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Old 10-11-2011, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MidwayMonster31 View Post
I'm sure some other team would take a shot at Webb thanks to his physical tools. If someone with a power scheme would keep him on the bench for two or three years (like the Bears were supposed to) and groom him to be a right tackle, he might have done okay.
He's not even a powerful player. On more than one occassional last night he got driven right back by guys he has 50 pounds on. Plus, he gets in these little hand fights that end up looking like a game of patty cake.
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Old 10-12-2011, 09:10 AM    (permalink
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Calm down, he's obviously joking.

I agree that this team is probably a 7-8 win operation, and that's probably not enough to have the total purge that is necessary.

It's not that Angelo and Lovie are awful at their jobs. I think Angelo is still a fantastic evaluator of defensive talent, even if he's slipped a bit in recent years, and his two biggest moves (Cutler, Peppers) were both ballsy and fantastic.

I've always been less enamored with Lovie. I think he's smart enough to be a solid defensive coordinator or head coach in college, but lacks the natural cerebralness to be an NFL head coach (he's also a total nepotist, which infuriates me to no end). That said, he's got a solid W/L record, and he can at least engender the loyalty of his players, whatever that's worth.

The problem is that we've been trying this since 2004, and we're going in the wrong direction. This isn't college football where it's ok to have the same coach for 20-30 years; sometimes change for the sake of change is a good thing.
A couple years ago I would have agreed with you about Angelo but I don't think he has drafted an impact defensive player since Daniel Manning in 2005 draft. Maybe Henry Melton. With so many disappointing picks in the first three rounds like Bazuin, Okwo, Marcus Harrison, Jarron Gilbert, Steltz, Major Wright (maybe even Paea) and I don't see much difference in his ability evaluate talent for either side of the ball. Make no mistake, this defense has had to look to FA for infusions of talent and even there our record has been pretty spotty(Archuletta, Darwin Walker, Meriweather, etc.).

Combined with the complete and utter failure on the offensive side of ball and I don't really see what Angelo brings to the table anymore. We are a bad drafting team. Plain and simple. Having the top drafting team in the league in Green Bay right next door certainly provides a stark contrast.

You hit the nail on the head with Lovie though. He does well with players but hiring his BFFs for coordinators is alarming. I think people give too much credit to Marinelli considering the defense didn't take the next step under his watch until we got Peppers but whatever. At least Angelo gave Martz a thumbs down before finally relenting. Lovie's in game coaching appears to be getting worse if that is even possible.
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Old 10-12-2011, 09:24 AM    (permalink
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We haven't found any defensive superstars, no, but we haven't exactly dedicated that many resources to it either. Bazuin was the 62nd pick in the draft, and everyone else you mentioned was taken in the 3rd round or later (Wright and Paea are too young). As much as draftnicks like to salivate over those rounds on this board, the expectation is that you're drafting busts or special teams guys. It would have been nice for at least one of those guys to pan out, but I don't think it's that big of a deal.

The real issue is that we've had to continually waste 1st round picks on offensive guys to cover for the offensive guys that didn't work out in the first place. Cutler replaced Grossman. Forte replaced Benson. We still don't have a LT worth a ****, etc.
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Old 10-12-2011, 09:39 AM    (permalink
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I absolutely disagree that 2nd and 3rd rounders are throwaway picks. Those guys should absolutely be making impacts within 2-3 years.\

"Drafting busts or special teams players" is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. You make it sound like it's pure luck to hit on anyone outside of the first round, which is completely wrong.

In fact, I'd even argue that hitting on guys in that 2nd-3rd round range, even into the middle rounds, is what can take a team from good to great.

The teams who've been most successful in the past decade tend to acquire a handful of truly elite players, then use those "throwaway" picks, as you put them, to surround them with role and niche players to create solid teams.

We've done neither of those things (acquiring elite players in the draft and filling out the rest of the lineup with solid players) well in recent years.

Jerry Angelo has hit on job saving opportunities by trading for Cutler (who should never have been available in the first place if his former team hadn't been stupid beyond belief) and signing Peppers last year.

But now the defensive talent around those guys is getting worse, as is the offensive talent around Cutler. The blame for that is squarely on Jerry Angelo failing to acquire players who are even mediocre. Guys like Gilbert, Okwo, Bazuin, etc. out of the league within 2-3 years.

This team has gone to hell quickly, and it is due primarily to the failure of Jerry Angelo. Without resorting to extreme examples (Matt Millen, Josh McDaniels) it's difficult to find guys who would actually be worse than Angelo is right now.
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Old 10-12-2011, 10:29 AM    (permalink
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First of all, we're talking about one second round pick. One. And it was at the very end of the second round. All but one of Jerry's failures were in the 3rd round and down.

Find the number of 3rd-5th round players to make even one pro-bowl. My guess is that the % is less than 10%.

