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Old 07-20-2007, 06:49 PM    (permalink
Jay
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Originally Posted by Moses View Post
So what are you arguing with me about?
I am simply responding to what you are saying. You are telling me that I am saying/implying things that I am not. It's pretty simple actually.
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Moses View Post
If he isn't punished by the American justice system, the NFL punishing him would be ridiculous. The NFL are not judges of guilt. They suspend players based on what the American justice system says people do. So if Vick is found innocent, there is no way he gets suspended.
Well being found innocent is certainly different than "escaping on a technicality" isn't it?
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Moses View Post
Are you comparing retail sales to this? I guess Vick missed his orientation at Walmart when they told him not to apologize or people would think he's guilty.
The ironic part is that Vick will be lucky if his next job is at Walmart at this point...

As far as the comparison, I think it was pretty straight forward. An apology is often seen as an admission of guilt. I simply sited one example.
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:29 PM    (permalink
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Well being found innocent is certainly different than "escaping on a technicality" isn't it?
It depends. What if the only witnesses who make these claims about Vick happen to be criminals who their nuts in the proverbial vice by the Feds, (see Davon Boddie) so they told them what they wanted to hear. Is that a "technicality"? Let's not presume guilt or innocence shall we?

As of last night I thought he was guilty as sin. Now that I read that Boddie is one of the witnesses, supposedly, that makes me question the validity of his testimony. It's pretty easy to point fingers and make allegations when you are looking at going away for a long time and the Feds are going to give you a deal in exchange for giving up the big guy they're going after. After all Boddie was thrown under the bus by Vick earlier, he could be just getting back at him to save his own behind.
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:38 PM    (permalink
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Regardless, Vick is going down with this attached to his name forever...

Just like OJ and murder and Barry Bonds and steroids.... He will always be guilty in the eyes of the people.
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Old 07-20-2007, 08:25 PM    (permalink
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No doubt; however, as it stands I think more patience should be displayed on the part of those who would hang Michael Vick in recompense for only what he is charged with. Right now the odds are he is guilty, but some of these responses are ridiculous.
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Old 07-20-2007, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jay View Post
That's not "getting off."

"Getting off" means he goes to trial and does what no one ever does: beats a federal rap. And again, even if he does that, there will be the local authorities to deal with.

I believe everything that 18 page Federal Indictment to be true the same way I believe everything the cops in Georgia have determined in the Chris Benoit case: that he killed his wife and his kid and then killed himself. Neither have had a judge or jury say otherwise, but it's a slam dunk.

Michael Vick is, at the very least, guilty of associating with the wrong people. This is something the NFL drills into their head at their Rookie Symposium, and very clearly many of these guys don't get it.

But at the same time, this isn't simply a case of a guy being guilty by association, though. Vick has claimed he was "never" there, when he has been linked to being there on many, many, many occasions. He can not plead ignorance. It can not and will not happen or work. He was every bit a part in all of this. The evidence is indisputable, the same way it is indisputable in the case of Chris Benoit.

But again, I am going to just let it play out. We're on what, day four after the indictment? A week from today, ****s gonna hit the fan and when this thing actually goes to trial, it's going to be slam dunk.

And again, you are misunderstanding the meaning behind "innocent until proven guilty." That simply means that the government/cops can not dictate a punishment until a decision is made by a judge and jury, and that they are to assume he is innocent until it is proven otherwise.

It if you want to carry that over into your personal opinion, that is certainly your right. But it is evidence is very clearly not in the favor of your opinion...
You, sir, are the master of the straw man argument(The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed. )


You do realize that witnesses that are testifying to get a reduced sentence aren't the most trustworthy. That is what I have been saying the entire time. It is impossible to say he is guilty without knowing the situations of the witnesses. Does it look like he is guilty? Of course it does, but we know nothing about the witnesses.

I would like to see a cite that says the federal government wins 95%+ of their cases. He has much more than a one in a million chance, even if that was the average odds of someone beating a federal rap, Vick is not a normal person. He has much, much more money than most people, and money gives him a much better chance.

