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Old 07-24-2007, 08:30 AM    (permalink
bsaza2358
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Originally Posted by yourfavestoner View Post
Exactly. If you were to look up the statistics, I'm sure that players aren't getting in trouble at a higher rate than they were in the 80s or 90s. It's just that we live in an age of sensationalism, where the media is super focused on player arrests because that's what people love to hear about.
I couldn't agree more with this point.
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Old 07-24-2007, 08:32 AM    (permalink
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I think the Commish is doing everytjhing he should be doing in this case. He is taking a measured approach to this matter, and he's neither bowing to outside interests nor ignoring the situation. The NFL is doing its own investigation and will make a conclusion based on independent analysis. I certainly agree with this stance. In the meantime, it's best for the NFL and the Falcons to avoid this type of distraction as best possible for the time being. It will certainly affect them, but not as much as if Vick were in camp.
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:41 AM    (permalink
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Good move on Goodnell's part. It allows the Falcons and the NFL to go ahead with things while minimumizing the Vick circus.

Reports were out the the NFL was trying to pursuade the Vickster to take a leave of abscence. Evidently the Vickster didn't get the hint. The league was forced to do this.

And as for Vick hiring high priced lawyers to help him get off. He is at one disadvantage compared to other criminal defendents. The federal proscecutors have unlimited funds. They are not going to plea bargain unless the Vickster talks. They wanted to send a message about dog fighting., and the Vickster is the unofficial messenger.
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:44 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by eacantdraft View Post
Good move on Goodnell's part. It allows the Falcons and the NFL to go ahead with things while minimumizing the Vick circus.

Reports were out the the NFL was trying to pursuade the Vickster to take a leave of abscence. Evidently the Vickster didn't get the hint. The league was forced to do this.

And as for Vick hiring high priced lawyers to help him get off. He is at one disadvantage compared to other criminal defendents. The federal proscecutors have unlimited funds. They are not going to plea bargain unless the Vickster talks. They wanted to send a message about dog fighting., and the Vickster is the unofficial messenger.
That is laughable.
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:47 AM    (permalink
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Vick is dead to me
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:53 AM    (permalink
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That is laughable.

And how is this laughable? The feds can easily outspend the Vickster with no problem. It's the Vickster who has limited funds. Once again we have a Canookian who knows nothing about the American justice system, but think he does.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:04 AM    (permalink
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And how is this laughable? The feds can easily outspend the Vickster with no problem. It's the Vickster who has limited funds. Once again we have a Canookian who knows nothing about the American justice system, but think he does.
So you believe that federal prosecutors are going to be better than Vick's all-star defence team?
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:08 AM    (permalink
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So you believe that federal prosecutors are going to be better than Vick's all-star defence team?

