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Old 01-11-2010, 04:07 AM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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Plenty of GM/Presidents tell their players to shove it since they can only hold out for so long before they show up to play. Some give in and give their players what they deserve but not too many.
Hard to say which way Holmgren will go. If Cribbs is pissed and has an off year, the team will likely lose a ton of money because he is one of the few guys who sells tickets for this franchise. They could lose a lot more than 5 million dollars if the fans turn away from buying tickets especially if he holds out for a long time.
Hopefully some sort of compromise is reached and he comes into camp happy.
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Old 01-11-2010, 04:15 PM    (permalink
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The most dynamic offensive player in the league?
I saw a guy who couldn't run a sharp route to save his life, a guy who doesn't know where the first down marker is.
We didn't see much running between the tackles (which I would have liked) but when he lines up as wildcat we're basically airmailing our play to the defense. How many wildcat runs were for 0-2 yards?
I know how important Cribbs was to our wins this year. I made that very argument on another site when we were ranking him on all-time return man list. He shows up when we need him... but 5 million a year is WAY too much and that was the point I'm making.

Return men stick around forever if they're good and healthy? Name one who played returnman (primarily) for more than 6 years.. They all have to make a transition to another position. Hester tries to play receiver, Metcalf tried playing running back.. Cribbs is trying to play receiver.
When I say primarily.. don't give me Deion.. b/c he was a corner and that was why he was on the team. Punt return Deion was a bonus for the Cowboys.
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Old 01-11-2010, 09:46 PM    (permalink
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The most dynamic offensive player in the league?
I saw a guy who couldn't run a sharp route to save his life, a guy who doesn't know where the first down marker is.
We didn't see much running between the tackles (which I would have liked) but when he lines up as wildcat we're basically airmailing our play to the defense. How many wildcat runs were for 0-2 yards?
I know how important Cribbs was to our wins this year. I made that very argument on another site when we were ranking him on all-time return man list. He shows up when we need him... but 5 million a year is WAY too much and that was the point I'm making.

Return men stick around forever if they're good and healthy? Name one who played returnman (primarily) for more than 6 years.. They all have to make a transition to another position. Hester tries to play receiver, Metcalf tried playing running back.. Cribbs is trying to play receiver.
When I say primarily.. don't give me Deion.. b/c he was a corner and that was why he was on the team. Punt return Deion was a bonus for the Cowboys.
Dynamic-as in the ability to make a game changing play at numerous positions. Consistently did this maby more than any other player in 09.

Averaged about 6ypc or so right?

Didn't realize you were talking about strictly return guys-who does anymore anyways? Only guy comes to mind is Brian Mitchell i guess.

Metcalf tried playing running back.. That's harsh. My favorite player growing up was a great offensive player at WR/RB/KR. Cribbs is WR/RB/Wildcat QB-which by the way is going nowhere.

My point is that offering him 1.4 again was an insult.
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Old 01-15-2010, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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Dynamic-as in the ability to make a game changing play at numerous positions. Consistently did this maby more than any other player in 09.

Averaged about 6ypc or so right?

Didn't realize you were talking about strictly return guys-who does anymore anyways? Only guy comes to mind is Brian Mitchell i guess.

Metcalf tried playing running back.. That's harsh. My favorite player growing up was a great offensive player at WR/RB/KR. Cribbs is WR/RB/Wildcat QB-which by the way is going nowhere.

