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View Poll Results: Is Channing Frye the most influential NBA PLAYER EVER?
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:00 PM    (permalink
soybean
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
I love how Bill Simmons has completely reversed his opinion though. When Boston assembled the big-3 he was a big fan of it. Now, under similar circumstances, he doesn't think it will work if you don't have an 'alpha-dog.'

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...simmons/070730

Read that article and tell me he isn't using the opposite logic now.

It is ESPN talking head syndrome. Take the common belief and spin it so you can be an iconoclast. The only person who does it better than Bill Simmons is Skip Bayless.
pierce was the alpha dog. Ray allen's and KG's skillset both complimented him really well. (not to mention their incredible bench)
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:00 PM    (permalink
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Weren't the big 3 at the ends of there careers haha

these 3 all have 10+ more years
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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Weren't the big 3 at the ends of there careers haha

these 3 all have 10+ more years
Well maybe not Wade, but yeah I agree, they aren't comparable situations.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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pierce was the alpha dog. Ray allen's and KG's skillset both complimented him really well. (not to mention their incredible bench)
Incredible bench? Come on now. They got those guys in the same way Miami will have to get them now, off the scrap heap.

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Come on, the two situations aren't even that similar. Allen, Pierce, and KG were all on the declines of their career. None of them were even a top 5 player in the league, much less two of the top 3 and another top 10 player. Also, those guys were assembled via trade. There is a lot different in those two situations, and I don't even think they are comparable.

Plus, Simmons is a huge Boston homer, so even if they were comparable situations, he would still support Boston.
Look at the argument though:

The bolded is where I replaced their names, italics is where I made slight accuracy adjustments.

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Now here's where it gets really good: James, Wade and Bosh happen to be wired the exact same way -- three ultracompetitive guys nearing the end of their primes who would sacrifice anything to play on a winner. They have been stuck with miserable supporting casts, all of them are good guys, all of them understand that you only have so many chances to contend. For all three guys, it will be their best team ever, regardless of who's playing with them. Bosh hasn't played with a top-20 player his entire career; neither has James; and Wade hasn't played with one elite scorer since Shaquille O'Neal. For James, his major weakness (crunch-time scoring) gets solved with one proven crunch-time scorers helping him. For Bosh, his major weakness (leadership) gets obscured because he has two intense veterans who know how to deal with the media and lead by example. For Wade, his weakness (a tendency to break down) gets negated because he won't have to carry his team offensively every night.
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Eleven years later, the Celtics find themselves in a similar spot: Three All-Stars coupled with a talented but woefully inexperienced point guard (Rondo), a promising defensive stopper coming off major knee surgery (Tony Allen), a decent backup center who plays hard (Kendrick Perkins), a new Mark Madsen for KG (Brian Scalabrine, who's already working on his high-fives and fist-pumps), two undersized power forwards (Big Baby Glen Davis, Leon Powe), two athletic rookies (Brandon Wallace, Gabe Pruitt) and that's it. There isn't an Eddie Johnson or Mario Elie to be seen. Then again, since they're likely to add one or two more ring-hungry veterans, and since the '08 Eastern Conference is between three and 200 times worse than the '97 Western Conference, who knows? In the words of Chris Shiherlis, the bank is worth the risk.
Their supporting cast and bench was considered a major weakness. The presence of three great players paved the way for Glen Davis and Rajon Rondo to emerge. Everyone else they got off the scrap-heap. Miami has Mario Chalmers, Mike Miller, Joel Anthony and have their sights on Udonis Haslem, Big Z, Raja Bell, Matt Barnes and others.

The only real difference is the method they got together (FA rather than trade) and their ages. If anything that makes this trio more likely to succeed than the Boston situation.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, but that isn't Simmons' point. It isn't about the situations they came from. It is that LeBron has potential to be in the GOAT talk, but he is copping out and taking the easy path to rings. Bosh and Wade he is fine with, but LeBron being a coward is what makes him mad, and I tend to agree.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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My thoughts on the Bill Simmons article

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Old 07-12-2010, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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He won't be in the GOAT talk until he gets this:

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Old 07-12-2010, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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I can't wait to see the Heat fail.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, but that isn't Simmons' point. It isn't about the situations they came from. It is that LeBron has potential to be in the GOAT talk, but he is copping out and taking the easy path to rings. Bosh and Wade he is fine with, but LeBron being a coward is what makes him mad, and I tend to agree.
not to mention he's a liar. saying he came to his decision thursday morning? cmon, really?
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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I can't wait to see the Heat fail.
I think that would be the greatest thing in all of sports.