The federal proscecutors were better than the Enron guys. They are better than Conrad Black's. And all these parties had tons of more money than the Vickster.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:13 AM    (permalink
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The federal proscecutors were better than the Enron guys. They are better than Conrad Black's. And all these parties had tons of more money than the Vickster.
Huh? Just because they won the case does not mean they were better. Federal prosecutors maybe make $100,000 or more at the high end. Top private lawyers are making million upon millions a year. Where do you think the best lawyers go?
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:21 AM    (permalink
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Huh? Just because they won the case does not mean they were better. Federal prosecutors maybe make $100,000 or more at the high end. Top private lawyers are making million upon millions a year. Where do you think the best lawyers go?
Just because the federal prosecutors make less money, it doesn't mean they have less resources at their command. I would imagine that the federal prosecutors have enough resources to win this case. Vick probably has about $15mm to spend without bankrupting himself. With the way private firm lawyers bill, he could blow through that.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:22 AM    (permalink
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I think ea has a point. I think his motives are very vindictive, but he's probably right in this case.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:26 AM    (permalink
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Just because the federal prosecutors make less money, it doesn't mean they have less resources at their command. I would imagine that the federal prosecutors have enough resources to win this case. Vick probably has about $15mm to spend without bankrupting himself. With the way private firm lawyers bill, he could blow through that.
I'm not saying they don't have the resources to win this case. I'm saying that Vick's lawyers are better. Why would top lawyers become federal prosecutors when they could operate their own law firm, make more money, deal with less bureaucracy, and choose what cases they want to do? Vick's lawyers are going to be superior to anything the Feds can put together. Does that mean he'll win the case? Of course not, but it sure won't be his lawyers' fault if he does.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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There is no proof that Vick's lawyers are necessarily better. Federal prosecutors go into this line of work to get cases like these. What's more, they have a ton on the line with this case. Pretty much all of them will get a huge partner position at a private firm if they get a conviction. They will also get book deals and such. Those with political aspirations will have a huge boost to that end of their careers. Federal prosecutors are probably just as bright and just as motivated about this case as any defense team.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:33 AM    (permalink
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There is no proof that Vick's lawyers are necessarily better. Federal prosecutors go into this line of work to get cases like these. What's more, they have a ton on the line with this case. Pretty much all of them will get a huge partner position at a private firm if they get a conviction. They will also get book deals and such. Those with political aspirations will have a huge boost to that end of their careers. Federal prosecutors are probably just as bright and just as motivated about this case as any defense team.
So you're agreeing they are less experienced lawyers that are trying to get into major private law firms? Then, there's Vick lawyers who are the best lawyers on Earth with endless experience as trial lawyers. You're kidding yourself if you think Vick's legal team isn't clearly better than anything the Feds can put together.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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I'm not sure what you guys know about the 1980's financial markets, but there was a firm named Drexel Burnham Lambert that was a huge player in the financial markets. They had a head trader named Michael Milken, who built a financial network based on junk bonds. He used his influence in the markets to manipulate corporations into huge mergers and acquisitions. In one year, Milken brought in $10bb in fees to his company, and he was paid a salary + bonus of $750mm. He had pretty much total control of the financial markets. Much of what he was doing was illegal. He was handing out inside information to professional traders to force companies into selling. He was influencing people to take financial risks that were not in the best interests of shareholders. He was making side deals with companies he was selling and keeping proceeds for himself. He was running a racket.

After a 5+ year investigation, the NY Federal Prosecutor's office built a case with the SEC and filed charges against the firm and Milken for his activities. Milken, worth about $5bb or more, fought this entire matter tooth and nail. He hired the top PR people to help him, he had 3 or 4 private firms. He had pretty much unlimited resources. In the end, he crumbled, and the prosecutors secured a $500mm fine and a plea bargain, where he served about 5 years in jail and lost his trading license.

This was a bigger deal than the Vick case, and it was fought under much larger stakes by bigger players. The federal prosecutors won.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:39 AM    (permalink
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So you're agreeing they are less experienced lawyers that are trying to get into major private law firms? Then, there's Vick lawyers who are the best lawyers on Earth with endless experience as trial lawyers. You're kidding yourself if you think Vick's legal team isn't clearly better than anything the Feds can put together.
I'm not certain about the experience level in this case. There are plenty of veterans on both sides, and I'm certain that all parties involved are tops in their field. If you tried 100 random cases between these 2 sides, I would imagine that the defense would win about 55% of the time.

The "problem" here is that the feds have a legit case and were able to secure an indictment. They are in a favorable jurisdiction. They have public opinion and "morality" on their side. They have witnesses and probably other evidence as well. They also have a big target and a big name to put with a specific series of crimes. I like the federal prosecutors with these advantages.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:41 AM    (permalink
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I'm not certain about the experience level in this case. There are plenty of veterans on both sides, and I'm certain that all parties involved are tops in their field. If you tried 100 random cases between these 2 sides, I would imagine that the defense would win about 55% of the time.

The "problem" here is that the feds have a legit case and were able to secure an indictment. They are in a favorable jurisdiction. They have public opinion and "morality" on their side. They have witnesses and probably other evidence as well. They also have a big target and a big name to put with a specific series of crimes. I like the federal prosecutors with these advantages.
Where have I argued that Vick will win this case?

Why are you bringing up cases in which the Feds have won?

Those are irrelevant when talking about the skill level of the lawyers.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:45 AM    (permalink
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Where have I argued that Vick will win this case?

Why are you bringing up cases in which the Feds have won?

Those are irrelevant when talking about the skill level of the lawyers.
You haven't specifically argued that he'd win, but you seem to be leaning that way. I'm trying to head you off at the pass. There are plenty of top lawyers that choose careers in public service. Federal prosecution is a very dignified profession.

I'm bringing up cases that the Feds have won because it is relevant. Federal prosecutors have an insanely high success rate in their indictments and at trial. It is a testament to their resources, their skill, and their efforts to secure indictments and sift through the evidence to determine the facts.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:48 AM    (permalink
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Huh? Just because they won the case does not mean they were better.
I would say that it pretty much does.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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You haven't specifically argued that he'd win, but you seem to be leaning that way. I'm trying to head you off at the pass. There are plenty of top lawyers that choose careers in public service. Federal prosecution is a very dignified profession.