My point is that offering him 1.4 again was an insult.
1.4 may be an insult to Cribbs and to you. But I'm just making the point that the guy throwing Hester money into the conversation is insulting me, the organization and fans who have a knowledge NFL history. He's not worth anything more than 2 million. I just think if Cribbs wants to be a Brown he'd better take the 1.4 and shut up. Or he'll find himself returning for another team next year...
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Old 01-16-2010, 09:17 AM    (permalink
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That's a tough stance to take on a guy who's the best player on his team. I hope Heckart and Holmgrem see more value in our mvp.
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Old 01-16-2010, 09:20 AM    (permalink
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That's a tough stance to take on a guy who's the best player on his team. I hope Heckart and Holmgrem see more value in our mvp.
He's not the team's MVP and definitely not the best player, but if he were, that says more about how horrid this team rather is than how good Cribbs is
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Old 01-16-2010, 01:50 PM    (permalink
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He's not the team's MVP and definitely not the best player, but if he were, that says more about how horrid this team rather is than how good Cribbs is
I see two guys who you could make a case for as better than Josh. Joe Thomas and Shawn Rogers. Yes the team is bad, but to say Josh isn't that good, when everyone knows he is our only weapon, and they know that they have to stop him, and he still produces... Well, I think that's pretty unfair.
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Old 01-16-2010, 07:42 PM    (permalink
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Cribbs isn't the best player on the team. He's a special team ace as well as a RB in the Wild Cat.

Stop with the notions that he needs to be paid some multi-million dollar deal. How can you justify a $20+ mil deal that I've read in this thread for a guy who returns and covers kicks and gets less than 10 touches a game in the offense.

I would even go as far to say that if it's true that the 9ers would offer a first for Cribbs I say go for it.
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Old 01-16-2010, 09:08 PM    (permalink
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Browns should stick with Quinn and see how he goes with someone to throw to. Possibly bring in Troy Smith. Vincent Jackson and Miles Austin would be good to pick up in the free agents as well as Brandon Marshall who has yet to find his best form. A big man like jared gaither to cover the right tackle position. Demeco Ryans or Karlos Dansby would help aswell. Joe Haden would be a good pick in the draft and pick up nick collins in the FA otherwise try and move up to take Berry.

Would love to have a strong superstar running back as well. dont know if there is anyone available right now tho, I am still a fan of Reggie Bush and think he could still live up to his potential.

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Old 01-16-2010, 09:17 PM    (permalink
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Browns should stick with Quinn and see how he goes with someone to throw to. Possibly bring in Troy Smith. Vincent Jackson and Miles Austin would be good to pick up in the free agents as well as Brandon Marshall who has yet to find his best form. A big man like jared gaither to cover the right tackle position. Demeco Ryans or Karlos Dansby would help aswell. Joe Haden would be a good pick in the draft and pick up nick collins in the FA otherwise try and move up to take Berry.

Would love to have a strong superstar running back as well. dont know if there is anyone available right now tho, I am still a fan of Reggie Bush and think he could still live up to his potential.
How realistic of you.
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Old 01-16-2010, 09:26 PM    (permalink
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How realistic of you.
i dont mean to get it all mate. i just mean try and get someone. instead of doing nothing.
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Old 01-16-2010, 09:33 PM    (permalink
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And all of those guys are RFA's if there isn't a new CBA.

I'm done with Quinn.
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Old 01-17-2010, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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I would trade Cribbs for a first rounder any day. I'd look hard if a mid to high second round was offered too. Name the KR on any of the playoff teams, Harvin? Jones? Bush on punts? A guy at his position won't make you a great team. Those guys are studs at their own positions.

I'd expect DA, and either shaun rogers or corey williams to be moved. Although I like the idea of rogers at DE with rubin in the middle, he may bring great value in a trade too. Call me crazy but I think Williams, now healthy, could bring a 2nd rounder from a 43 team.
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Old 01-17-2010, 05:26 PM    (permalink
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I would trade Cribbs for a first rounder any day. I'd look hard if a mid to high second round was offered too. Name the KR on any of the playoff teams, Harvin? Jones? Bush on punts? A guy at his position won't make you a great team. Those guys are studs at their own positions.

I'd expect DA, and either shaun rogers or corey williams to be moved. Although I like the idea of rogers at DE with rubin in the middle, he may bring great value in a trade too. Call me crazy but I think Williams, now healthy, could bring a 2nd rounder from a 43 team.
I agree with the first half of your post.. But I think we need to keep all of the talent we have on our DLine. The game is won on the line of scrimmage.. we need to keep those big versatile guys on D and actually BRING PRESSURE from the linebackers on the opposing QB's.. Our Secondary gets burned most games b/c the opposing QB has all day to stand in the pocket and avoid our 3 man rush. Trading Rogers or Williams away would not be in our best interest.

