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Old 01-05-2010, 03:35 PM    (permalink
MattyFos
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Originally Posted by j05son View Post
Holmgren press conference at 4. Holmgren stated in his last press he learned he needed to make the important decisions sooner than later.

Possible GM announced? Mangini's and/or staff's fate? Zorn on his way? News on contract situations with Cribbs, Harrison and/or Roth?
By my understanding, the 4 oclock press conference will not have any major announcements..
If Mangini is out- possible coaching candidate.
Mooch
Gruden
Jim Zorn
Marty Mornhinweg
Ray Rhodes
John Fox
If Mangini is retained- possible Offensive coordinators
Charlie Weis
Marty Mornhinweg
Jim Zorn

Now, discuss a combination of these coaches with or without Mangini.. who you'd like, who you wouldn't...

One quick thing about 'Morningwood' (that's what Detroit fans call him).. coaches have a higher chance of success when they are hired in their 40's (age) and they are not first time coaches.. Shannahan, Belichick, Parcells, Holmgren (?), Denny Green (first job was northwestern)

So hiring a coach like Morningwood with a career 5-27 record wouldn't exactly be a bad hire. The situation is set up for success b/c of his experience and his age (47).

I would like any of those coaches except Jim Zorn.. including Mangini (he is my last choice) as head coach. Combined with any of the three offensive coordinators.. Zorn was a QB coach at Seattle before he was hired at Washington. He's familiar with Holmgren, though he's never been an Offensive coordinator. I'm comfortable with Mornhinweg's familiarity with what Holmgren wants and expects in the WCO.
My number one choice would be Charlie Weis (Notre Dame fan). I think he is an offensive genius, and he could get Brady Quinn to where we need him.

Now, discuss
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Old 01-05-2010, 04:42 PM    (permalink
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I'd like to hold onto Mangini, provided he and Holmgren can make the whole WCO/4-3/3-4 thing work, and pick up Weis as the OC. He is obviously an excellent offensive mind and I think he would be good for Brady (he would probably already know most of the system which would allow him some stability/continuity in his short career).

Although I hated Mangini in the middle of the season, I think that the culture he is putting in place is starting to come around. That, and the way the players seem to have responded, both to Mangini's personality and on the field in terms of W's, I think you have to give him another shot and more time to try and make his "plan" work.

That is what I would like to see.

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Old 01-05-2010, 04:43 PM    (permalink
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one thing is for certain, we need a new OC. db might be the worst coordinator in the league
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Old 01-05-2010, 05:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Stamper View Post
one thing is for certain, we need a new OC. db might be the worst coordinator in the league
Nice to see you back around the Browns boards...I also agree with you on Daboll.


Back to the Mike Holmgren presser:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange and Brown report
Here is a summary of some of the topics covered:

Q: What is your timetable for hirings/firings?:

Holmgren: We’re going to make some decisions by the end of the week, hopefully. There are some rules in place by the NFL and it might take a little longer than I had hoped.

Q: What are your plans for Eric Mangini?:

Holmgren: That’s an important question for the organization. I met with Eric briefly, but not THE meeting. We have a meeting scheduled for Wednesday. I did give him a list of things to think about before our meeting. In fairness to Eric, so he’s not blind-sided it’s important for him to know where I’m coming from.

Q: Does Mangini have a legitimate chance to be retained?

Holmgren: Absolutely, or I wouldn’t schedule this meeting. I don’t dance much. I shoot straight. We’re going to have a meeting, maybe a couple of meetings and hope to have this established by the end of the week. In fairness to everybody, let’s just let this play out.

Q: Does the type of offense or defense you ran have any bearing on being on the same page?:

Holmgren: All I care about is for the organization to win. If you run a 3-4 defense and win, that’s all that matters. I learned the West Coast offense from Bill Walsh and if you ask him about it he’d say he learned it from Paul Brown.

Q: How important is it to have the personnel people and coaches together on personnel decisions?

Holmgren: I’ve coached a long time and I know the only way you win in this league is if the (president), coach and GM are all on the same page. It all boils down to egos getting in the way and it destroys the team. My goal is to have everyone in this building working together for the same goal.