Which is odd, because for as stupid as my statement apparently was, you subsequently agreed with it when you also noted that the elite players on a team generally come from the first two rounds. Sure, there are exceptions, but for every one exception you come up with, I'll give you ten guys who were role players or total failures.

In regards to your Angelo statement, we've been an above .500 team for the past 3-4 years, so you could start with about half the league.
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Old 10-12-2011, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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Also, I never used half of the words you said I used. Strawman.
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Old 10-12-2011, 10:48 AM    (permalink
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I think "throwaway" picks was the only part I made up.

And I'm not saying that every 3rd round pick should be a pro bowler. You probably are right in that it's less than 10%. But you can get a solid contributor there.

When the Patriots won that string of Superbowls, who did they send to the pro bowl? Brady, Ty Law...maybe Bruschi once or twice...not many at any rate. But they won because they surrounded those guys non-first round picks, undrafted players and castoffs from other teams. They didn't have to play great, but they were plugged in and played average around the elite players.

We're not getting that. Nick Roach is not very good next to Urlacher and Briggs. Our DT situation is messy. Idonije and Tillman are solid most of the time. Our safeties and other corners are typically horrible however.

On offense we have Forte and.....Sanzenbacher? Knox hasn't continued to develop, Hester would ideally be a #3 receiver at most and we traded our only TE because the offensive coordinator got tired of using him.

Our offensive line is an abomination. Webb, Omiyele, Chris Williams (a failed JA first rounder) all horrible. HORRIBLE. It's squarely in the "worst things I've seen in football" category.

We're a horrible, horrible team right now. Our defense is bottom of the league material (despite having a defensive minded HC and GM with tendencies to lean towards defense) and our offense outside of Forte devolves quickly into "whatever Cutler can must after escaping from pressure." If he escapes from pressure...

We need a fresh start. We have a few parts and pieces to build around but currently, no glue to hold them together. A new GM with fresh ideas and a new coach who might actually adjust schemes when it becomes clear the current ones aren't working would be incredible.
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Old 10-12-2011, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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So we're not the Patriots. I agree.
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Old 10-12-2011, 11:47 AM    (permalink
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Also, I never said Jerry shouldn't be fired, I even said in the original post that he should be fired. All I'm saying is that his failure to turn 3rd-5th round guys for the last few years into quality starters is the least of our problems.

The reason why our defense sucks has more to do with our inability to spend high picks on defensive players the last five years because Jerry has continually struck out with offensive players. You can't keep plugging holes in the secondary with 5th round guys and street free agents and expect to be successful.

Unless you're Bill Bellicheck, and nobody else is.
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Old 10-13-2011, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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Im going to agree with BB on this one, a team that can effectively use their mid round picks is going to be a good team. While it is not as easy as hitting on 1st/2nd rounders, a team cannot soley rely on two picks a year to fill the holes on a team. Even if they never start, maybe they develop into a solid backup who is capable of holding their own when a starter goes down. Or as BB said, maybe they just fill a role on the team.

With JA, he has missed on so many players who meet this criteria (Minus Melton, Bennett, and I'll throw Wolfe in bc he was ST).

Looking back at the draft we can see so many players that would have helped this team. I'm not talking about hindsight looking back, I'm talking about those picks where we are hoping to draft X player (ie Quincy Black, Doug Free, SOME OL). Angelo just misses on them, instead trying to find his diamond in the rough...It's not working.
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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Would Jerry Angelo be better served going defense in the first round this year, or sticking to the "we must improve our offensive line" tactic?

I'm thinking that maybe JA will be tempted to draft a DE or CB in the first round if he feels that the value is just too good.
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Old 10-14-2011, 10:50 PM    (permalink
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Im going to agree with BB on this one, a team that can effectively use their mid round picks is going to be a good team. While it is not as easy as hitting on 1st/2nd rounders, a team cannot soley rely on two picks a year to fill the holes on a team. Even if they never start, maybe they develop into a solid backup who is capable of holding their own when a starter goes down. Or as BB said, maybe they just fill a role on the team.
That's great, except it's still not what I said.

I said that when you look at the reasons this team is on the serious decline, the main reason is not because we've failed in rounds 3-5, it's because we've failed in rounds 1-2.

In the time that Angelo has been GM we've spent:

-3 first round picks on quarterbacks
-1 first round and 1 second round picks on runningbacks
-3 first round picks on offensive linemen

Out of those eight picks, we've found 2 good players. We could have been using those other six picks to make our team a hell of a lot better than anything we possibly could have done in the 4th or 5th round.

You give me 6 first round picks and I'll give you 15 picks in the fourth round, and I bet I'll get more than you do.
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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That's great, except it's still not what I said.

I said that when you look at the reasons this team is on the serious decline, the main reason is not because we've failed in rounds 3-5, it's because we've failed in rounds 1-2.

