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Old 07-16-2010, 03:15 PM    (permalink
jballa838
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the heat are going to be awful defensively. there is a reason these offensive juggernauts don't win championships, yet Kobe has 5 rings. Big Z can't guard anyone, neither can Bosh, Wade is overrated as hell, Mike Miller can't guard anyone, so they have LeBron playing solid D and wade in the passing lanes getting cheap steals. sounds like a championship team, especially with Udonis Haslem and Penny freaking Hardaway being the bench guys trying to guard someone. there is a reason the Spurs beat the chosen one in 4 and Cleveland always imploded. Defense.
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Huh? Cleveland has been a really good defensive team basically the entire time Lebron has been there. San Antonio just beat them because Lebron was all but literally doing it himself.

Also Lebron, Wade, and Haslem are all good defenders and Bosh for all the crap he gets is a little below average at worst.

It's not like the Lakers are some kind of defensive juggernaut. Fisher can't guard anyone quick and Blake isn't a huge improvement there. Gasol has improved defensively but still isn't that great. Odom has no interest in playing defense.
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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Huh? Cleveland has been a really good defensive team basically the entire time Lebron has been there. San Antonio just beat them because Lebron was all but literally doing it himself.

Also Lebron, Wade, and Haslem are all good defenders and Bosh for all the crap he gets is a little below average at worst.

It's not like the Lakers are some kind of defensive juggernaut. Fisher can't guard anyone quick and Blake isn't a huge improvement there. Gasol has improved defensively but still isn't that great. Odom has no interest in playing defense.
What's average defense?
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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There is no way Bosh is only a little bit below average defensively. He is pretty ******* awful and pairing him with Big Z will not make things better.
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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What's average defense?
Neither good nor bad? I don't understand the question.
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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yea, but who's gonna stop Travis Outlaw. yea, that's right, tremble
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:34 PM    (permalink
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Why was Ronnie Brewer even available? Memphis really didn't want to pay him 3 mill for one year? He is well worth that option, even if Rudy *** plays his position.
Because after they traded for him they basically plodded him on the bench for the whole year. After giving Rudy the max contract, and drafting Xavier Henry, and having Mayo and Sam Young, it would be pointless to keep him even at 3 mil a year.
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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I don't know where this notion that Bosh is an awful defender comes from. He got a lot of minutes in the Olympics because of his defense; albeit with FIBA rules against foreign players. The only reason they went after Ilgauskas/Anthony was to keep Bosh at the 4. He has plenty of athleticism and length to defend other Forwards, but would/does struggle against true centers like Howard, Bynum and Yao.
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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I don't know where this notion that Bosh is an awful defender comes from. He got more minutes than Dwight Howard in the Olympics because of his defense; albeit with FIBA rules against foreign players. The only reason they went after Ilgauskas/Anthony was to keep Bosh at the 4. He has plenty of athleticism and length to defend other Forwards, but would/does struggle against true centers like Howard, Bynum and Yao.
he's gonna get eaten alive with anyone with any resemblance to a decent post up game.
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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I don't know where this notion that Bosh is an awful defender comes from. He got more minutes than Dwight Howard in the Olympics because of his defense; albeit with FIBA rules against foreign players. The only reason they went after Ilgauskas/Anthony was to keep Bosh at the 4. He has plenty of athleticism and length to defend other Forwards, but would/does struggle against true centers like Howard, Bynum and Yao.
And the only way they're going to be facing those guys in a serious manner is probably going to be the Eastern Conference finals and the Finals....deal with it when they get there. Even with Z as the starting C, they should easily crush their way to the 1 seed in the east imo.
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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Bosh does get dominated by stronger players. He also is very lazy. He creeps up to guys too close and puts his hands on them. Shorter and slower guys blow by him all the time with spins and jab steps. Bosh really can only guard guys like Garnett and Aldridge who never take it in and settle for fade aways and mid range jump shots. Also Howard getting less minutes in the Olympics was because of foul trouble. Bosh does get rebounds but it's always on 2nd attempts. He never fights inside and gets rebounds.
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:41 PM    (permalink
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He creeps up to guys too close and puts his hands on them.
Out of context win.
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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he's gonna get eaten alive with anyone with any resemblance to a decent post up game.

