Surprise cuts...

[fryman]

Rob- can you get me into all the these meetings and everything you must be getting into? Base on your "knowledge" you must be there everytime anything happens with the Cowboys. I mean you know who pulled for every player. You know every good pick during the Johnson era was Johnson's guy and so on.

oh and if you aren't there everytime something happens, can you quit acting like everything you say is fact? Thanks

[LonghornsLegend]

Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd

Joey Galloway and the rest of his drafts from 1994 to 2003. Most his picks are absolute busts. Dog c r a p. A walk down Jerrah memory lane.....

1995 to 1997 (All Busts)

1998 (Best since Jimmy Johsnon left)
8 Dallas Cowboys Greg Ellis Defensive End Chapel Hill
38 Dallas Cowboys Flozell Adams Tackle Michigan State
100. Dallas - Michael Myers, DT Alabama
138. Dallas - Oliver Ross, T Iowa State

1999 (BUST)
20 Dallas Cowboys, Ebenezer Ekuban Defensive End North Carolina -- 1st
55 Dallas Cowboys Solomon Page Guard West Virginia -- 2nd
85 Dallas Cowboys Dat Nguyen Inside Linebacker Texas A&M -- 3rd
118 Dallas Cowboys Wane McGarity Wide Receiver Texas -- 4th
132 Dallas Cowboys Peppi Zellner Defensive End Fort Valley State -- 4th

2000 (BUST)
49 Dallas Cowboys Dwayne Goodrich Cornerback Tennessee -- 2nd
109 Dallas Cowboys Kareem Larrimore Cornerback West Texas A&M -- 4th
144 Dallas Cowboys Michael Wiley Running Back Ohio State -- 5th

2001 (BUST)
53 Dallas Cowboys, Quincy Quincy Carter Quarterback Georgia -- 2nd
56 Dallas Cowboys, Tony Tony Dixon Strong Safety Alabama -- 2nd
93 Dallas Cowboys Blade, Willie Willie Blade Defensive Tackle Mississippi State -- 3rd
122 Dallas Cowboys, Markus Markus Steele Outside Linebacker Southern California -- 4th
137 Dallas Cowboys Lehr, Matt Matt Lehr Guard Virginia Tech -- 5th

2002 (AVERAGE)
8 Dallas Cowboys (from Kansas City) Roy Williams Free Safety Oklahoma
37 Dallas Cowboys Andre Gurode Center Colorado
63 Dallas Cowboys (from Chicago) Antonio Bryant Wide Receiver Pittsburgh
75 Dallas Cowboys (from Kansas City) Derek Ross Cornerback Ohio State
168 Dallas Cowboys (from New England) Pete Hunter Cornerback Virginia Union

Jerrah is a horrid GM. Jerry is a great Owner.

horrid GM is the biggest overexaggeration ive seen in some time...id also just LOVE for you to find the teams who dont draft bust...last i checked those happened with every team...

and and i just love how when we draft roy williams, gurode, and a bryant in the same draft and you call that "average"...i guess if we dont draft a HOF or 10 time pro bowler in every rd its a crap draft

[robert_in_bigd]

Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend

horrid GM is the biggest overexaggeration ive seen in some time...id also just LOVE for you to find the teams who dont draft bust...last i checked those happened with every team...

and and i just love how when we draft roy williams, gurode, and a bryant in the same draft and you call that "average"...i guess if we dont draft a HOF or 10 time pro bowler in every rd its a crap draft

So two good drafts (by your definition) from 1994 to 2002 make a good GM. Nice.

Then Parcells and Jerrah had 4 great drafts. (which they definately did not, only 2005 may go down as a great draft.)

[LonghornsLegend]

Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd

So two good drafts (by your definition) from 1994 to 2002 make a good GM. Nice.

