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Old 11-12-2007, 06:31 PM    (permalink
TacticaLion
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The Lions have scored half of their total points off takeaways and/or from their defense. Without those points, this team would be winless.
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Old 11-12-2007, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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If you look past stats and actually look at games and performances, the Lions' defense is performing like a top 10 defense.
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Old 11-12-2007, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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WHY?

If you force four turnovers a game, it would be almost impossible to not score 14 points or more as a result of turnovers. Your offense would only have to be completely inept to not be able to score 10 points on its own accord.

Not saying the Lions method of playing defense is great, but it is effective.
I'm not saying the Lions defense isn't good. I am just saying that TacticaLion is completely leaving out every stat but turnovers. I still think the Lions have the worst defense in the division. However, all 4 teams have above average defenses(Lions last at around 15 in the league.)
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TacticaLion View Post
The Lions have scored half of their total points off takeaways and/or from their defense. Without those points, this team would be winless.
My question is this: How does a defence devise a method to create turnovers? I think turnovers are generally caused by mistakes by the other team or a nice individual effort by a defender. I don't think you can depend on them.
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:38 PM    (permalink
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I'm not saying the Lions defense isn't good. I am just saying that TacticaLion is completely leaving out every stat but turnovers. I still think the Lions have the worst defense in the division. However, all 4 teams have above average defenses(Lions last at around 15 in the league.)
Leaving out every stat? I've acknowledged every stat... but a number isn't everything when looking at a team. A team allows 3 points one game... and 56 the next. What is that team's "average points against"? 29.5. They haven't allowed 30 points, on average, over the two games... but that's what that stat implies.

The Lions' defense has given up a lot of points in a few games, which have made that stat much higher than it realistically is. Regardless, they've forced turnovers in every game (4 in every game for the last 3 games) and have won from those turnovers. Turnovers often dictate the outcome of the game, which is why I think our defense has been good-great this year.
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:42 PM    (permalink
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My question is this: How does a defence devise a method to create turnovers? I think turnovers are generally caused by mistakes by the other team or a nice individual effort by a defender. I don't think you can depend on them.
Scheme.

Pressure on the QB often leads to mistakes (fumbles, bad passes, tipped passes), which lead to turnovers. Good safety play in the Cover 2 can also lead to interceptions. Both have happened quite a bit this year.

Marinelli has also said that he wants to stop the big play and can live with the short pass/run. He'd rather it take a team 12 plays to score vice 3 and, in the process, risk making mistakes/self destructing. In this case, that's a part of the scheme.
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:44 PM    (permalink
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Oh thats why yall look so goood on D, Cover 2, not man enough to play Bump?
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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Oh thats why yall look so goood on D, Cover 2, not man enough to play Bump?
Yeah... **** Super Bowls, right? Silly Colts/Bears... "wimps".

Good teams play to win, not play to show their "manliness".
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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Al Harris and Charles Woodson show their manlines all the time, theyre kinda like big hairy American winning machines

They piss excellence

And i think we do play to win, dont you?
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:55 PM    (permalink
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Yeah... **** Super Bowls, right? Silly Colts/Bears... "wimps".

Good teams play to win, not play to show their "manliness".
One season doesn't make a scheme. I'm not sold the Cover 2 is any more effective at creating turnovers than any other scheme. For one, it tends to be vulnerable to the run and can have trouble generating a sufficient pass rush.
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:57 PM    (permalink
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Al Harris and Charles Woodson show their manlines all the time, theyre kinda like big hairy American winning machines

They piss excellence

And i think we do play to win, dont you?
The Lions are 6-3 against a weak schedule, and now Lions fans are talking **** like they own the place.