I don't think the NFL should do anything to him. However, I would have absolutely no problem with the Falcons suspending him. Regardless if he is guilty or not, this will negatively affect the teams performance, which is more than enough reason for the TEAM to do something. I don't think it is enough for the NFL to do something, but the team needs to do whatever it can to win, which would involve keeping the Vick circus away.
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Old 07-20-2007, 08:53 PM    (permalink
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Goodell can suspend him if he likes. The NFL is a business, and if someone was indicted by the feds they could certainly lose their job for it. The only thing is, if he is acquitted, all of a sudden, Falcons fans, bitter about losing a season for no reason, will be very angry with Goodell. It would just not be a great situation. If it's settled out of court in time for Goodell to act, I think he'll suspend him. If it goes to court, he might wait it out. This is very different from PacMan. PacMan has repeatedly done stupid things that are against the law. This is Vick's first. The water bottle is a non-issue. flipping off Saints fans(yes they were saints fans) for calling him racial slurs is not against the law.
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Old 07-20-2007, 09:41 PM    (permalink
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So "getting off" is going to make him innocent? Really. Wow.

I guess Chris Benoit is innocent then. I mean, a judge and a jury didn't tell me that he killed his wife and kid, all we really have is circumstantial evidence being fed to us by cops...

What I meant was Vick's laywers could easily take down these witnesses, espically if they are all Davon Boddies.
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Old 07-20-2007, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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I believe he should be suspended for a few games right now, w/o being proven guilty. Yes, Moses, I know you think its rediculous, but right now he put himself in a bad spot, based on some bad choices. Now the whole world is looking at him as they never have before, and I believe that that is hurting the NFLs rep. That and the fact that he lied. Goodell should not just let him off even if he is proven innocent


I could see were you would argue that he is hurting the NFL's rep, but as Moses and myself have pointed out several times, what happens if he's innocent? Right now, Vick's rep is hurt alot more than the NFL's. If Vick was suspended then found innocent, the NFL would take an absolute beating.
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Old 07-20-2007, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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You, sir, are the master of the straw man argument(The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed. )


You do realize that witnesses that are testifying to get a reduced sentence aren't the most trustworthy. That is what I have been saying the entire time. It is impossible to say he is guilty without knowing the situations of the witnesses. Does it look like he is guilty? Of course it does, but we know nothing about the witnesses.

I would like to see a cite that says the federal government wins 95%+ of their cases. He has much more than a one in a million chance, even if that was the average odds of someone beating a federal rap, Vick is not a normal person. He has much, much more money than most people, and money gives him a much better chance.

I don't think the NFL should do anything to him. However, I would have absolutely no problem with the Falcons suspending him. Regardless if he is guilty or not, this will negatively affect the teams performance, which is more than enough reason for the TEAM to do something. I don't think it is enough for the NFL to do something, but the team needs to do whatever it can to win, which would involve keeping the Vick circus away.
Why I am even responding you here after you've proven yourself an idiot through other means, I don't know, but it's a slow night and I'm bored, so I'll bite.

#1, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA at your "Straw man" theory. Kind of ironic since I had issues with Moses putting words into my mouth. But hey, I'm learning real quick that you're not the sharpest tool in the drawer, so this is just par for the course.

I would absolutely love to see you get specific. You won't, because you can't, but please, humor me with an attempt.

#2. If the three other people join the four informants in turning on Vick, and it becomes seven people's word against one, Vicks dream team is going to have their hands full trying to destroy the credibility of a lot of people. Nice try, though.

#3. Give me every single case of the 5% the feds have failed to win, and lets see what went wrong. Having good attorneys doesn't necessarily mean anything, especially when the facts are as concrete as this. Bodies were found, Vick is confirmed to have been a very willing participant, let alone the owner of the land and enterprise, and that's all there is to it.