Then Parcells and Jerrah had 4 great drafts. (which they definately did not, only 2005 may go down as a great draft.)

when did i ever say we had 2 good drafts in 8 years? and you act like jerry jones wasnt a GM before that point, unless you think he's supposed to dominate the entire NFL and have us in the super bowl every other year...but of course, with your standards he's not doing his job unless that happens

[KILLERSANTA]

Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd

1999 (BUST)
20 Dallas Cowboys, Ebenezer Ekuban Defensive End North Carolina -- 1st
55 Dallas Cowboys Solomon Page Guard West Virginia -- 2nd
85 Dallas Cowboys Dat Nguyen Inside Linebacker Texas A&M -- 3rd
118 Dallas Cowboys Wane McGarity Wide Receiver Texas -- 4th
132 Dallas Cowboys Peppi Zellner Defensive End Fort Valley State -- 4th

Can I buy weed from you?

[robert_in_bigd]

Originally Posted by KILLERSANTA

Can I buy weed from you?

So one average middle LB makes it out a good draft?

Funny. You are a Jerrah Jones homer.

[robert_in_bigd]

Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend

when did i ever say we had 2 good drafts in 8 years? and you act like jerry jones wasnt a GM before that point, unless you think he's supposed to dominate the entire NFL and have us in the super bowl every other year...but of course, with your standards he's not doing his job unless that happens

Keep justifying Jerrah.

FYI, an average draft, barring trades, nets you two starters per draft usually.

Most of Jerrah's draft are dog pooh.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd

So one average middle LB makes it out a good draft?

Funny. You are a Jerrah Jones homer.

Dat average? He played and meant more to the team then that. He was consitent, he was professional and he was the leader(along with Woody) for our defense throughout those lean years. And most of all he had one of the biggest hearts on those teams. He may never went to all the pro-bowls and we will never make the HOF, but it is insult to call him average or downplay his contributions to this team.

[robert_in_bigd]

Originally Posted by Paul

Dat average? He played and meant more to the team then that. He was consitent, he was professional and he was the leader(along with Woody) for our defense throughout those lean years. And most of all he had one of the biggest hearts on those teams. He may never went to all the pro-bowls and we will never make the HOF, but it is insult to call him average or downplay his contributions to this team.

OK, your reaction is childish. Dat Nguyen was an average NFL MLB.

I do not understand why you need to bring out all this EMOTIONAL BS about him being the heart of anything.......

Leadership is so important but at the same time when everyone label everyone a leader it devalues what being a leader is.

In no uncertain terms, I have heard Bradie is invaluable because he is a leader, Roy WIlliams, Marcus Spears, TO, Tony Romo, Jason Witten, TNew ...... This is shear BS propogated by fannies who like certain players and use this to OVER VALUE what they do.

Darren Woodson was a leader. Michael Irvin was a leader. Tony Romo MAY become a leader.

Dat Nguyen was a nice player for a few years. God bless him. But he was not amonth the top 10 MLB in the NFL at any point in his career and his leadership skills where secondary to Darren.

[robert_in_bigd]

So 5 players in the top 132 of the 1999 draft and at least two fans want to label is successful b/c we sourced one AVERAGE MLB.

You guys are total lost homers. It is exactly why we disagree. Many of you can't separate what we want (desires) from factually what actually occurs (reality) in an effort to specualte of the future result (what we forecast to happen).

[fryman]

Robert- no reply to my post? I guess that means I can't get in?

[robert_in_bigd]

Originally Posted by fryman

Rob- can you get me into all the these meetings and everything you must be getting into? Base on your "knowledge" you must be there everytime anything happens with the Cowboys. I mean you know who pulled for every player. You know every good pick during the Johnson era was Johnson's guy and so on.

oh and if you aren't there everytime something happens, can you quit acting like everything you say is fact? Thanks

Fryman, that seems to be a silly argument without much thought.....

Fact is when Jimmy was around Jerry's drafts looked good.
Fact is whe BP was around Jerry's draft's looked good.
Fact is when Jerry had his weak puppet coach his drafts look bad.

Here is the reality, I do not care about who is more or less repsonsible for each little decision. I am interested in the bigger picture. The big picture with Jerry as GM and no one to "manage" him is bad.