1957!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:59 PM    (permalink
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One season doesn't make a scheme. I'm not sold the Cover 2 is any more effective at creating turnovers than any other scheme. For one, it tends to be vulnerable to the run and can have trouble generating a sufficient pass rush.
I think it is funny how he says 3rd down% doesn't matter, but turnovers mean everything. If you stop them on third down, they turn the ball over the next down.
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Old 11-12-2007, 08:09 PM    (permalink
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hey someone447!
You play at Portland St right? Do you ever tell Glanville your a packer fan and ask him what he thought about favre?
Sorry to derail the convo
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Old 11-12-2007, 08:14 PM    (permalink
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Al Harris and Charles Woodson show their manlines all the time, theyre kinda like big hairy American winning machines

They piss excellence

And i think we do play to win, dont you?
Suggesting that one scheme is "less-manly" than another is pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Moses
One season doesn't make a scheme. I'm not sold the Cover 2 is any more effective at creating turnovers than any other scheme. For one, it tends to be vulnerable to the run and can have trouble generating a sufficient pass rush.
I'm sorry that you're not sold on it... but many of our takeaways have come from the defensive scheme. It would be hard to suggest that the two aren't related.
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The Lions are 6-3 against a weak schedule, and now Lions fans are talking **** like they own the place.
That really didn't make sense. Considering the post you quoted, how does me disagreeing with that ******** "manliness is more important than the scheme" argument suggest that I think I own the place? Good one.
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Originally Posted by someone447
I think it is funny how he says 3rd down% doesn't matter, but turnovers mean everything. If you stop them on third down, they turn the ball over the next down.
I never said that turnovers mean everything. Good try, though.

Oh, and yes... stopping them on 3rd down gets you the ball on the following play (or gives them a FG opportunity)... whereas a takeaway stops the drive where it is (1st down, 2nd down, 3rd down)... and takes away the FG attempt.

If you take the ball away on 2nd down, they can't play on 3rd down...
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Old 11-12-2007, 08:15 PM    (permalink
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Unless you get the interception the endzone for a touchback and the other team had the ball back at the 38+
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Old 11-12-2007, 08:16 PM    (permalink
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Do you honestly believe that you can depend on stopping teams by constantly taking the ball away? I just don't see it. Some teams or players are simply not going to turn the ball over very often.
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Old 11-12-2007, 08:25 PM    (permalink
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Do you honestly believe that you can depend on stopping teams by constantly taking the ball away? I just don't see it. Some teams or players are simply not going to turn the ball over very often.
No... not consistently. That wasn't what I said.

Most of our takeaways are from our scheme... that's what my point was. Do I think we'll do it consistently? Not necessarily. But, we also don't give up 56 points "consistently". Our takeaways are much more consistent than our other stats (PPG, YPG).

I agree... teams wont always turn the ball over. Certain defensive schemes can force turnovers, though.
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Old 11-12-2007, 08:39 PM    (permalink
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hey someone447!
You play at Portland St right? Do you ever tell Glanville your a packer fan and ask him what he thought about favre?
Sorry to derail the convo
Not yet I haven't, but before I am done here I will. We haven't exactly been having a good season(2-8, ugh), so now isn't the time. But during the offseason I am going to be spending a lot of time in the coaches office, since I want to coach, so it will probably come up.
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Old 11-12-2007, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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That really didn't make sense. Considering the post you quoted, how does me disagreeing with that ******** "manliness is more important than the scheme" argument suggest that I think I own the place? Good one.
I never said that turnovers mean everything. Good try, though.

Oh, and yes... stopping them on 3rd down gets you the ball on the following play (or gives them a FG opportunity)... whereas a takeaway stops the drive where it is (1st down, 2nd down, 3rd down)... and takes away the FG attempt.

If you take the ball away on 2nd down, they can't play on 3rd down...
You have been talking **** saying how great the Lions d was all thread. The post I quoted was just the first one I clicked on...

We have given you all sorts of stats, yet you say they don't matter because of the turnovers.
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Old 11-12-2007, 08:49 PM    (permalink
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No... not consistently. That wasn't what I said.

Most of our takeaways are from our scheme... that's what my point was. Do I think we'll do it consistently? Not necessarily. But, we also don't give up 56 points "consistently". Our takeaways are much more consistent than our other stats (PPG, YPG).

I agree... teams wont always turn the ball over. Certain defensive schemes can force turnovers, though.
Maybe not 56, but they have now given up over 30 points 3 times now. With games against NY, GB, Dallas, and SD that probably wasn't the last one either.
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Old 11-12-2007, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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Maybe not 56, but they have now given up over 30 points 3 times now. With games against NY, GB, Dallas, and SD that probably wasn't the last one either.
We've also given up 17, 16, 7 and 7. Our PPG without the Eagles game: 20 (T-12th in the NFL). With? 24 (24th in the NFL). That's a big jump.