They'd have to make a ESPN 30 for 30 document titled "the best that never was"
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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He won't be in the GOAT talk until he gets this:

LeBron will never be in the GOAT talk, because he chose to take a back seat.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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I hate Skip Bayless so much, most everyone else I'm fine with not disagreeing with but there really can't be a worse analyst out there then him. I've never seen a guy get so much pleasure from spewing anything negative Lebron out of his mouth. I get it, you don't like the guy, but can't analyst at least act objectively? He acts like he gets a boner anytime he can say something about Lebron, and he loves to twist every little thing he does into something major.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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LeBron will never be in the GOAT talk, because he chose to take a back seat.
How is he taking a backseat when he's clearly the best player?
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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How is he taking a backseat when he's clearly the best player?
Because it is Wade's team. Wade is gonna be taking the last shots. LeBron is the best player, but it isn't his team.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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Moses Malone, 1982 NBA MVP went to "Dr. J's team."

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Philadelphia added the 1982 NBA Most Valuable Player to a mix that already included Julius Erving, Andrew Toney, Maurice Cheeks and Bobby Jones. The result was an NBA championship—and the second straight MVP Award for Malone (becoming the only NBA player ever to win the MVP award in consecutive seasons with two different teams, a feat only matched by Barry Bonds (1992–93) in the four major sports).
Didn't seem to hurt his legacy too much.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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So I guess if someone has a goal that's very important to them, they should not take the best opportunity to achieve that goal. Instead, they should intentionally put themselves in a situation that will hurt their chances of reaching their goal all for the reason of pleasing other people.


Hmm....For some reason that just doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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So I guess if someone has a goal that's very important to them, they should not take the best opportunity to achieve that goal. Instead, they should intentionally put themselves in a situation that will hurt their chances of reaching their goal all for the reason of pleasing other people.


Hmm....For some reason that just doesn't make sense to me.

He goes to Cleveland and they would have been the 4th best team in the East. He would show that winning doesn't matter to him.

He goes to NY and he is in the 3rd best team in the East. Playing there only because he loves "fame" and money.

He goes to Chicago and is in the best team in the East, but it is Derrick Rose's team and Michael Jordan's city.

Maybe he should have gone to the Clippers, then he would be respected!
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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Because it is Wade's team. Wade is gonna be taking the last shots. LeBron is the best player, but it isn't his team.
I didn't know you could see the future, cool. If it happens so be it, but you clearly have no idea who will be taking the last shot, and it's a big question for me too but it's pretty ignorant to "assume" it'll be Wade because he played for Miami first.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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So I guess if someone has a goal that's very important to them, they should not take the best opportunity to achieve that goal. Instead, they should intentionally put themselves in a situation that will hurt their chances of reaching their goal all for the reason of pleasing other people.


Hmm....For some reason that just doesn't make sense to me.
Thank you. Hollly sheet. Would anyone believed Lebron's contract would start at 14.5 million? He was a FREE agent. I wouldn't want to play for Dan Gilbert either.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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Moses Malone, 1982 NBA MVP went to "Dr. J's team."

Didn't seem to hurt his legacy too much.
hmmm well it kind of does. even if that's the exception, everyone will still remember the sixers for Dr. J first Malone second.

Same with Scottie Pippen, he was placed on the top 50 list but everyone remembers him as Jordan's running mate.

Lebron will probably even win another mvp (because of his ridiculous triangle numbers) but it will still be seen as Wade's team. it's just not that easy a feat to insurmount.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
I didn't know you could see the future, cool. If it happens so be it, but you clearly have no idea who will be taking the last shot, and it's a big question for me too but it's pretty ignorant to "assume" it'll be Wade because he played for Miami first.

Wade's Miami heroics are in the past. This team is completely different, even if Haslem comes back. The "team" won't be Wade's. The fans and organization will be on Wade's side, initially. If LeBron James simply plays like he has in the past, if he wins, then none of what has happened before will matter. He will be the best, most exciting, most famous player, on the best team, period.

The only way the "Wade's team" argument will matter is if this does not work. Then James will be the recipient of blame.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:41 PM    (permalink
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Because it is Wade's team. Wade is gonna be taking the last shots. LeBron is the best player, but it isn't his team.
Yeah I believe a reporter even asked Bron or Wade that and they said if Bosh takes it and and makes it we gon rally, if Wade takes it and missed we ognna rally behind him it is just what Coach spo draws up.. something along those lines.