Q: Is there any possibility you will coach this year?:

Holmgren: I’m not going to coach the team, but I think I can contribute offensively I’m not going to coach the team.

When I made the decision to be away from the game after coaching, I realized I missed it. I had to make a decision if I would stay on the field or approach the NFL and a team in a different way as a new challenge.

Q: What intrigues you about this job?:

Holmgren: Randy Lerner approached us and we had some interesting talks and the rest is history.The Browns have a wonderful, wonderful history and we want to get them to the playoffs and the Super Bowl. I think we did a good job in Green Bay and in Seattle of fixing things a little bit and getting to the Super Bowl.

When we won the Super Bowl in Green Bay it had been a long time since Coach Lombardi’s team had been there. There were so many more people who enjoyed that win and deserved the credit. We’re going to try very, very hard to get everyone pulling in the right direction.

Q: Is Tom Heckert a candidate for the GM job?:

Holmgren: Tom is coming in tomorrow more. There are others scheduled but I will not divulge them.

Q: How many people do you think you’ll hire?:

Holmgren: That’s in the process of being decided right now. We have a number of things we’re looking at. Some of that is re-structuring. We’re going to look at everything and stream line things.Right now, I have a lot of titles. I don’t want to do it all. We’re going to hire a general manager. Very few teams, I will be involved, but as to who will have the final say I can’t say. It’s a mistake if whoever has the responsibility to make the draft decisions doesn’t listen to the coaches or assistant coaches input. Ron Wolf said he would never draft a player that I didn’t want. Part of my job is to make sure everyone has input.

Q: Do you think you might coach again?:

Holmgren: I think I said I wasn’t going to coach this year. I enjoyed it. It was so much fun and I know I’m going to miss it. My challenge is to take my new role and help the coach be as successful as he can be. I hope I can feel as good about that as I did about coaching.

Q: Did you enjoy your year off from football?:

Holmgren: It was invigorating. I enjoyed my time off. I needed to take a break. I didn’t know if I was going to get back into football, when I took a break. However, there’s something inside of me, the challenge of rebuilding things.

Q: What are your impressions of Randy Lerner?:

Holmgren: Randy Lerner so wants this football team to be great for all the fans. When you get that type of support, that’s exciting.

Q: Are you going to extend Josh Cribbs’ contract?:

Holmgren: That’s the question. We’ve been in contract with his representatives, even when I was in Arizona. I believe players should be rewarded. Our view and the agent’s views sometimes are different. I want Josh here and he has three years left on his existing contract, so it’s a little unprecedented in that regards, but it’s just the business part of it we’re going through now.

Q: Does the final four games sway you?:

Holmgren: Well, they won four games in a row and that’s pretty good. You have to give me some time to take off my coaching hat since I’m now a big shot executive. I’ve probably been in situations where I said (the organization was a mess). The team finished strong, but there’s more than the final four games involved here.

Q: Will you be over the whole organization?:

Holmgren: My responsibility is for the organization and so I’ll take a role in everything, but I’m not going to micromanage.

Q: Have you met with Randy Lerner today?:

Holmgren: The owner was going to be here but couldn’t travel due to the weather.

Q: Do you have a list of potential head coaches if you let Mangini go?:

Holmgren: That’s a little premature before I meet with Eric .If I spent a lot of time on a list that might have been a waste of time. I’ve always kept a list of coaches.

Q: Can winning at the end of the season help you in the future?:

Holmgren: We were 4-9 in my third year and got hot and won our last three games and that was a spring board for our success later. I think you can build on that absolutely.
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Last edited by j05son : 01-05-2010 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 01-05-2010, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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Just a gut feeling: From how Holmgren words his answers I think Mangini will be gone by Thursday...

Which is sad if you ask me.
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Old 01-05-2010, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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Just a gut feeling: From how Holmgren words his answers I think Mangini will be gone by Thursday...

Which is sad if you ask me.
I'm really not trying to read into it but I think it could go either way really. I really think the way Holmgren chose his words leaves it so it could be deciphered in multiple ways.