EDIT*
I think DA will be moved as well. I can see Holmgren drafting a senior QB in the draft like Tony Pike in the mid rounds.

The Canton rep did a piece on our QB situation toady (Sun Jan 17) and how Holmgren likes Tim Tebow. Knowing this, if Tebow falls past the Jaguars and falls into the second.. Holmgren will wither grab him with our pick or trade up for him. Not sure how I feel about this. I think Tebow isn't an ideal QB prospect.. but he has something about him that inspires teams to play better, he's a great guy off the field, and His mechanics are better than most people think.
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Old 01-17-2010, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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Is there any smoke to Rogers being moved...or is that just hypothetical. I know last year he wanted to be moved...and with no Cap in place moving him becomes a lot easier for a team to handle now than last year for a field product standpoint.

If a team offered a 2nd round pick to a disgruntled player would it make sense for the Browns. Or is he not disgruntled anymore? I guess I'm just looking for an update on his feelings towards the organization and how likely they'd be to move him to bring in ammunition via the draft or young players.
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Old 01-17-2010, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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Is there any smoke to Rogers being moved...or is that just hypothetical. I know last year he wanted to be moved...and with no Cap in place moving him becomes a lot easier for a team to handle now than last year for a field product standpoint.

If a team offered a 2nd round pick to a disgruntled player would it make sense for the Browns. Or is he not disgruntled anymore? I guess I'm just looking for an update on his feelings towards the organization and how likely they'd be to move him to bring in ammunition via the draft or young players.
I don't know if there's any fire for all the smoke. The media hates Cleveland and all they do is report the supposedly bad and never the real story (like the whole water bottle fine), IMO. Rogers was angry over a "snub" when Mangini walked right by him without saying a word when he was just hired. The two went out to lunch and everything was fine from that point on.

It would make sense to trade Rogers. Like you said, there will be no cap hit and Rogers will be 31. Plus Rubin is an arguably better NT than Rogers is. Rogers is too undisciplined for a 3-4 NT often shooting the gaps and ruining the gap integrity. The Browns defense took a leap forward once Rogers went on IR with a broken leg and Rubin stepped in.

I wouldn't be shocked to see either Rogers or Corey Williams traded this offseason. I personally would prefer to keep Rogers and try him at DE but if we get something to help us win later, I would be all for it.
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Old 01-17-2010, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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Some guys on the "hot seat" and their current contract status...

Brady Quinn
2010 700k
2011 700k
2012 FREE AGENT

Derek Anderson
2010 7.45M + 2M Roster Bonus (due in March)
2011 FREE AGENT

Eric Steinbach
2010 5.75M
2011 6.25M
2012 6.00M
2013 6.25M
2014 FREE AGENT

Shaun Rogers
2010 6.9M
2011 5.5M
2012 5.6M
2013 5.5M
2014 7M (voidable)
2015 FREE AGENT

Corey Williams
2010 4.2M + 1.7 Roster Bonus (March?)
2011 4.9M
2012 4.9M
2013 5.4M
2014 FREE AGENT

Donte Stallworth
2010 1.5M
2011 2.775M
2012 4.55M
2013 5.65M
2014 5.95M
2015 FREE AGENT
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:15 PM    (permalink
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I don't know if there's any fire for all the smoke. The media hates Cleveland and all they do is report the supposedly bad and never the real story (like the whole water bottle fine), IMO. Rogers was angry over a "snub" when Mangini walked right by him without saying a word when he was just hired. The two went out to lunch and everything was fine from that point on.

It would make sense to trade Rogers. Like you said, there will be no cap hit and Rogers will be 31. Plus Rubin is an arguably better NT than Rogers is. Rogers is too undisciplined for a 3-4 NT often shooting the gaps and ruining the gap integrity. The Browns defense took a leap forward once Rogers went on IR with a broken leg and Rubin stepped in.