So basically, before anyone assumes Vick can win this case because it's been done before, let's assess the facts of this case versus the very small handful of others who have actually gone to trial and flat out won.

I guarantee it won't look pretty. Money means nothing. If anything, the details of the case work heavily against him, especially when the feds start bring out pictures of mutilated and dead dogs.

Anyone with half a brain should see the writing on the wall.

#4. Way to straddle the fence there hotshot. Pick a side and stand on it. What difference does it make if a suspension comes from the league or the team? Same ****, different stench.
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Old 07-20-2007, 09:54 PM    (permalink
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The fact that there is no precedence for a Federal Case such as this, Goddell can set the precedence now. ...and he should. Yes, players in the past have broken state laws and there is a precedence for that, but this does not compare. People forget that being in the NFL is a priviledge, not a right. The NFL is not the US Justice System. It has it's own set of rules. It does not have the same rules and it doesn't have to have the same rules. If Vick is innocent, then he doesn't have to go to jail. That is completely different from what matters to the NFL or any other business that has their own conduct policies. If the NFL has a rule or sets up a rule related to conduct harmful to the league, then they have the right to do so in order to protect their image. Look at NIKE. They aren't releasing Vick's new shoe line. Is America up in arms because NIKE doesn't wish to relate themselves to Vick at this time? Hell no!
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Old 07-20-2007, 10:09 PM    (permalink
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The fact that there is no precedence for a Federal Case such as this, Goddell can set the precedence now. ...and he should. Yes, players in the past have broken state laws and there is a precedence for that, but this does not compare. People forget that being in the NFL is a priviledge, not a right. The NFL is not the US Justice System. It has it's own set of rules. It does not have the same rules and it doesn't have to have the same rules. If Vick is innocent, then he doesn't have to go to jail. That is completely different from what matters to the NFL or any other business that has their own conduct policies. If the NFL has a rule or sets up a rule related to conduct harmful to the league, then they have the right to do so in order to protect their image. Look at NIKE. They aren't releasing Vick's new shoe line. Is America up in arms because NIKE doesn't wish to relate themselves to Vick at this time? Hell no!

Most of America isn't crying for Vick. Even non PETA people still have a big problem with animals being hurt. We would be getting less **** if he was selling cocaine. And Nike still has Vick on board with them, so just because they are waiting it out doesn't mean much. Honestly, them not releasing it now has nothing to do with the charges IMO. I think they aren't releasing it because as I pointed out, people have the problem with the animals. The truth is, if this Vick stuff was released right now, it would flop.
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Old 07-20-2007, 10:57 PM    (permalink
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Most of America isn't crying for Vick. Even non PETA people still have a big problem with animals being hurt. We would be getting less **** if he was selling cocaine. And Nike still has Vick on board with them, so just because they are waiting it out doesn't mean much. Honestly, them not releasing it now has nothing to do with the charges IMO. I think they aren't releasing it because as I pointed out, people have the problem with the animals. The truth is, if this Vick stuff was released right now, it would flop.
I'm not saying people are crying for Vick. Dunno where you got that. I'm responding to those saying the NFL would get pounded for suspending Vick. It's just not true. Pounded by ATL fans? Maybe. Pounded by players in Adam Jones' shoes? Maybe. But not to the general public.

On Nike....why do you think Vick's stuff would flop? It's because of the charges, bud. You can't say it has nothing to do with the charges... that's wrong.
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Old 07-20-2007, 11:03 PM    (permalink
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I don't agree with what the NFL is doing....Tank Johnson had a couple of crimes nowhere near this....one of which he was driving legally...and he gets 8 games....Mike Vick has had several incidents as well, with flipping off the fans and the water bottle and now he kills dogs....and the say"Oh lets wait and see" It really upsets me to see him to this because it hurts the image of not just him, the NFL and the falcons, but his race. Several news reports have said how much of a part dog fighting is of african american culture and it is ashame one man can do so much to ruin image
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Old 07-20-2007, 11:52 PM    (permalink
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Why I am even responding you here after you've proven yourself an idiot through other means, I don't know, but it's a slow night and I'm bored, so I'll bite.