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Originally Posted by someone447
You have been talking **** saying how great the Lions d was all thread. The post I quoted was just the first one I clicked on...

We have given you all sorts of stats, yet you say they don't matter because of the turnovers.
How great the Lions' D is? What?

I started this conversation with the following post:
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Originally Posted by Recap
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Chris View Post
why is that?
Many of the posts in this thread take shots at the Lions' D... when their D has been the best at one of the most important aspects of the game: takeaways.

The DLine has been great, the LBers have been OK and the secondary has played way above expectations.

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Originally Posted by Bearsfan123 View Post
You look at three out of the four teams, the Lions being the exception, and we have three very deep, very talented defenses in this division.
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It just depends on how you look at it. We're probably the only division that has three very good defenses but the Lions defense is so god awful that collectively I just don't know.
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IMO The Quality of the other 3 defenses makes up for the lack of defense for the lions.
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Originally Posted by TitleTown088 View Post
Man, I just don't know... The lions defense is just plain terrible. The other three should be great this season though.
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Detroit clearly has the worst defense.
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
Not only does Detroit have the worst defense in the NFL, they might have the worst defense in the history of the NFL.

This was said to be a joke...
The ******** humors me.
Read the comments about the Lions' D and tell me how accurate they are... that has been my point. I think turnovers are important and a big part of the game... and the fact that the Lions' D has forced so many (and scored from those opportunities) is impressive... but the D has played way above expectations and isn't the "awful" and "plain terrible" defense that was stated above.
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Old 11-12-2007, 09:12 PM    (permalink
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Al Harris, Charles Woodson and Jarrett Bush's (He gets the yeller one) balls.



Fisher and Bryant's balls...
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Old 11-13-2007, 03:00 AM    (permalink
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Maybe not 56, but they have now given up over 30 points 3 times now. With games against NY, GB, Dallas, and SD that probably wasn't the last one either.
Its probably going to get real ugly for them, I thought they would at least have beat Arizona. Im not going to nock the value of turn overs, but I think its going to become real obvious that detroit needs a lot more than a few turn overs to keep the rest of the teams they face from putting up big numbers on offense. In fact if detroit misses the playoffs it will likely be because the defense cant hang with the average or better teams in the league. Most people knew at the beginning of the season that detroits defense would be their biggest problem. I think we will see that down the final stretch and nobody but a few detroit fans will be surprized.

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Old 11-13-2007, 06:30 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Football Fan View Post
Its probably going to get real ugly for them, I thought they would at least have beat Arizona. Im not going to nock the value of turn overs, but I think its going to become real obvious that detroit needs a lot more than a few turn overs to keep the rest of the teams they face from putting up big numbers on offense. In fact if detroit misses the playoffs it will likely be because the defense cant hang with the average or better teams in the league. Most people knew at the beginning of the season that detroits defense would be their biggest problem. I think we will see that down the final stretch and nobody but a few detroit fans will be surprized.
Of course "most people" knew that the defense was their biggest problem... on paper, the offense looks great. It hasn't been that way, though. If Detroit misses the playoffs, it'll be because the offense will continue to disappoint. The offense, not the defense, has been the weak link on the team this year.

I said it in another thread: if we beat Arizona, we'd finish 9-7. If not, we'd finish 8-8. So, if we miss the playoffs, I won't be that surprised.
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Old 11-13-2007, 12:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TacticaLion View Post
Of course "most people" knew that the defense was their biggest problem... on paper, the offense looks great. It hasn't been that way, though. If Detroit misses the playoffs, it'll be because the offense will continue to disappoint. The offense, not the defense, has been the weak link on the team this year.

I said it in another thread: if we beat Arizona, we'd finish 9-7. If not, we'd finish 8-8. So, if we miss the playoffs, I won't be that surprised.
Detroit gave up 31 points last week and thats what is going to lose games. Yeah there were turn overs, but thats where your defense has to come in and get the stops on 3rd down. Giving up 25+ points is likely to be the norm during most of the next 7 games. That will be on the defense.
24th in the league with 24 points per game given up is all on the defense, no excuses. Its about stopping other teams on 3rd downs and not giving up the touchdowns and good defenses will do that.

Last edited by Football Fan : 11-13-2007 at 12:30 PM.
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