I wouldn't be shocked to see either Rogers or Corey Williams traded this offseason. I personally would prefer to keep Rogers and try him at DE but if we get something to help us win later, I would be all for it.
Then slide Rogers to DE. He's too talented to trade him away.... Well, I actually made this same argument for K2 and Braylon.. so I guess this argument falls on deaf ears (Mangini's)
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I've seen my fair share of nasty porn in my days, things that are much worse than Rex Ryan's videos, but something about knowing that Rex is behind the camera makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable.
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:30 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MattyFos View Post
Then slide Rogers to DE. He's too talented to trade him away.... Well, I actually made this same argument for K2 and Braylon.. so I guess this argument falls on deaf ears (Mangini's)
I was for the Winslow and Edwards trade.

Winslow was one of my favorite Browns players. He was tough, had a rare size/speed combo, great hands and was a playmaker although he was definitely a liability in blocking. He left a void when we traded him to Tampa, but look at all the pros in the trade. We ended up Mohammed Massoquoi who will be a legit starting WR, we don't have to pay Winslow high contract, we don't have to try and guess how much longer Winslow can be effective with his (insert number) knee surgeries and the fact that it seems like he's always playing hurt (that separated shoulder his last season in Cleveland), a fifth round pick still to add even more to the trade and the fact that Evan Moore while young and only a handful of games, looks to be a promising player at the position.

Braylon has had one good season in his entire career, has been nothing special for New York to the point that there's a ton of speculation of him not being retained next year. Braylon is facing a suspension to start next season and a suspended 180 jail sentence for punching LeBron's friend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan Edwards, Braylon's father
“Am I worried about him getting a reputation for dropping the football? No. Because let’s be honest — he’s earned it.”
New York got an under-preforming WR who is still battling issues catching the ball, plus off the field issues, is going to be a FA and want more $$$ than his ass is actually worth. We got Stuckey who hasn't been anything special, Trusnik who is a great special teamer and spot LB a 3rd (could have been a 2nd if Edwards wasn't so bad) and a 5th.

While Rogers still has value and could succeed at DE can he be effective in 2 years or so when we can start being competitive? He's turning 31 and coming off of a broken leg. I wouldn't mind keeping him, playing him at DE and NT and having him be in Cleveland for the rest of his career, but I also wouldn't mind trading him away and getting good value for him.

Rogers (or what we get in return for Rogers) will help us either way, but Anderson, Stallworth and Corey Williams all need to go.
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:13 AM    (permalink
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Alright, we essentially traded Kellen for MoMass Kellen had 884 yards and 5 TD's for Tamps Bay. Kellen also had THREE different QB's. Josh Johnson (Runner), Byron Leftwich (Journey man now-a-days) Josh Freeman (Rookie)
Those are stellar numbers and you can make a case for Kellen's QB situation 1. worse than the Browns 2. inconsistent at best. How many passes did Kellen catch in Brady's debut last year v.s. Denver.. I think 8 or 9 possibly 10. Wouldn't it be smart to keep Kellen.. you know.. b/c our he was our STARTING QUARTERBACKS FAVORITE TARGET! Yes, he hurt his shoulder last year.. but he didn't miss any games til the end of the season when we gave up and were playing Ken Dorsey and Bruce Gradkowski. He also hurt his shoulder in 2007 and played the entire season. He was quoted as saying he couldn't brush his own teeth until the Thursday after games. He was riddled with injuries.. but when you're 6'4 and have a big bady.. there's a good chance somebody will hit you more often than not. He played through injuries. Then gets screwed by Phil Savage and the filthy Browns training facilities giving him a staph infection (Not the first Brown to get one.. Bentley, Jo Juri come to mind.)
I want to address your MoMass good starter and Braylon I don't know what you said.. was it not good in New York.. I wrote the following on a Cleveland Sports website.. I copied and pasted it for all of my bud's here at DC Forum. I hope you enjoy it.. maybe it'll open your eyes on how "ineffective" Braylon was for the NYJ..
.
.
So I crunched the numbers of Braylon and Sanchez then Massaquoi and BADQ (Brady-Anderson-Derek-Quinn).. Braylon played with Sanchez for only 11 games (Sanchez sat out a game, I subtracted Braylon’s number from that game). Then I crunched the numbers of MoMass (15 games… minus the Denver game, when he got shut out)and combined the numbers of Quinn (minus Denver game) and Anderson.
All of these Braylon numbers are with Sanchez at QB. All of the MoMass numbers are combined DA and BQ (BADQ)

Braylon averaged 3.18 catches/game, 49.18 yards/game, 0.36 TD’s/game

MoMass averaged 2.66 catches/game, 41.6 yards/game, 0.2 TD’s/game

Then I did percentages of Braylon to Sanchez’ stats as a whole and MoMass to BADQ’s stats as a whole.