Hopefully your gut feeling is wrong though. ^_-
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Old 01-05-2010, 10:06 PM    (permalink
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I'm really not trying to read into it but I think it could go either way really. I really think the way Holmgren chose his words leaves it so it could be deciphered in multiple ways.

Hopefully your gut feeling is wrong though. ^_-
I didn't want Mangini, hated Mangini mid-season, and still don't want Mangini. BUT, I think he has earned himself some favor in the fan base. That's saying a lot from where he was prior to the Thursday night game... I think we still have to take the season as a whole as to whether to retain him.

Record- 5-11 in a first season is an automatic retain.

Lockerroom- He has won over most if not all of the players. That is a good sign

Fanbase- Though the fans are sympathetic to him, they still weren't buying tickets to see the Browns

Personnel Decisions- Alright draft. James Davis was injured, Alex Mack will be a solid pro, Mohammed Massaquoi can be a good receiver, we never saw Brian Robiskie, Maiva is a special teamser at best, same with Veikune (spelling).
Traded away Kellend Winslow for [essentially] Mohammed Massaquoi.
Traded Braylon Edwards for Chansi Stuckey, Jason Trusnik, and a third round pick.
On the plus side, traded down in the draft to pick up a lot picks, we have 11 draft picks for 2010.
Picked up Matt Roth and Evan Moore. Two good players. Played Jerome Harrison (out of neccesity)

Threw George Kokinis under the bus after Mangini traded Braylon Edwards without the GM (Kokinis') knowledge.

I say cut ties with him. He has earned another year with his win/loss record. But 1-11 pissed off a lot of good fans. And trading away known talent for draft picks and special teams players pissed off me.
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Old 01-06-2010, 04:56 AM    (permalink
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Personnel Decisions- Alright draft. James Davis was injured, Alex Mack will be a solid pro, Mohammed Massaquoi can be a good receiver, we never saw Brian Robiskie, Maiva is a special teamser at best, same with Veikune (spelling).
Traded away Kellend Winslow for [essentially] Mohammed Massaquoi.
Traded Braylon Edwards for Chansi Stuckey, Jason Trusnik, and a third round pick.
On the plus side, traded down in the draft to pick up a lot picks, we have 11 draft picks for 2010.
Picked up Matt Roth and Evan Moore. Two good players. Played Jerome Harrison (out of neccesity)

Threw George Kokinis under the bus after Mangini traded Braylon Edwards without the GM (Kokinis') knowledge.

I say cut ties with him. He has earned another year with his win/loss record. But 1-11 pissed off a lot of good fans. And trading away known talent for draft picks and special teams players pissed off me.
I liked the trading of our "star" players to be honest. We were not going anywhere this year, so why would you keep 2 overpaid players who do nothing but ***** around? KII, he actually has skills to back it up but Edwards, man, the guy is not a good receiver in this league. Period. People in the national media always labeled him a "supertalented star". Guess how many Cleveland games these guys watch? And go ask some Jets fans what they think of the trade.

You should also see, that mangini only traded those star players who wouldn't be down with a team first attitude. Thomas is still there. Rogers is still there. Wright is still there.

Sometimes you just have to make some steps back when you start over fresh.
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Old 01-06-2010, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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okay, I'm all for keeping Mangini. Not only b/c of what he's done to close out the season and the foundation he's layed, but also b/c if we do fire him the coaches we've been rumored to maybe go after (Mornhiweg, Marriuci, etc.) don't sound very intriguing. Mostly failed NFL head coaches or guys who would be just Holmgren puppets. Gruden is a longshot with his contract to MNF. However...the rumor about us bringing in John Fox sounds good. If we fire Mangini he is one guy who I would be happy with. He's a great coach with a good track record who would work well with Holmgren and the Cleveland fan base. Proven head coach who has been to a super bowl and built a team from being 1-15 into NFC South Champs every other year. Mangini or Fox, either way it'd be cool with me.
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Old 01-06-2010, 07:30 PM    (permalink
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I liked the trading of our "star" players to be honest. We were not going anywhere this year, so why would you keep 2 overpaid players who do nothing but ***** around? KII, he actually has skills to back it up but Edwards, man, the guy is not a good receiver in this league. Period. People in the national media always labeled him a "supertalented star". Guess how many Cleveland games these guys watch? And go ask some Jets fans what they think of the trade.

