going through a metal detector/security?

Again, if he wasn't putting himself in these positions, there wouldn't be issues. If you want to keep giving him the benefit of the doubt, that's fine. But this is now the fourth incident that has occurred that has brought a black eye/negative press on the league in some way, all because of his personal decisions.
Let me get this straight: you think Vick should be penalized because of an incident where he was cleared of any wrong-doing? Should T.O. be penalized because he runs his mouth and is a cancer to his team and in the league in general? No, because he's within his rights. If Vick isn't breaking the law, he shouldn't be suspended.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Scar View Post
Look, all my dogs have come from rescue shelters, I have done training with a number of them that needed to taught to stop aggressive habits caused by previous owners, so this issue hits real close to home for me.
Moses is an intelligent guy. I've seen that all over this forum. I don't mean to come across as belittling him. It's just come on, forget the animal rights tangents and fair trial textbooks and look at the facts. This is one of the most shut and sealed cases in history. There's no leg to stand on to try and defend Vick other than the same inane technicalities and loopholes that his lawyers will employ to try and get him off. Even if they find one that works, it'll never change what Vick has so painfully obviously done.
Scar,

First of all, nice change of topic after I proved you wrong on the water bottle incident. ;)

Maybe you're right about Vick having no legal leg to stand on in court. I don't know, the defence hasn't presented its argument yet. Further, it doesn't really matter for the situation right now. The fact is that there is a chance (as slim as it may be) that Vick is found innocent. Since that possibility remains, the league simply cannot suspend him.

The league isn't in a position to dictate justice. They know it and we know it. If Vick is cleared of these charges, they're not going to suspend him even if we all still think he did it. They'll punish him based on what the justice system convicts him of. Anything else would be an injustice.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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Don't bother. Moses is too stubborn to ever admit he was wrong. He won't jump off the bandwagon until Vick goes to jail. Someone447 and Moses are the only ones left on the bandwagon. I kind of feel bad for them, it's kind of pathetic.
If you don't mind me asking, what exactly was Moses wrong about, and what's this bandwagon you speak of? The way I remember it, a few of us pulled back on the reigns of a wild topic and injected a dose of reality for those who took a hypocritical stance on the matter. I don't recall any defending of Vick other than insisting that he be granted due process before we burned him at the stake. Only the most obedient of mass media consuming sheep choose to blindly skip this most elemental consideration. Speaking for myself, if anybody came away from my posts thinking that I in any way implied that I was backing Vick, they ought to brush up on their reading comprehension skills. I haven't read all of their posts on the subject, but I think 447 and Moses would say the same.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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If you don't mind me asking, what exactly was Moses wrong about, and what's this bandwagon you speak of? The way I remember it, a few of us pulled back on the reigns of a wild topic and injected a dose of reality for those who took a hypocritical stance on the matter. I don't recall any defending of Vick other than insisting that he be granted due process before we burned him at the stake. Only the most obedient of mass media consuming sheep choose to blindly skip this most elemental consideration. Speaking for myself, if anybody came away from my posts thinking that I in any way implied that I was backing Vick, they ought to brush up on their reading comprehension skills. I haven't read all of their posts on the subject, but I think 447 and Moses would say the same.
Yup. I'm not "backing" Vick, just saying that he deserves a fair trial just like every other U.S. citizen. On top of that, he deserves to be treated fairly be the league. That means not punishing him until it is clear that he did something to warrant a punishment.

If Vick is found guilty, Goodell can have a field day on him for all I care. He violated the league's rules and he should be punished for it.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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Maybe you're right about Vick having no legal leg to stand on in court. I don't know, the defence hasn't presented its argument yet. Further, it doesn't really matter for the situation right now. The fact is that there is a chance (as slim as it may be) that Vick is found innocent. Since that possibility remains, the league simply cannot suspend him.
But that's just it, the situation right now requires a response. There is a protest outside league headquarters as I type this. Falcons training camp is going to be an absolute circus if Vick is there. Everywhere he goes will be. Everything the league has done to clean up it's image in the last year has been washed away tenfold by the situation Michael Vick has gotten himself into. Even the association with the other persons involved in this if his "I didn't know about this, I was never there" ignorance excuse holds water is bad enough to strongly suggest he not come to work until it's all over. Suspending him wouldn't be going out on a limb, they've certainly suspended guys for less.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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But that's just it, the situation right now requires a response. There is a protest outside league headquarters as I type this. Falcons training camp is going to be an absolute circus if Vick is there. Everywhere he goes will be. Everything the league has done to clean up it's image in the last year has been washed away tenfold by the situation Michael Vick has gotten himself into. Even the association with the other persons involved in this if his "I didn't know about this, I was never there" ignorance excuse holds water is bad enough to strongly suggest he not come to work until it's all over. Suspending him wouldn't be going out on a limb, they've certainly suspended guys for less.
You can't just suspend guys for no reason or because he might have broke a law. What is hard to understand about that? There will be legal ramifications for the league if they do something like that.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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No reason? You've got the US Senate decrying Vick today! How much more detrimental to the league does the guy have to be? Federal Indictments simply aren't handed out without years of investigation and scads of evidence. It's not that he "might" have broken a law. He broke laws. Lots of them. There's no need to sit around to see if he falls into the 1% that manages to escapes sentencing on a technicality.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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No reason? You've got the US Senate decrying Vick today! How much more detrimental to the league does the guy have to be? Federal Indictments simply aren't handed out without years of investigation and scads of evidence. It's not that he "might" have broken a law. He broke laws. Lots of them. There's no need to sit around to see if he falls into the 1% that manages to escapes sentencing on a technicality.
Do you understand what would happen if he were suspended and then "escapes sentencing on a technicalilty"? Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. That's the American way.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:48 PM    (permalink
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Federal Indictments simply aren't handed out without years of investigation and scads of evidence.
Not that it matters, but that isn't even close to the truth.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:50 PM    (permalink
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Kobe admitted to having relations with her, he just said it was consensual. He paid her off to make it go away. There is a difference between the cases.