Braylon caught 24% of Sanchez’ completions, resulting in 29% of Sanchez’ yards, and 50% of Sanchez’ TD’s (In those 11 games)

MoMass caught 17% of BADQ’s completions, resulting in 23% of BADQ’s yards, and 25% of BADQ’s TD’s (In those 15 games)

Take those numbers as you want. I’m running on energy drinks and no sleep. And I miss Barylon.. MoMass is no substitute
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameronCropper View Post
I've seen my fair share of nasty porn in my days, things that are much worse than Rex Ryan's videos, but something about knowing that Rex is behind the camera makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable.
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:28 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MattyFos View Post
lots of stuff...
I'm not totally sure what you were going for with the Braylon/MoMass comparison. You are comparing a 5th year player to a Rookie, and the stats are not significantly better at all. Extrapolating your calculations across 16 games:

Braylon: 51 - 787 - 6

MoMass: 43 - 666 - 3

These are terrible stat lines for any #1 WR.

About Kellen. You can make a case that it was a bad move... but you can make a case the other way too. I'm not sure how I feel. I hated him at first, but he really grew on me.
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by fear the elf View Post
I'm not totally sure what you were going for with the Braylon/MoMass comparison. You are comparing a 5th year player to a Rookie, and the stats are not significantly better at all. Extrapolating your calculations across 16 games:

Braylon: 51 - 787 - 6

MoMass: 43 - 666 - 3

These are terrible stat lines for any #1 WR.

About Kellen. You can make a case that it was a bad move... but you can make a case the other way too. I'm not sure how I feel. I hated him at first, but he really grew on me.
yes, I'm comparing a 5th year to a rook.. I'm also going on a game status, not the whole. And Braylon with Sanchez (rook) v.s MoMass and DABQ (1 pro bowl and essentially a guy in his rookie season as starts are concerned). Sanchez didn't light up the stat sheet.. but Braylon was the shining light in their passing game.. yes, his number were down from 2007.. but Sanchez didn't throw for 3000+ yrds and 30+ TD's like DA did in 2007
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Originally Posted by CameronCropper View Post
I've seen my fair share of nasty porn in my days, things that are much worse than Rex Ryan's videos, but something about knowing that Rex is behind the camera makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable.
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:57 AM    (permalink
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MoMass was a rookie. K2 and Braylon have much much much much much bigger contracts, and are both primadonnas (Braylon moreso than Kellen), and Kellen has that knee that will probably keep him from playing past 30 and he gets hurt often as well. I wouldn't have minded keeping Winslow Solja, but Edwards was a good trade. Getting anything at all for Sir Dropsandbitchesalot is a bargain.
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Old 01-18-2010, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
MoMass was a rookie. K2 and Braylon have much much much much much bigger contracts, and are both primadonnas (Braylon moreso than Kellen), and Kellen has that knee that will probably keep him from playing past 30 and he gets hurt often as well. I wouldn't have minded keeping Winslow Solja, but Edwards was a good trade. Getting anything at all for Sir Dropsandbitchesalot is a bargain.
You don't mind the Browns bringing in Holgren for up to 50 million dollars and Heckert for a hefty sum.. but you hate players making money?
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Originally Posted by CameronCropper View Post
I've seen my fair share of nasty porn in my days, things that are much worse than Rex Ryan's videos, but something about knowing that Rex is behind the camera makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable.
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Old 01-18-2010, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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Well Holmgren and Heckert don't count against a salary cap.
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