You should also see, that mangini only traded those star players who wouldn't be down with a team first attitude. Thomas is still there. Rogers is still there. Wright is still there.

Sometimes you just have to make some steps back when you start over fresh.
To be fair, Mangini never gave Kellen the chance to be a team first guy. That was one of the first things Mangini did.. trading away Kellen.
About Edwards, I'd still rather have an uber-talented ego maniac who drops 10 passes a year. If my other choice was the very limited talent Chansi Stuckey, who has drop problems too.
If I had to choose one of the guys, I'd pick Kellen. He had almost 800 yards and 5 TD's for the Bucs.. Thats with three different QB's Byron Leftwich, Josh Johnson, and Josh Freeman.. A journey man, a run first passer, and a rookie.. Kellen played above and beyond the team around him..
And with Braylon, maybe Jets fans are not happy with him bc Rex Ryan didn't want him getting the 55 receptions that would have given the Browns a second rounder instead of a third.
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Old 01-06-2010, 09:10 PM    (permalink
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okay, I'm all for keeping Mangini. Not only b/c of what he's done to close out the season and the foundation he's layed, but also b/c if we do fire him the coaches we've been rumored to maybe go after (Mornhiweg, Marriuci, etc.) don't sound very intriguing. Mostly failed NFL head coaches or guys who would be just Holmgren puppets. Gruden is a longshot with his contract to MNF. However...the rumor about us bringing in John Fox sounds good. If we fire Mangini he is one guy who I would be happy with. He's a great coach with a good track record who would work well with Holmgren and the Cleveland fan base. Proven head coach who has been to a super bowl and built a team from being 1-15 into NFC South Champs every other year. Mangini or Fox, either way it'd be cool with me.
I'm not crazy about Fox because it means dumping the 34 which finally got entertaining to watch during the last 4.
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Old 01-06-2010, 09:31 PM    (permalink
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Winslow was damaged goods. It was a fantastic trade. Massaquoi can clearly play and we still have another pick to use. Winslow looks good now on a horrid Tampa team, but his long term future there is sketchy at best.

Edwards' problem is body control. When he goes full speed, he can't control his body so the ball moves too much when he's trying to catch it, which is why he jumps for virtually every single pass thrown at him. Whether or not he chooses to deal with that is up to him, but he frankly sucks.

I hope the following happens. I hope they retain Eric Mangini, Rob Ryan, and Brian Cox, and Brad Seely. The rest need replaced and if I was Mike Holmgren, I'd call Mike Leach to interview for the OC job. The guy is eccentric, but he's a savant with offenses and is fantastic with QBs.

I'd try to trade Shaun Rogers and Eric Steinbach while they still have value. Eric Steinbach was mediocre at best this year and if they continue with the trend of getting bigger linemen, he simply does not fit. He struggled to get to 300lbs and our center outweighs him by 15 pounds. He's miscast here and I think a ZBS team might give us a decent pick for him.

Athyba Rubin is better at the fundamentals of being a nose tackle within the 3-4 than Rogers. Shaun Rogers is far and away the better player and athlete, but if they can't deal him, move him to defensive end let him wreak havoc from there. Rubin on the other hand, enabled our linebackers to make far more plays than when Rogers was in there. I wanted Rubin in '08, we got him, and I think he's a long term solution to start there. He should keep getting better and they should draft another guy like Rubin to develop into that position.

I see absolutely no benefit to switching to the 4-3. None whatsoever. I see no one out there right now that would be better than Mangini. Hold onto him another year and if it doesn't work, then Holmgren can take a swing at Gruden if he wants or someone else
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Old 01-06-2010, 11:30 PM    (permalink
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Holmgren offered Cribbs 1.4 million/yr. WHAT A JOKE!

******* Roscoe Parrish and Andra Davis make around 4 mil and Hester 5.5 mil.

Cribbs is better than all of those guys by a mile.