How? Vick payed the girl off to make it go away too. He didn't want it to continue.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:52 PM    (permalink
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Don't bother. Moses is too stubborn to ever admit he was wrong. He won't jump off the bandwagon until Vick goes to jail. Someone447 and Moses are the only ones left on the bandwagon. I kind of feel bad for them, it's kind of pathetic.

No one is on the Vick "bandwagon" atleast what I have come across. I haven't seen anyone defend dog-fighting. The only thing we are defending, is that it is his right to be innocent until proven guilty.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:52 PM    (permalink
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Here we go with idealism instead of common sense again...
He did these things. That's not even at issue here.
What the league can act upon is "conduct detrimental to the league." Tell me that Michael Vick has been a good thing for the NFL this week. Tell me that he's been a nonissue for the league this week. Tell me that he has been anything other than the biggest headache the league has endured since, well, ever.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:53 PM    (permalink
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Goodell CAN'T SUSPEND him right now. Pacman had multiple run - ins with the law and none of them were "dropped" or in Vick's bottle incident, deemed a mistake. Same with Henry, Tank and Jared Allen.

But really, if Goodell suspends Vick right now because of PETA; then basically all he is doing is caving into demands. The whole "conduct policy" is then flawed as Goodell was persuaded by a group to suspend a player. It would be ridiculous and if that .5% chance Vick is innoncent becomes 100%; do you realize the implications that sets?

I was trying to make an analogy, but the only thing that comes close to this if Bud Selig suspends Barry Bonds right now. Bonds may still get charged for tax evasion and if say, Selig just suspends him now and Bonds doesn't get indicted; how bad does this look? People will be pissed, Bonds will be pissed but most importantly, Bonds lawyers may be pissed.

I am willing to bet my left and right nut that Vick is going to be in jail. I do find him innoncent and I find dogfighting HORRIBLY sick. But you can't do it now.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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No one is on the Vick "bandwagon" atleast what I have come across. I haven't seen anyone defend dog-fighting. The only thing we are defending, is that it is his right to be innocent until proven guilty.
Vick said sorry to Blank. Why apologize if you're innocent?
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:56 PM    (permalink
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Vick said sorry to Blank. Why apologize if you're innocent?
For creating a scene? Are you honestly taking his apology as an admission of guilt?
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Philliez01 View Post
Goodell CAN'T SUSPEND him right now. Pacman had multiple run - ins with the law and none of them were "dropped" or in Vick's bottle incident, deemed a mistake. Same with Henry, Tank and Jared Allen.

But really, if Goodell suspends Vick right now because of PETA; then basically all he is doing is caving into demands. The whole "conduct policy" is then flawed as Goodell was persuaded by a group to suspend a player. It would be ridiculous and if that .5% chance Vick is innoncent becomes 100%; do you realize the implications that sets?

I was trying to make an analogy, but the only thing that comes close to this if Bud Selig suspends Barry Bonds right now. Bonds may still get charged for tax evasion and if say, Selig just suspends him now and Bonds doesn't get indicted; how bad does this look? People will be pissed, Bonds will be pissed but most importantly, Bonds lawyers may be pissed.

I am willing to bet my left and right nut that Vick is going to be in jail. I do find him innoncent and I find dogfighting HORRIBLY sick. But you can't do it now.
The thing is, Goddell wouldn't be suspending Vick because of what PETA is saying or doing. It would be based off Vick's image being bad for the league. What PETA is saying or doing is a side issue.
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