Let's face it, the Power Forwards that were available this FA were all about the same: Amare Stoudamire, Carlos Boozer and Chris Bosh all can score, rebound and aren't exactly KG on defense. Chris Bosh may not be on the NBA all-defense team, but I wouldn't say he is a liability.
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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Out of context win.
Hahahaha.

But yeah, Bosh is nothing special defensively. Not saying that anyone here does it, but sometimes people are misled by facts.

I once heard someone arguing that Stoudemire was a premiere defensive player because he got a little over one block. And one block per game really isn't that spectacular.
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:51 PM    (permalink
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It's not like the Lakers are some kind of defensive juggernaut. Fisher can't guard anyone quick and Blake isn't a huge improvement there. Gasol has improved defensively but still isn't that great. Odom has no interest in playing defense.
Lakers are kind of a defensive juggernaut actually. Size factor alone allows them to control the paint (and compensates for Fisher very well), and as far as perimeter defense you have Artest and Kobe. I don't know the rankings but I imagine they're pretty up there in stats like point differential and FG%, and watching the playoffs it was pretty evident they know how to lock it down when they need to.
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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Found this on a Cavaliers' fan's sig on other boards.

"When you kill a king, you don't stab him in the dark. You kill him where the entire court can watch him die."
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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the heat are going to be awful defensively. there is a reason these offensive juggernauts don't win championships, yet Kobe has 5 rings. Big Z can't guard anyone, neither can Bosh, Wade is overrated as hell, Mike Miller can't guard anyone, so they have LeBron playing solid D and wade in the passing lanes getting cheap steals. sounds like a championship team, especially with Udonis Haslem and Penny freaking Hardaway being the bench guys trying to guard someone. there is a reason the Spurs beat the chosen one in 4 and Cleveland always imploded. Defense.
The Heat were one of the better defensive teams in basketball last year. They finished 2nd in points allowed, 2nd in FG% allowed, 5th in 3PT% allowed, and 4th in defensive efficiency. Chalmers, Wade, Haslem, and Anthony all return from that team. LeBron is an upgrade defensively and Bosh isn't a significant downgrade defensively from Beasley, if any. They lose some defense at center and some from the bench, but they didn't lose enough to go from one of the better defensive teams in basketball to awful. Their scoring and overall offense improved WAY more than their defense declined.
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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Lakers are kind of a defensive juggernaut actually. Size factor alone allows them to control the paint (and compensates for Fisher very well), and as far as perimeter defense you have Artest and Kobe. I don't know the rankings but I imagine they're pretty up there in stats like point differential and FG%, and watching the playoffs it was pretty evident they know how to lock it down when they need to.
They were 5th in FG%, 9th in PPG allowed. Both below where the Heat ranked, and the Heat are bringing back their best defenders from last year and adding a great perimeter defender in Lebron.

And the interior defense wasn't enough to compensate for Fisher in the playoffs, well I guess it kind of was because they won but he's definitely a liability. Williams dominated in that series and Westbrook was the Thunder's best player in the first round.

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Old 07-16-2010, 04:02 PM    (permalink
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the heat are going to be awful defensively. there is a reason these offensive juggernauts don't win championships, yet Kobe has 5 rings. Big Z can't guard anyone, neither can Bosh, Wade is overrated as hell, Mike Miller can't guard anyone, so they have LeBron playing solid D and wade in the passing lanes getting cheap steals. sounds like a championship team, especially with Udonis Haslem and Penny freaking Hardaway being the bench guys trying to guard someone. there is a reason the Spurs beat the chosen one in 4 and Cleveland always imploded. Defense.
Who cares? They'll slow the game down and play half court offense. No way they don't score at least 2 points 99.9% of the time. Who can match up to that?
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Old 07-16-2010, 04:15 PM    (permalink
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They were 5th in FG%, 9th in PPG allowed. Both below where the Heat ranked, and the Heat are bringing back their best defenders from last year and adding a great perimeter defender in Lebron.