In the time that Angelo has been GM we've spent:

-3 first round picks on quarterbacks
-1 first round and 1 second round picks on runningbacks
-3 first round picks on offensive linemen

Out of those seven picks, we've found 2 good players. We could have been using those other five picks to make our team a hell of a lot better than anything we possibly could have done in the 4th or 5th round.

You give me 5 first round picks and I'll give you 15 picks in the fourth round, and I bet I'll get more than you do.
Exactly. Here's what Angelo has done in the 1st and 2nd rounds since he's been GM:

2002 - Marc Colombo (1st), No 2nd Round Pick
2003 - Michael Haynes, Rex Grossman (1st), Charles Tillman (2nd)
2004 - Tommie Harris (1st), Tank Johnson (2nd)
2005 - Cedric Benson (1st), Mark Bradley (2nd)
2006 - Danieal Manning, Devin Hester (2nd)
2007 - Greg Olsen (1st), Dan Bazuin (2nd)
2008 - Chris Williams (1st), Matt Forte (2nd)
2009 - None (Jay Cutler Trade)
2010 - None (Jay Cutler, Gaines Adams Trade)
2011 - Gabe Carimi (1st), Stephen Paea (2nd)

It's a mixed bag of results. Matt Forte, Jay Cutler, Charles Tillman and Devin Hester have been impact acquisitions via draft/trade. Michael Haynes, Dan Bazuin, Chris Williams, Gaines Adams trade, Tank Johnson, Cedric Benson and Mark Bradley can be considered busts. Marc Colombo and Tommie Harris were a bit of bad luck. Colombo was doing very well until his knee injury and Tommie was the best DT in the league until his knees went to ****.

I think Carimi is going to end up being a very nice pick, but the jury is still out on Paea.

Overall, Jerry hasn't been a bad GM, but I also don't believe he's been a good one either. He's attained average results and therefore I consider him to be an average GM.

But as 51 said the glaring weakness in his drafting has been the first two rounds. He hasn't selected impact players consistently early and that has really hurt us.
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Old 10-15-2011, 10:02 PM    (permalink
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out of all of those only 7 guys remain with the team, 5 from the last 4 years.
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Old 10-17-2011, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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Default Chris Harris Wants to be Traded

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nfl/story...is-wants-trade

We would be more than happy to Chris, if only we could find someone that actually wants you...
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Old 10-17-2011, 12:17 PM    (permalink
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****, we might have to give up a pick so someone else will take him off our hands. Who wants the slowest safety in the league, really?
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Old 10-17-2011, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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It's a bit confusing why he couldn't play special teams, however. He's not fast, but he can hit.
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:47 AM    (permalink
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It's a bit confusing why he couldn't play special teams, however. He's not fast, but he can hit.
Chris Harris seems like one of those guys who thinks he is too good for special teams. Usually you have young guys and career special teamers on kicks and punts, not former starters.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 10-22-2011, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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Olin Kruetz quits on the Saints. What a *****.
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Old 10-23-2011, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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If the season ended today we'd be in the playoffs, for whatever that's worth.
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:33 AM    (permalink
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if the Lions lose against Greenbay, we are 1 win away to tying their record, which is nice!
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Old 10-24-2011, 09:23 AM    (permalink
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Chris Harris seems like one of those guys who thinks he is too good for special teams. Usually you have young guys and career special teamers on kicks and punts, not former starters.
Where does that assumption come from? Harris has always been a team first guy. I assume the team felt he wasnt healthy enough to play last week. He didnt look like himself in that game.
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:08 AM    (permalink
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I finally figured out my frustration with the Bears.

We have the potential every year to be a good team (I say potential bc we have some just average players starting for us/below average). Somehow we find ways to win games.

BUT this team is not built like an elite team that could go to the Super Bowl based on sheer domination.

We're stuck between mediocre and good and it doesn't look to change.

#firejerry
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who retires first: brett favre or aaron rodgers?
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Old 10-25-2011, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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I finally figured out my frustration with the Bears.

We have the potential every year to be a good team (I say potential bc we have some just average players starting for us/below average). Somehow we find ways to win games.

BUT this team is not built like an elite team that could go to the Super Bowl based on sheer domination.

We're stuck between mediocre and good and it doesn't look to change.

#firejerry
If the season ended today, the Bears would be the six seed. I think they end up 10-6, and with wins over Atlanta and Tampa, that should be good enough to make the playoffs. If they make the playoffs, Jerry and Lovie will almost certainly be back.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 10-25-2011, 04:35 PM    (permalink
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If the season ended today, the Bears would be the six seed. I think they end up 10-6, and with wins over Atlanta and Tampa, that should be good enough to make the playoffs. If they make the playoffs, Jerry and Lovie will almost certainly be back.
Yes clearly that is the problem. Lovie I have no issue with right now, it is Jerry for providing a roster which will never be able to beat really good teams.

I have no doubt that because of our schedule that we will have a winning record, but I feel like that is going to be the extent of it.
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