Again, fans confuse a great owner (which Jerry is) with a great GM (which Jerrah is not).

So intead of focusing on the discussion of facts we discuss nonsensical stupidities like "where you there when Goodrich was picked!" or "Jerry is building a big stadium!"

Jerrah is a horrid GM and Player Personnel person. He just absolutely stinks. He never learned how to do it in an apprenticeship role. He picks up bits and pieces from his subordiantes and has no one to internally critique his choices or limit his use of power.

Remdins me of the commercial for Lotto with the Baseball Manager taking Q&A and then someone asks him about his third baseman stinking and the managers response is "he has heart" then the reporter says "does the fact he owns the team influence his decision to start an incompetant player" and the manager says "no comment."

Jerry as owner does what he wants, when he wants, and no one tells him otherwise. He can do with his business what he wants.

Unfortunately he sucks as GM because he never went to Football Highschool (QC or Recruiting), Football College (Position Coach), Football Grad School (Coordinator) or Football Ph.D (GM or Coach) AS A SUBORINDATE.

I just think fans who defend Jerrah the GM are really clueless as to why Owner and GM don't work and eveb less so when that same Owner has NO RELEVANT FOOTBALL EDUCATION WHERE HE IS FOCRED TO QUESTION HIMSELF OR TRULY LEARN.

Liek the rich kid who has tutors but has them fired everytime he gets a bad grade. Not the kid's fault, must be the teacher........

[KILLERSANTA]

Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd

So one average middle LB makes it out a good draft?

Funny. You are a Jerrah Jones homer.

I get it now, you were calling the whole draft a bust....Not Dat.......

[robert_in_bigd]

Originally Posted by KILLERSANTA

I get it now, you were calling the whole draft a bust....Not Dat.......

Well if I pick 5 stocks, 4 go bankrupt and 1 returns 5% ...... that to me is bust.

I luv Dat does not equal good 1999 draft.

[fryman]

Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd

Fryman, that seems to be a silly argument without much thought.....

Fact is when Jimmy was around Jerry's drafts looked good.
Fact is whe BP was around Jerry's draft's looked good.
Fact is when Jerry had his weak puppet coach his drafts look bad.

Here is the reality, I do not care about who is more or less repsonsible for each little decision. I am interested in the bigger picture. The big picture with Jerry as GM and no one to "manage" him is bad.

Again, fans confuse a great owner (which Jerry is) with a great GM (which Jerrah is not).

So intead of focusing on the discussion of facts we discuss nonsensical stupidities like "where you there when Goodrich was picked!" or "Jerry is building a big stadium!"

Jerrah is a horrid GM and Player Personnel person. He just absolutely stinks. He never learned how to do it in an apprenticeship role. He picks up bits and pieces from his subordiantes and has no one to internally critique his choices or limit his use of power.

Remdins me of the commercial for Lotto with the Baseball Manager taking Q&A and then someone asks him about his third baseman stinking and the managers response is "he has heart" then the reporter says "does the fact he owns the team influence his decision to start an incompetant player" and the manager says "no comment."

Jerry as owner does what he wants, when he wants, and no one tells him otherwise. He can do with his business what he wants.

Unfortunately he sucks as GM because he never went to Football Highschool (QC or Recruiting), Football College (Position Coach), Football Grad School (Coordinator) or Football Ph.D (GM or Coach) AS A SUBORINDATE.

I just think fans who defend Jerrah the GM are really clueless as to why Owner and GM don't work and eveb less so when that same Owner has NO RELEVANT FOOTBALL EDUCATION WHERE HE IS FOCRED TO QUESTION HIMSELF OR TRULY LEARN.

Liek the rich kid who has tutors but has them fired everytime he gets a bad grade. Not the kid's fault, must be the teacher........

so your whole argument is based on assumptions you are admitting? As long as you are admitting that it is a big step for you.

P.S. your pet name for Jerry is cute

[robert_in_bigd]

Originally Posted by fryman

so your whole argument is based on assumptions you are admitting? As long as you are admitting that it is a big step for you.