I'll give Holmgren the benefit of the doubt on most everything, but not this.

If he doesn't get it done, then **** him.

Cribbs twitters:

"Thanks everyone, I love playing for the browns & put my all in to it, but it doesn’t look good 4me at this point on returning…”

“I don’t believe I made the to do list for the team in 2010….”

– Cleveland returner/wide receiver Josh Cribbs
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Old 01-07-2010, 01:48 AM    (permalink
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Cribbs signed a contract which is good for 3 more years, he has no option but to play for the Browns. He may hold out but if Holmgren doesn't want to give him more, he doesn't have to.
This is why a rookie salary cap will not likely be put into place, for every top 10 pick who is overpaid, you can get 2 or 3 rookies tied up for years at a low pay with no choice but to play.
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Old 01-07-2010, 07:00 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
Cribbs signed a contract which is good for 3 more years, he has no option but to play for the Browns. He may hold out but if Holmgren doesn't want to give him more, he doesn't have to.
This is why a rookie salary cap will not likely be put into place, for every top 10 pick who is overpaid, you can get 2 or 3 rookies tied up for years at a low pay with no choice but to play.
Actually one of his options is forcing a trade. I doubt Holmgren would let him sit out all year. Sometimes players outplay their contracts. For 3 years he played for essentially a minimum salary.

He deserves a raise, just like Holmgren said. If the longsnapper who is on the field 8-10 times per game gets 5 million, Cribbs deserves at least that. I'd like to see 5 years 25-30 million. More than fair.
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Old 01-07-2010, 07:28 AM    (permalink
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if Holmgren gives Cribbs $25-30 million over 5 years, then he's a moron.

Devin Hester's contract was idiotic and he doesn't even do kick returns anymore... he's a mediocre receiver.

Roscoe Parrish, while his contract is still stupid, at least plays another position competently.

Andre Davis' contract just shows that Houston was stupid.

Does Cribbs deserve more money? Sure, but at the end of the day, he's a kick returner who can't play another position outside of wildcat QB and kick returners have short shelf lives in general. And he does have 3 years left on his contract, so he's stuck. What's he gonna do? Hold out. I doubt he can afford it.
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Old 01-07-2010, 08:14 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by wonderbredd24 View Post
if Holmgren gives Cribbs $25-30 million over 5 years, then he's a moron.

Devin Hester's contract was idiotic and he doesn't even do kick returns anymore... he's a mediocre receiver.

Roscoe Parrish, while his contract is still stupid, at least plays another position competently.

Andre Davis' contract just shows that Houston was stupid.

Does Cribbs deserve more money? Sure, but at the end of the day, he's a kick returner who can't play another position outside of wildcat QB and kick returners have short shelf lives in general. And he does have 3 years left on his contract, so he's stuck. What's he gonna do? Hold out. I doubt he can afford it.
True, but he does play our two most productive offensive positions (returner and wildcat QB) right now, and does it better than possibly anyone in the league on a bad team. It probably wouldn't be the best deal ever conceived by a GM, but for a player that does so much and wants to play for our bad team so bad, I wouldn't be upset at all if he got 4-5 mil a year.
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Old 01-07-2010, 10:15 AM    (permalink
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This sounds bad.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=090...s&confirm=true

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"We're going to formally put in a request for a trade," J.R. Rickert, Cribbs' other agent, told NFL Network's Jason La Canfora. "He will not set foot in that facility again. If they had offered even something like $2.5 million per season, we could have worked with them, but to me, this offer is indefensible."

Rickert said Browns vice president of football administration Dawn Aponte, who handles contract negotiations, told him the offer was final and that Holmgren was in agreement with her.

"Dawn said this was it, this was their offer," Rickert said. "She said it would be 1.4 today, 1.4 in March and 1.4 in August."

...

"I did all the playing I'm going to play on this contract," Cribbs said. "I ain't doing nothing. I'm not showing my face until it's right."
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Old 01-07-2010, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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The Josh Cribbs Situation is a prime example why a player should hold out for a new contract every chance he gets. The reason: THIS is how owners treat the players...

