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Old 09-04-2007, 12:43 AM    (permalink
nvot9
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Default The Hall of Fame Game

I know we've had this before, and I love talking about this, both on this board and with my friends, but obviously you just say a player...any sport...and the next person says if they think they're HOF worthy or not and then lists there own..

I'll start with a tough one: Juan Gonzalez
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:54 AM    (permalink
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the only reason that people didn't think A-Rod should have won the MVP that year was because he was on a bad team... not the case with Prince Fielder... try again.
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Old 09-04-2007, 01:03 AM    (permalink
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the only reason that people didn't think A-Rod should have won the MVP that year was because he was on a bad team... not the case with Prince Fielder... try again.
You're still wrong, maybe the fact that Carlos Delgado had only 5 less HR's then him yet a higher BA and THIRTY more RBI's had something to do with that also. Oh, Fielder's on a bad team as well buddy, in the worst division in baseball, they are struggling, STRUGGLING to stay above .500 and at the moment are not in a playoff spot. It makes absolutely NO sense for Fielder to win it, I don't care what his three stats look like...the numbers don't lie, you can't deny the 33 other awards out of the last 34.

Finally, A-Rod's 03 season is clearly better than Fielder's is thus far, this year.
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Old 09-04-2007, 01:14 AM    (permalink
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You're still wrong, maybe the fact that Carlos Delgado had only 5 less HR's then him yet a higher BA and THIRTY more RBI's had something to do with that also. Oh, Fielder's on a bad team as well buddy. It makes absolutely NO sense for Fielder to win it, I don't care what his three stats look like...the numbers don't lie, you can't deny the 33 other awards out of the last 34.
Fielder is on a team in the playoff picture... ultimately i'm done arguing this with you because you just won't get over your homeristic views.
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Old 09-04-2007, 01:49 AM    (permalink
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Fielder is on a team in the playoff picture... ultimately i'm done arguing this with you because you just won't get over your homeristic views.
It's not that I feel it's David Wright. Admittedly that's more of wishful thinking than anything, if you choose to use the word "homeristic" to describe it then so be it, however, I do think he has as good a chance as anyone and wouldn't be surprised if he got it based on the team he's on, but again, I whole-heartedly do not believe he's a clear-cut front runner or even any kind of front-runner for that matter. My point was, or at least now is, that Prince Fielder in NO way deserves it, and if it came down to between those two, then David Wright deserves it over him 100% of the time.

Now, being that out of all of teams in the NL that of this moment, "own" a playoff spot, the Mets are the only team that have produced, what I feel as a legitimate MVP candidate, I don't think that the MVP will be decided by who's on the best team or a playoff team. Basically, I don't think your team's winning percentage will be a factor THIS YEAR in the NL, thus "crippling" Wright's chances a bit. Therefore, it comes down to looking like this for me...

Matt Holliday, David Wright, Prince Fielder, Hanley Ramirez, Miguel Cabrera, Chase Utley, Albert Pujols, Chipper Jones and maybe Jimmy Rollins. For the sake of the argument that Fielder doesn't deserve it, we will exclude David Wright. Lets also exclude Chase Utley, because while HR's are not in any way the major statistic, it still is important, and had it not been for his injury, all of his statistics would be much higher, but as it is, they are not, so we'll exclude him also. Rollins, while having a great season for the most part across the board, is not having AS good a season as the others, the same could be said about Hanley Ramirez and Chipper Jones I guess (although I personally disagree with those two not being considered more strongly) so those three are gone also.

We've now got Holliday, Fielder, Cabrera and Pujols. Between these four players, here's a little stat comparison that GB12 was so fond of before...
http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable_pl...ocator=Cabrera

As you can see, of the four candidates, he doesn't lead in runs (he's second), he doesn't lead in total hits (he's last, the margin between him and the third place pujols is 13 hits, and the margin between him and the first place holliday is a whopping 42 hits, Holliday was the guy ahead of Fielder in runs too...). He doesn't lead in doubles (he's third, 11 behind the first place Holliday) He's three out of four in triples, 3 behind Matt Holliday. He is however first in Home Runs with 40, 9 ahead of second place Cabrera and 15 ahead of last place Holliday who still has a high total of 25. Wait...what? He doesn't lead in RBI's though? Despite leading in HR's? That's funny, Matt Holliday, who I just said had 15 less HR's that Fielder, has 10 MORE RBI's than Fielder, and is again, in first. Holliday again leads in the Total Bases by 14 over Fielder, despite him having 15 more home runs (15 X 4, that's a 60 TB advantage that he has too). However, Holliday does have the least amount of walks and the most K's. Stolen bases amongst these four is pretty much irrelevant, but still, Holliday is in first in that...Pujols has the dominating OBP% but Holliday has a .13 point advantage over Fielder. Fielder has over a .20 point lead in slugging percentage. And here comes the killer, Matt Holliday leads these four in BA with a .335 BA, a grand total of .52 points ahead of Fielder's last place .283 BA. And if it's not already imbedded in your brain from me saying it so much, then I'll say it again, but ONLY ONE OF THE LAST 34 MVP WINNERS HAS HAD A BATTING AVERAGE OF BELOW .300 AND THAT WAS .298, WHICH IS STILL .15 POINTS AHEAD OF FIELDER.