P.S. your pet name for Jerry is cute

You call it an assumption that Jerrah sucks as a GM .... I would say that goes beyond assuming. That is historical fact.

Not assuming anything. 1994 to 2002 explains everything.

Not assuming anything about why he sucks. When you are the boss (as I am) you value your opinion the most.

If Jerrah is the GM and the Owner -- who the f* is going to tell him what to do unless he realizes himself he is not any good at it?

Jerrah really thinks he is good at being a GM. So..... it explains the puzzling player personnel moves.

[fryman]

Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd

You call it an assumption that Jerrah sucks as a GM .... I would say that goes beyond assuming. That is historical fact.

Not assuming anything. 1994 to 2002 explains everything.

Not assuming anything about why he sucks. When you are the boss (as I am) you value your opinion the most.

If Jerrah is the GM and the Owner -- who the f* is going to tell him what to do unless he realizes himself he is not any good at it?

Jerrah really thinks he is good at being a GM. So..... it explains the puzzling player personnel moves.

it is an assumption that he had less input when Johnson and Parcells were there. Can you prove he didn't? No, then it is not fact.

I am not even arguing whether or not jerry is a good or bad GM. I am just saying you need to quit acting like your assumptions and opinions are fact. In any discussion people are going to have trouble accepting your input if you can't present it with tact and without trying to manipulate your opinions into fact.

[robert_in_bigd]

Originally Posted by fryman

it is an assumption that he had less input when Johnson and Parcells were there. Can you prove he didn't? No, then it is not fact.

Now I know you are blindly stupid. But worst of all, you are ignoring what Jerry Jones has said himself on many occasions about Bill Parcells input.

But let me ask a question to get you on the record .... was Bill Parcells responsible for the player personnel moves or was it Jerry?

I always opined it was Jerry was the bus driver for 2003 to 2004 and Parcells was the bus driver 2005 to 2006.

[fryman]

Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd

Now I know you are blindly stupid. But worst of all, you are ignoring what Jerry Jones has said himself on many occasions about Bill Parcells input.

But let me ask a question to get you on the record .... was Bill Parcells responsible for the player personnel moves or was it Jerry?

I always opined it was Jerry was the bus driver for 2003 to 2004 and Parcells was the bus driver 2005 to 2006.

care to provide me with any of Jerry's comments? yeah like that will happen

I have no clue who was responsible for what picks. According to some of the media every year they each had their guys, it was never one person. Then some media guys would say it was mostly Parcells. Guys like Lacewell say that there were occasions that Jerry vetoed Parcells' choice, for the scouting department's guy. Newman over Kevin Williams is one example he gave. Also according to the media and lacewell it seems that Jerry relies heavily on the scouting department. Even talking to people in the Cowboys organization they won't tell you who liked who and who made what decision though, even when you are friends, so I find it hard to trust the media on these things unless there is direct quotes.

[robert_in_bigd]

Originally Posted by fryman

care to provide me with any of Jerry's comments? yeah like that will happen.

Well, so I guess you are saying I need to drag up Press Conferences that most football fans have seen where Jerry credits Bill with teaching him so much and rebuilding the organization and his input of players (even after he quit). Now whether Jerrah believes it or not ......

So great, I need to now get video clips that 99% of the NFL fannies have already seen, Sportscasters have acknowledged, analysts have commented .... HEY, where are your video clips proving otherwise? Anything with Jerrah saying no it was me who made all the decision like when the Jimmy Johnson blow up occurred b/c Jerrah was jealous.

I am not sure you have ever been the boss or a person of much importance in an organization but I do and have..... certain decision have finger prints all over them based on what you have seen of past behavior. While each little thing you are not 100% of who did what (WHO MADE THE COFFEE!!) you do know who is driving the bus.

I don't need Watergate tapes to understand that BP's influence in the Cowboys organization was built up over the course of 4 years. Jerry did not let go of reigns in Spring of 2003 but after the 2004 debacle.