#1, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA at your "Straw man" theory. Kind of ironic since I had issues with Moses putting words into my mouth. But hey, I'm learning real quick that you're not the sharpest tool in the drawer, so this is just par for the course.

I would absolutely love to see you get specific. You won't, because you can't, but please, humor me with an attempt.

#2. If the three other people join the four informants in turning on Vick, and it becomes seven people's word against one, Vicks dream team is going to have their hands full trying to destroy the credibility of a lot of people. Nice try, though.

#3. Give me every single case of the 5% the feds have failed to win, and lets see what went wrong. Having good attorneys doesn't necessarily mean anything, especially when the facts are as concrete as this. Bodies were found, Vick is confirmed to have been a very willing participant, let alone the owner of the land and enterprise, and that's all there is to it.

So basically, before anyone assumes Vick can win this case because it's been done before, let's assess the facts of this case versus the very small handful of others who have actually gone to trial and flat out won.

I guarantee it won't look pretty. Money means nothing. If anything, the details of the case work heavily against him, especially when the feds start bring out pictures of mutilated and dead dogs.

Anyone with half a brain should see the writing on the wall.

#4. Way to straddle the fence there hotshot. Pick a side and stand on it. What difference does it make if a suspension comes from the league or the team? Same ****, different stench.
I see you are still upset about that red dot...

1. Notice how EVERYONE who you disagree with says that you are misconstruing what they say. That, my friend, is a straw man. An example, find any thread about Mike Vick that I have ever said I thought he was innocent. Hell, find any place that Moses said he was completely innocent. All we have ever said is he might not be guilty.

2. IF IF IF IF IF, there is no guarantee they turn on him. You are stating it like it is a fact they will.

3. Vick is not CONFIRMED, he has 4 witnesses, as of right now who are of questionable motives saying he was. Let's wait and see how these witnesses end up before jumping to conclusions. You are the one who is claiming the feds don't lose, therefore, it is your responsibility to show a cite that proves your claim. All I am doing is questioning your information.

4. The difference between the NFL suspending him and the Falcons suspending him is substantial. The Falcons suspending him would help the team win games, which is what each teams primary goal is. The NFL suspending him takes that choice out of the teams hands. If the Falcons think they will win more games with Vick suspended, then they should be able to do it. I think the NFL should have a legitimate reason to suspend someone; I think the teams should be able to do it because it makes it more likely for them to win. I would prefer no one suspends him and they let it all play out, because it is POSSIBLE that he is innocent.

Moses, I have to correct you; Vick cannot be found innocent, US courts do not find anyone innocent, only not guilty. There is a huge difference. The Duke guys were innocent, OJ was not guilty(rightfully, although I am certain he did it, they did not make a case beyond a reasonable doubt, but that is for another thread.)
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Old 07-21-2007, 12:36 AM    (permalink
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Moses vs. Jay is like the epic boxing match of Gotti vs. Ward.

Bravo gentlemen.

One thing I just want to add in regard to potential witnesses that could incriminate Vick. When ESPN ran that piece a month or two ago where they had that informant talking in a silhouette and with voice masking, they immediately interviewed a federal agent (whom was also in silhouette and voice masked) and that agent said the informant had been used in previous cases as a witness and his validity as a source/witness was legit. The informant clearly outed Vick as being heavily involved. I don't know about the other witnesses, but that guy will be one that Vick's lawyers won't be able to crack.
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Old 07-21-2007, 02:33 AM    (permalink
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All this has done to this point has made Roger Goodell look like a fool. Every opponent of his "iron fist" policy stated that the real test would be when a big name gets into trouble, and then how Goodell reacted would be the true litmus test. Guess what, Goodell failed miserably! By hiding behind the "lets see how things turn out" comment, you are saying that a big name, the face of the NFL arguably, gets more credence then other players. Goodell is basically saying that superstars have different rules and therefore makes his reign as commish null and void. He needed to come out strong, saying that a FEDERAL indictment, no matter what the outcome, is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. An indefinite suspension until the facts come out during a trial or what not would have been the right move but Goodell is saying that marketing is more important then being fair and just. If I'm Tank Johnson or Pacman or Chris Henry I'm thrilled about this because Roger just gave them ammo to fight their suspensions.
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Old 07-21-2007, 07:04 AM    (permalink
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I'm not saying people are crying for Vick. Dunno where you got that. I'm responding to those saying the NFL would get pounded for suspending Vick. It's just not true. Pounded by ATL fans? Maybe. Pounded by players in Adam Jones' shoes? Maybe. But not to the general public.