Wade won't be taking the last shots all the time..
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Coples is that dude.
Go Amare.

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Old 07-12-2010, 03:42 PM    (permalink
SeanTaylorRIP
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Magic sign Quentin Richardson to a 2 year deal. Decreases the chances of matching Redick offer. Hopefully they can keep the guys motivated, because VC and Richardson are two of the laziest 2 guards in the NBA.

BTW great summer league matchup tonight. John Wall going up against Eric Bledsoe. Also in the game will be Blake Griffin's return, going up against a bigger and more athletic Javale Mcgee. It will probably end up however Griffin going up against Trevor Booker and Mcgee against Deandre Jordan. Also will be interesting to see Aminu's first game since I think he will bust hard. We could also see tonight Sofoklis Schortsanitis against Corsley Edwards, the floor might be in danger of being cracked.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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Lebron did go for the sure thing and I understand why he did but to me it is still him admiting he can't win a ring without having "the guy" on his team. He isn't and will never be that guy who will take over a 4th quarter and win it with a last shot. He needs other people to take the stress off him. I just know people compare him to Jordan and even Kobe and IMO he is not and never will be on their level.
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Just let it go RWO.
We as Ravens fans are clearly scum of the earth, and should just be happy that these great people, who cheer for nothing than the finest, morally impeccable players, playing on the finest, most morally impeccable teams, will grace us with their presence, and words of wisdom.

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Old 07-12-2010, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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How is he taking a backseat when he's clearly the best player?
Because he bailed on his team and took the easy way out, he chose to forgo competition and building his own, individual legacy to help DWade win more rings. Because that's exactly what it is. Right now, James/Bosh to Wade is Gasol to Kobe.

Both DWade and Kobe remained on their teams, and at one point or another threatened to leave if the team didn't improve. Kobe did it much more openly though. Both guys lobbied for help, and they got it. They got the talented players they needed to compete again.

All three of Gasol, Bosh, and James played with very crappy teammates. All three guys, to a certain degree, were unhappy with their situation, and all three guys were more than happy to join another superstar and be the #2 guy. The problem is: while everyone expected it from Gasol and Bosh, nobody, not even LeBron himself, expected it out him.

Everyone thought that LeBron had that winning mentality and that he wanted to lead his team to victory. That he wanted to wait for the help, and that he'd be the #1 for his team. But he's not, and he'll never be. He claims he is, he says he is, he promises he is, and he acts as if he is, but he's not. He had this all planned along.

Many of the things he did in the past make much more sense now. Example #1: saying he would switch to #6. At the time, it seemed like an honest, respectful gesture towards Michael Jordan. Nobody is truly worthy of wearing #23 again. But now, he can't wear it because the Heat retired it for Jordan. So, he stated it a long, long time ago so nobody would associate it with this change, but IMO that's what it was all along. He knew he'd be coming down to Miami, so why not fool everyone into thinking there was actually a chance he'd stay in Cleveland or go to NY, NJ, or LA? He had this planned all along. Another example, quitting on the playoffs. He couldn't win a championship with Cleveland, because then how could he leave? He got what he wanted, but it might be the only time he'd get it, so no. He quit. He had to in order to leave.

And this is why all the LeBron and Kobe debates are now over. They're different guys. The debate should now be Kobe vs. Durant. Those two guys have willing mentalities. Not LeBron. LeBron is the opposite. This was the very reason Kobe wanted Shaq out, to be the #1 guy and have his team. To lead them to victory, and to be THE guy. Kobe waited and fought and struggled to get all of that. LeBron simply gave it up. He was the #1, he was going to lead them to victory, he was THE guy, and the threw it all away because he's not a winner, no matter how much he says he is. He's an attention ***** who, on the side, wants the championships.

That's why he's taking a backseat. Instead of doing the majority of the work himself, he decided to take time off and go to somebody else's team and help while leeching from their success.

That's where, IMO, the new trio could falter. LeBron will try to take Miami as his team (though just for the attention though, not to lead them to championships or whatever), and Wade will definitely not allow it. And Bosh will not stand to hear that it's either Wade's team or LeBron's team and that he's third fiddle. I seriously want to see them "sharing the spotlight." I want to see DWade's face when the fans embrace LeBron throwing up the chalk. When he dunks and everyone loves him. When he hits a gamewinner and everyone adores him and not Wade. Sharing the spotlight is impossible. It just can't happen. Never has, never will.
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