I don't need Watergate tapes to understand that BP pushed for an earlier implementation of the 3-4 and was denied (Newman and Spears over Ware at 11) come to mind as one example of Jerrah over ruling the ball coach. Jerrah also talking about gradual change in 2003 instead of doing a roster dump (Emmitt comes to mind).

I don't need Watergate tapes to understand that BP got rid of most of Jerrah's players after 2004 b/c he felt they could not produce in his system (and for that matter in any other team's system based on results). This explains the roster turnover and 2005 draft with 3-4 emphasis.

I don't need Watergate tapes to understand that Jerrah got TO in spite of what BP would have done. Or that Parcells wanted Carp.

And so on ....

But what really irks me is when things went bad with the Cowboys last year everyone (barring a limited few) totally blamed Parcells and the Coaching staff. Zimmer sucked, D was vanilla, O was not aggressive in in Seattle, BP blew the Rogers and Peterman draft picks, He ruined Henson, He watned Spears and Carp .... Parcells had total control of the football operations and all bad lay on his feet.

Now it seems when reviewing the good of the past --- lo and behold Jerrah's name comes up. Jerrah was not so bad after all in his GMing and Player Personnel. He got Ware and Barber and Romo ......

Now I ask myself, which is it guys? Who takes 50.1% or greater of the responsibility for this franchsie being called a Super Bowl contender???

[robert_in_bigd]

Originally Posted by fryman

care to provide me with any of Jerry's comments? yeah like that will happen

His words, not mine..........

http://msn.foxsports.com/CMI

But here is a quote ......

Jerry Jones (on being owner and GM): "We don't have a meddling owner with the Dallas Cowboys, because the owner is the general manager. And if I were not the general manager, I'd be a meddling owner."

An Oil Gas man who thinks he is a Football GM. Says it all you need to know on this issue.

[fryman]

Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd

Well, so I guess you are saying I need to drag up Press Conferences that most football fans have seen where Jerry credits Bill with teaching him so much and rebuilding the organization and his input of players (even after he quit). Now whether Jerrah believes it or not ......

So great, I need to now get video clips that 99% of the NFL fannies have already seen, Sportscasters have acknowledged, analysts have commented .... HEY, where are your video clips proving otherwise? Anything with Jerrah saying no it was me who made all the decision like when the Jimmy Johnson blow up occurred b/c Jerrah was jealous.

I am not sure you have ever been the boss or a person of much importance in an organization but I do and have..... certain decision have finger prints all over them based on what you have seen of past behavior. While each little thing you are not 100% of who did what (WHO MADE THE COFFEE!!) you do know who is driving the bus.

I don't need Watergate tapes to understand that BP's influence in the Cowboys organization was built up over the course of 4 years. Jerry did not let go of reigns in Spring of 2003 but after the 2004 debacle.

I don't need Watergate tapes to understand that BP pushed for an earlier implementation of the 3-4 and was denied (Newman and Spears over Ware at 11) come to mind as one example of Jerrah over ruling the ball coach. Jerrah also talking about gradual change in 2003 instead of doing a roster dump (Emmitt comes to mind).

I don't need Watergate tapes to understand that BP got rid of most of Jerrah's players after 2004 b/c he felt they could not produce in his system (and for that matter in any other team's system based on results). This explains the roster turnover and 2005 draft with 3-4 emphasis.

I don't need Watergate tapes to understand that Jerrah got TO in spite of what BP would have done. Or that Parcells wanted Carp.

And so on ....

But what really irks me is when things went bad with the Cowboys last year everyone (barring a limited few) totally blamed Parcells and the Coaching staff. Zimmer sucked, D was vanilla, O was not aggressive in in Seattle, BP blew the Rogers and Peterman draft picks, He ruined Henson, He watned Spears and Carp .... Parcells had total control of the football operations and all bad lay on his feet.

Now it seems when reviewing the good of the past --- lo and behold Jerrah's name comes up. Jerrah was not so bad after all in his GMing and Player Personnel. He got Ware and Barber and Romo ......