I'm bringing up cases that the Feds have won because it is relevant. Federal prosecutors have an insanely high success rate in their indictments and at trial. It is a testament to their resources, their skill, and their efforts to secure indictments and sift through the evidence to determine the facts.
Don't put words into my mouth. I'm not arguing that Vick will win or lose his case. I'm arguing that his legal team is superior to the Feds' legal team.

The verdict of cases is irrelevant in determining lawyer skill. Yes, federal indictments have a high conviction rate. So what? Take Ray Lewis' case. Statistically, that is counted as a conviction for the Feds. What lawyers did better in that case? Some of these guys plea bargain down to next to nothing but it still counts as a conviction. If the prosecutors have a case that is gift-wrapped but they plea bargain and only get a quarter of the sentence they could, they are still rewarded with a conviction.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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Defense lawyers are highly paid and are excellent at what they do. The more you pay, the more experience you get and likely the higher success rate you will enjoy. Vick has hired an excellent lead counsel. He stands a chance to win this case if the evidence and testimoney do not strongly implicate him in this case.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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I would say that it pretty much does.
Right, because legal proceedings are entirely determined by the skill level of the lawyers.

Not, you know...evidence...
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:53 AM    (permalink
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Don't put words into my mouth. I'm not arguing that Vick will win or lose his case. I'm arguing that his legal team is superior to the Feds' legal team.

The verdict of cases is irrelevant in determining lawyer skill. Yes, federal indictments have a high conviction rate. So what? Take Ray Lewis' case. Statistically, that is counted as a conviction for the Feds. What lawyers did better in that case? Some of these guys plea bargain down to next to nothing but it still counts as a conviction. If the prosecutors have a case that is gift-wrapped but they plea bargain and only get a quarter of the sentence they could, they are still rewarded with a conviction.
I cannot speak to the superior nature of the legal team because I am not an expert. I'm not going to go there and explicitly say anything about the skill of lawyers because it would be unfair for me to do so.

This is a case that I don't see Vick plea-bargaining. He's fighting for his name, endorsements, and livelihood, and he's going to push it as far as he can. If he's guilty, he's probably better off pleaing now. I'm not certain that he can win at trial, regardless of how strong his legal team is.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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I cannot speak to the superior nature of the legal team because I am not an expert. I'm not going to go there and explicitly say anything about the skill of lawyers because it would be unfair for me to do so.

This is a case that I don't see Vick plea-bargaining. He's fighting for his name, endorsements, and livelihood, and he's going to push it as far as he can. If he's guilty, he's probably better off pleaing now. I'm not certain that he can win at trial, regardless of how strong his legal team is.
Kind of odd that you would say you don't have the expertise to comment on his legal team but you would comment on whether he would win or lose this case (a much harder thing to predict).

Anyway, you can bet that if the evidence is as strong as people suggest, Billy Martin will be looking to plea bargain. It's suicide to ignore that route even if there's only a slim chance you're convicted. 6 years is a long time to spend in jail and you can bet that Billy Martin is going to immediately look for a way to reduce that sentence.
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Old 07-24-2007, 11:03 AM    (permalink
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Kind of odd that you would say you don't have the expertise to comment on his legal team but you would comment on whether he would win or lose this case (a much harder thing to predict).

Anyway, you can bet that if the evidence is as strong as people suggest, Billy Martin will be looking to plea bargain. It's suicide to ignore that route even if there's only a slim chance you're convicted. 6 years is a long time to spend in jail and you can bet that Billy Martin is going to immediately look for a way to reduce that sentence.
There is limited quantitative or qualitative evidence to suggest whether individual defense lawyers are better or worse than public prosecutors. The evidence is available to all sides (fully disclosed). There is an old quote that says, "The jury meets in that little room to decide which side had a better lawyer that day." So, looking at available statistics on conviction rates, plus the media circus and interest groups, and I have to say that unless the prosecutors were sorely mistaken and improper in their actions, Vick will either plea bargain or be convicted. He will do jail time and pay a hefty fine. He will lose his endorsements and will be cut by the Falcons.

I will say that your point about the "conviction rate" has a lot of merit. I'm trying to keep things as specific to this case as possible.
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