And the interior defense wasn't enough to compensate for Fisher in the playoffs, well I guess it kind of was because they won but he's definitely a liability. Williams dominated in that series and Westbrook was the Thunder's best player in the first round.
Fisher was not a real liability in the playoffs...Westbrook went off a few times but not enough to swing the series.

Williams didn't dominate: is 4 games even enough of a sample size? Any scenario where you lose every game in a series DQs your best player from 'dominating'. Fisher has a pretty good track record staying in front of Williams anyway.

No mention of Nash? Two time MVP and Fisher took a big chunk of his game away.

In the finals Fisher was guarding Ray Allen, who besides game 2 might as well have not been on the floor. Fish is definitely slow and it's emphasized in the regular season when it's night in night out but it hasn't really hurt the team.

Didn't really intend to discuss the Heat v. the Lakers but it's a joke to use last years stats when the whole chemistry of the team has been upended. They have new starters at the 4 and 5, and they are guys whose defensive reputation could probably be described as questionable. I don't think that's a fatal flaw, I'm not unreasonable, but it's going to be noticeable.
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Old 07-16-2010, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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Fisher was not a real liability in the playoffs...Westbrook went off a few times but not enough to swing the series.

Williams didn't dominate: is 4 games even enough of a sample size? Any scenario where you lose every game in a series DQs your best player from 'dominating'. Fisher has a pretty good track record staying in front of Williams anyway.

No mention of Nash? Two time MVP and Fisher took a big chunk of his game away.

In the finals Fisher was guarding Ray Allen, who besides game 2 might as well have not been on the floor. Fish is definitely slow and it's emphasized in the regular season when it's night in night out but it hasn't really hurt the team.

Didn't really intend to discuss the Heat v. the Lakers but it's a joke to use last years stats when the whole chemistry of the team has been upended. They have new starters at the 4 and 5, and they are guys whose defensive reputation could probably be described as questionable. I don't think that's a fatal flaw, I'm not unreasonable, but it's going to be noticeable.
Williams did everythiing in his power to even keep those games close, the Lakers just had a clearly superior overall team.

I forgot you guys even played the Suns, but Nash averaged 18/12 in that series.

I agree that stats obviously aren't the end all be all in this situation but when you bring back your best defenders in Haslem, Wade, Chalmers, and Anthony and add in Lebron James I don't think it's likely they'll fall off much. Even if Bosh isn't great neither was Beasley. But I guess this was never the argument so I'm not sure where I'm going with this.
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Old 07-16-2010, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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Williams did everythiing in his power to even keep those games close, the Lakers just had a clearly superior overall team.

I forgot you guys even played the Suns, but Nash averaged 18/12 in that series.

I agree that stats obviously aren't the end all be all in this situation but when you bring back your best defenders in Haslem, Wade, Chalmers, and Anthony and add in Lebron James I don't think it's likely they'll fall off much. Even if Bosh isn't great neither was Beasley. But I guess this was never the argument so I'm not sure where I'm going with this.
Let's drink a beer instead
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Old 07-16-2010, 04:38 PM    (permalink
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My fridge is stocked help yourself. Hope you like Michelob Golden.
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Old 07-16-2010, 04:53 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, the Heat were a great team defensively with Quentin Richardson at SF and Michael Beasely at PF. LeBron James and Chris Bosh are upgrades there, with the first being a no-brainer and the second not quite as much but I would still say yes. If they could get Matt Barnes that would help their bench D even more, with Haslem and Anthony being two other defensive subs.

Where they will fall of is at Center, with Jermaine O'Neal going to Boston. I do think Joel Anthony is really good defender, he was actually third in blocks per minute last year, and if he splits with Z they won't be too bad there either.
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Old 07-16-2010, 04:53 PM    (permalink
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I'd say both Nash and Dragic abused Fisher, if Kobe didn't air ball that shot Suns win in OT and go home leading 3-1
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