Now I ask myself, which is it guys? Who takes 50.1% or greater of the responsibility for this franchsie being called a Super Bowl contender???

yet again you can not comprehend my point. I am not arguing your point, I am arguing how you go about supporting your points. Not once did I say Jerry was completely in charge of the drafts. I have nothing to prove here, other than you seem to confuse fact with opinion and assumptions.

Just to get this straight you are saying that Parcells didn't want Newman and wanted Spears over Ware, right? I want to make sure I am understanding you on that.

and not sure how the end comments on the Parcells era come in to play here. It really doesn't have a whole lot to do with this discussion. I really hope it isn't directed at me either, considering you probably have no clue on my opinions of the Parcells era.

[robert_in_bigd]

Originally Posted by fryman

yet again you can not comprehend my point. I am not arguing your point, I am arguing how you go about supporting your points. Not once did I say Jerry was completely in charge of the drafts. I have nothing to prove here, other than you seem to confuse fact with opinion and assumptions.

Just to get this straight you are saying that Parcells didn't want Newman and wanted Spears over Ware, right? I want to make sure I am understanding you on that.

and not sure how the end comments on the Parcells era come in to play here. It really doesn't have a whole lot to do with this discussion. I really hope it isn't directed at me either, considering you probably have no clue on my opinions of the Parcells era.

Oh I understood you and I think your points about me "not knowing" because I was "physically not present in the Cowboy meetings" is quite stupid.

Didn't have to be there to know OJ did it. But common sense reasoning in today's world seems to be a thing of the past.

On the Newman, Spears, Ware thing ..... let me add that if Parcells picks Williams over Newman it is much less likely another 1st rounder is spent on a DL in 2005.

It more likely Parcells goes D once again in 2004 and we don't trade with Buffalo. (Remember BP was never a wheeler dealer type)

It is likely we don't draft DB's in the first round since that is not the Parcells template -- he likes bigger athletes early.

AND even if we do trade with Buffalo in 2004 ..... what we do with 2005 picks is likely split D/O.

UNFORTUNATELY, since Jerrah mucked up 2003 and 2004. Delayed the 3-4 introduction till 2005. You get Spears in 2005 as well as Canty and Ware.

I can only say that Jerrah's meddling in the draft delayed the introduction of the 3-4 by two years.

Good or bad I dunno but I have my opinion (bad).

[fryman]

Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd

Oh I understood you and I think your points about me "not knowing" because I was "physically not present in the Cowboy meetings" is quite stupid.

nope still not getting it. I am not saying you have to be there, just that you need something to back you up. Yes we have a pretty good idea with some draft picks, but almost no clue with others. To completely remove those years when evaluating Jones is poorly thought through. So Jerry gets no credit for Newman, Ware, etc.? That is what I am saying.


Thanks for clearing up the Newman, Ware, Spears comment though. I wasn't going anywhere with that, just didn't understand the wording.

[robert_in_bigd]

Originally Posted by fryman

nope still not getting it. I am not saying you have to be there, just that you need something to back you up. Yes we have a pretty good idea with some draft picks, but almost no clue with others. To completely remove those years when evaluating Jones is poorly thought through. So Jerry gets no credit for Newman, Ware, etc.? That is what I am saying.

Thanks for clearing up the Newman, Ware, Spears comment though. I wasn't going anywhere with that, just didn't understand the wording.

I have always said Jerry gets credit (drives the bus)for 2003 and 2004. Plus ... 1994 to 2002.

I have always said Parcells gets credit (drives the bus) for 2005 and 2006.

This doesn't mean Parcells did not help out in 03/04 or for that matter that Lacewell or whoever has not helped BP in 05/06 ..... but the issues is who DRIVES THE BUS.

What do I have to back-up Fryman? That Jerrah has been in charge? He said so in an interview I just sourced on Fox.

Please tell me what you wish back-up on .... happy to help.

I just have no idea what concept or idea we are debating beyond the draft or player personnel moves and who should take the creidt for what moves.