On Nike....why do you think Vick's stuff would flop? It's because of the charges, bud. You can't say it has nothing to do with the charges... that's wrong.

The crying part was responding to you saying

"Is America up in arms because NIKE doesn't wish to relate themselves to Vick at this time? Hell no!"


And you honestly don't think they would take a beating? From being sued, to their behavement policy become a complete joke, and all that goodness?


And what I meant by saying it has nothing to do with the crime is, Nike isn't suspending the release because they think he's guilty. They are suspending it because they won't make $$$$.
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Old 07-21-2007, 06:06 PM    (permalink
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I don't agree with what the NFL is doing....Tank Johnson had a couple of crimes nowhere near this....one of which he was driving legally...and he gets 8 games....Mike Vick has had several incidents as well, with flipping off the fans and the water bottle and now he kills dogs....and the say"Oh lets wait and see" It really upsets me to see him to this because it hurts the image of not just him, the NFL and the falcons, but his race. Several news reports have said how much of a part dog fighting is of african american culture and it is ashame one man can do so much to ruin image
Did you even bother reading any of this thread? Half of the stuff you said is inaccurate or just flat-out wrong.
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Old 07-21-2007, 06:10 PM    (permalink
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I don't agree with what the NFL is doing....Tank Johnson had a couple of crimes nowhere near this....one of which he was driving legally...and he gets 8 games....Mike Vick has had several incidents as well, with flipping off the fans and the water bottle and now he kills dogs....and the say"Oh lets wait and see" It really upsets me to see him to this because it hurts the image of not just him, the NFL and the falcons, but his race. Several news reports have said how much of a part dog fighting is of african american culture and it is ashame one man can do so much to ruin image
Tank Johnson had unregistered firearms in his house which is illegal and he faced jail time. He deserved what he got and then he drove with alcohol in his system. Vick will be given his fair share at due process and if he is found guilty then he'll face a harsh penalty, but the NFL can not assume that Vick is in fact guilty.
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Old 07-22-2007, 12:05 AM    (permalink
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the last straw for tank johnson was the DUI that turned out to be .07 and he was driving legally. So they assumed he was guilty of the DUI, why not vick?
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Old 07-22-2007, 12:07 AM    (permalink
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the last straw for tank johnson was the DUI that turned out to be .07 and he was driving legally. So they assumed he was guilty of the DUI, why not vick?
Johnson was suspended before that DUI. Thus, your point is irrelevant.
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Old 07-22-2007, 12:09 AM    (permalink
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Did you even bother reading any of this thread? Half of the stuff you said is inaccurate or just flat-out wrong.

Alright Im prolly gonna get banned for this but u can suck my cok....just cuz u wanna blow mike vick.....bye to everyone even though i didnt add anything very important to this forum...except moses cuz he's a lil tampon wearing flamer who blows thug QB's
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Old 07-22-2007, 12:12 AM    (permalink
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Alright Im prolly gonna get banned for this but u can suck my cok....just cuz u wanna blow mike vick.....bye to everyone even though i didnt add anything very important to this forum...except moses cuz he's a lil tampon wearing flamer who blows thug QB's
Nice post. ;)
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