I'm hoping that covers it all, but I know you'll still come with the excuse that "Fielders job is to just hit Homer's and get RBI's." And to that I say, first of all, Holliday has 10 more RBI's than Fielder, so there goes one stat...second of all, saying it's not Fielder's job is just an excuse to hide his mediocrity at everything else.
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Old 09-04-2007, 09:03 AM    (permalink
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Wait... wasn't this about the Hall of Fame.
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Old 09-04-2007, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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Tino Martinez?

ooh ooh i know Prince Fielder? David Wright?
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 09-04-2007, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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Omar Vizquel?
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Old 09-04-2007, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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Bueller?

EDIT - not quick enough...
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Old 09-04-2007, 10:41 AM    (permalink
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Omar Vizquel?
Vizquel is tough. Its hard to put someone in who has only been an all star three times, but he played in a era where SS offensive numbers have exploded.

On the same token Ozzie Smith was a 15 time All Star who has worse numbers career wise than Omar.

Ozzie was a career .262/.337/.328, which is rather weak numbers. Yes he won 13 gold gloves but Omar won 11 and maybe might win another one.

Omar in his career is .274/.340/.347, which is slightly better.

I dunno if Omar gets in, but Ozzie is extremely overrated. He got to be an All Star by being flashly with his glove. Something Omar who can be equally as flashy, didn't have the privelage of.
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:10 PM    (permalink
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We all know the Stark/Boras debate on it.. so


Andruw Jones
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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We all know the Stark/Boras debate on it.. so


Andruw Jones
Def not yet. He has to do a lot more. The only reason there is a debate on it is because Boras could see himself losing money the moment Stark showed people the light.
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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We all know the Stark/Boras debate on it.. so


Andruw Jones
This one's pretty tough to be honest. I don't think he's comparably as good a fielder as Ozzie Smith was but he is a better hitter. He's always been pretty feared, but never dominated, and hasn't played enough yet, so for those reasons I say no. Now, he still has more seasons in him, but he seems to be declining now more than ever, and that as well leads me to say no. If he can get to 500 HR's by the end of his career I see this as being a MUCH more difficult decision, but as of now, I think everyone has a tough time deciding, but everyone will eventually say no.

Since it was never answered before: Juan Gonzalez.
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:35 PM    (permalink
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This one's pretty tough to be honest. I don't think he's comparably as good a fielder as Ozzie Smith was but he is a better hitter. He's always been pretty feared, but never dominated, and hasn't played enough yet, so for those reasons I say no. Now, he still has more seasons in him, but he seems to be declining now more than ever, and that as well leads me to say no. If he can get to 500 HR's by the end of his career I see this as being a MUCH more difficult decision, but as of now, I think everyone has a tough time deciding, but everyone will eventually say no.

Since it was never answered before: Juan Gonzalez.


I'll say no. His stats are pretty impressive, but he never ridiculously dominated the league, and he didn't compile HOF stats either. I think it's going to be very tough for a power hitter with less than 500 to get in now.
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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As for the new one, Vlad. Not as of right now, but when it's all said and done.
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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As for the new one, Vlad. Not as of right now, but when it's all said and done.
Yes for sure. Vlad is only 31 (if his b-day is right). He has 360 HRs right now. I think he gets to 500. He will also get to 3,000 hits and has a career average of .325 which is unbelievable.
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Old 09-04-2007, 02:02 PM    (permalink
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Joba Chamberlain?

9 G, 11.1 IP, 17K, 0.00 ERA
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Old 09-04-2007, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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Joba Chamberlain?

9 G, 11.1 IP, 17K, 0.00 ERA
Too good for the hall of fame. I hear he is up for being considered a saint by the vatican though.
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Old 09-04-2007, 04:19 PM    (permalink
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How about Roberto Alomar? Probably the best 2nd baseman in the game during his time, terrific defensive player, .300 career BA, 474 stolen bases, 12 time all-star, 10 gold gloves...
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Old 09-04-2007, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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How about Roberto Alomar? Probably the best 2nd baseman in the game during his time, terrific defensive player, .300 career BA, 474 stolen bases, 12 time all-star, 10 gold gloves...
Haha. Before I got down here, I was thinking about bringing up his name. IMO, especially in comparison to the numbers of the other HOF 2nd basemen, he's a lock.

How about Edgar Martinez? IMO, the best pure hitter I ever saw. .312 lifetime BA, career .418 OBP, 514 doubles, 2,247 hits, 7 AS games, 5 SS, and a lazy eye. He doesn't have the benchmark HR numbers or with hits, but he also started his career at 27, which makes his numbers fairly ridiculous. The first true DH, which will most likely only hurt him, but in some ways, as the DH only can be relied on for hitting, his position is sometimes harder.
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Old 09-04-2007, 05:29 PM    (permalink
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I say yes for him. Check Ewing's sig...that's pretty damn impressive, and I think he's the best DH ever, at least certainly a top 3.

Mike Alstott?
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Old 09-04-2007, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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Alstott is a deffinite no, the last FB to be inducted last played 1978

Larry Centers will be the last true FB to make it


Mark Grace?
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Old 09-04-2007, 07:24 PM    (permalink
VoteLynnSwan
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No to Mark Grace, just doesn't have the numbers, he would have needed 3000 hits to get in.
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Old 09-04-2007, 07:50 PM    (permalink
BrownsTown
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Ok, how about this one: Paul Pierce?
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Old 09-04-2007, 08:52 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownsTown View Post
Ok, how about this one: Paul Pierce?
No he has never been a top 10 player in the league let alone top 15 for an extended amount of time, his numbers will also go down now because of KG and Ray, i also believe he is now on the downside of his career


Heres one:

How about Ronde Barber
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