All the time they told him "play, and your contract will be taken care of after the season". Didn't happen last year. Now this joke offer. All while the best return man in the league is playing for league minimum, giving everything he got for the team.

Right now I'm ashamed to be a Browns fan.
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Old 01-07-2010, 12:07 PM    (permalink
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Cribbs' agent has already basically set a figure of $2.5 per year, which I think is good for both sides...definitely not unreasonable. Holmgren would be foolish to let this drag on as Cribbs is a very important cog in the Cleveland wheel right now, both from an on-field standpoint as well as a fan standpoint.
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Old 01-07-2010, 05:09 PM    (permalink
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Looks like Mangini will be retained
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Old 01-07-2010, 06:43 PM    (permalink
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Old 01-08-2010, 02:00 PM    (permalink
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Pay Cribbs 5 million a year? That is ridiculous. He is worth 2 million max. I personally think he should play out the remainder of his contract. Returnmen have very short lived careers. In most cases returnmen have a 4-6 year window in which they are special. Cribbs is sitting in year 5. So you want to offer him 30 million over 5 years? Seriously? What if he is just like every other returnman? What if this past year was his last productive year? We are going to be paying him that much money to do nothing! We all know he can't play receiver, and the Wildcat is just a gimmick offense. It's not a stable, we only run it about 8 times a game.. 30 million isn't worth a kick returner and a wildcat QB who can't play receiver.

If we can get decent trade value for him, I say pull the trigger and let someone else pay him.. not out of spite... just b/c I think the Cribbs era is coming to a close on the field.
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Old 01-08-2010, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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To be honest, Holmgren has a long to do list. Cribbs agent didn't speak with Holmgren. Give holmgren a break here guys, he said he thinks players should be payed accordingly... we'll see what happens when he's done interviewing all the people who are more important that Cribbs.
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Old 01-11-2010, 02:27 AM    (permalink
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if Holmgren gives Cribbs $25-30 million over 5 years, then he's a moron.

Devin Hester's contract was idiotic and he doesn't even do kick returns anymore... he's a mediocre receiver.

Roscoe Parrish, while his contract is still stupid, at least plays another position competently.

Andre Davis' contract just shows that Houston was stupid.

Does Cribbs deserve more money? Sure, but at the end of the day, he's a kick returner who can't play another position outside of wildcat QB and kick returners have short shelf lives in general. And he does have 3 years left on his contract, so he's stuck. What's he gonna do? Hold out. I doubt he can afford it.
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Originally Posted by MattyFos View Post
Pay Cribbs 5 million a year? That is ridiculous. He is worth 2 million max. I personally think he should play out the remainder of his contract. Returnmen have very short lived careers. In most cases returnmen have a 4-6 year window in which they are special. Cribbs is sitting in year 5. So you want to offer him 30 million over 5 years? Seriously? What if he is just like every other returnman? What if this past year was his last productive year? We are going to be paying him that much money to do nothing! We all know he can't play receiver, and the Wildcat is just a gimmick offense. It's not a stable, we only run it about 8 times a game.. 30 million isn't worth a kick returner and a wildcat QB who can't play receiver.

If we can get decent trade value for him, I say pull the trigger and let someone else pay him.. not out of spite... just b/c I think the Cribbs era is coming to a close on the field.

Returnmen have short careers? Really? I guess if they suck, but if they're good and stay healthy, they stick around forever.

In case you didn't notice, we wouldn't have won any games this year without Cribbs. As a game changer he was probably the best in the NFL this season. Not many players in the league can single handedly defeat teams. His value is beyond that of a returner/wildcat guy. As a RB/WR/KR/ST he's the most dynamic offensive player in the league-that offer was indeed an insult.

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Originally Posted by PickedOffTwice View Post
The Josh Cribbs Situation is a prime example why a player should hold out for a new contract every chance he gets. The reason: THIS is how owners treat the players...

All the time they told him "play, and your contract will be taken care of after the season". Didn't happen last year. Now this joke offer. All while the best return man in league history is playing for league minimum, giving everything he got for the team.

Right now I'm ashamed to be a Browns fan.
This.
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