Draft Countdown Forums

Go Back   Draft Countdown Forums > The Locker Room > Off Topic

Off Topic Almost Anything Goes

View Poll Results: Is Channing Frye the most influential NBA PLAYER EVER?
Yes 623421 100.00%
No 0 0%
Voters: 623421. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-19-2010, 02:26 PM    (permalink
dabears10
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,663
Reputation: 909102
dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenikz View Post
Evans is already better than Rose
By what measure?
__________________

Thanks to BoneKrusher Credit and Rep to him for the sig.

dabears10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 02:29 PM    (permalink
D-Unit
DC Administrator
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 61,199
Reputation: 2484712
D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

I'd take Rose over Evans every day, all day.
D-Unit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 02:42 PM    (permalink
MetSox17
Suck it Metsox
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: God blessed Texas
Posts: 21,667
Reputation: 4438003
MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Evans needs to learn how to shoot to keep defenses honest; he also will be a high usage player that needs the ball in his hands in order to succeed.
As do most of the great players in the NBA. Besides, how the hell is that a problem for the team? You want your best player to have the ball in his hands most of the time anyway, it's his job to create offense and opportunities for his teammates. Is he gonna do that running around like a mad-man off screens? I don't see how all of a sudden this became a detriment to a team, all this "he needs the ball in his hands" BS. It's crap.

Quote:
There are a lot of guys who do that and do it better than he does. That's my point. Will he ever be better than Wade, Rose, etc?
What in the bloody hell does it matter that other people (Like Dwayne Wade or Lebron James, two of the best players in the NBA) can get to the basket better than a 19 yr old rookie can? How is this relevant in any way? He gets to the basket and finishes better than Derrick Rose, so i don't even know why you brought him up.

Quote:
He can improve his shot over time, but will he ever be an elite 3P shooter who hits 90% of his free throws?
Again, relevance? Shooting 45% from the 3P line is NOT Evans' game, why in the world would it matter if he ever shot at an elite level? Good shooters are a dime a freakin dozen, just look at guys like Korver, Morrow, Kapono, Stojakovic, JR Smith etc.

Quote:
Over the 2nd half of the season Curry was the better player and I think his offensive potential is off the charts because he can distribute, he can shoot, and play on and off the ball. He is more dynamic.
Why don't you mention how Curry was mainly dominating ball usage during this time period as well, and mention how terrible of a thing it is? He had a good last month, but five of the eight games that month were against some of the NBA's worst (Knicks, Wolves, Wizards, Clippers, Raps). Let's see him do that for a full season before you start claiming he's the next Reggie Miller.

That whole post was just incredibly silly, the logic that you're using to criticize Evans' accomplishments is very flawed.
__________________
MetSox17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 03:08 PM    (permalink
Rosebud
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Enjoying a succulent peach
Posts: 10,596
Reputation: 2578670
Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yo123 View Post
This. I love how Knicks fans were already putting together their 2011 lineups including Lebron/Wade/Bosh in some combination 2 years ago and when the FA season actually came around they got all but shutout.
The knicks had a great offseason. We didn't get LeBosh, but we got a top 10 or near top ten player in this league who gives our team a respectability it hasn't had since Ewing got traded. Then we used the rest of our cap space to rip the Warriors of in the Lee S&T and got the best PG on the market on just a two year deal. That's a series of good moves that have made the knicks roster full of young, long two way players with a lot of upside and flexibility. We had a really strong offseason given where we were last year. It could've been bigger, but given that LeBosh decided to go to Miami we did the best we could, which was still very good. We'll be a playoff team this year with a max cap slot to go after Melo or a center like Marc Gasol, Nene or Horford.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yo123 View Post
I feel like this entire forum has a less than stellar grasp on the value of a player like Anthony. Just because he's a FA after this year doesn't mean they're going to hand over one of the top 5 scorers in the NBA.
Agreed, I think a lot of people are taking the notion that the Nuggets should take what they can get for Melo long term even though I think that one more year of Melo and making a run is worth more to them than any package Orlando, New York or Houston would put together for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dabears10 View Post
Can some one explain why Gallinari+Curry+ a first rounder from like 2014 is better than Luol Deng+Taj Gibson+ and 2 1st rounders in 2011?
The key difference is that Gallo's younger than Deng with a lot more upside and he doesn't carry Deng's contract. Deng's a good forward, but Gallo has the potential to be better, he's a similar caliber defender, Gallo being better on the perimeter and Deng better in the post, Gallo's not as great of a rebounder as Deng but when he's not behind the arc he's a very good rebounder in his own right and his offensive package is more versatile since he's a better shooter with a better handle and touch. It all depends on what they want in return but Gallo helps you more than Deng if you're going for a complete rebuild around Lawson, Nene and whatever you can get for Melo.
__________________

BK

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
Rosebud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 03:21 PM    (permalink
D-Unit
DC Administrator
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 61,199
Reputation: 2484712
D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.D-Unit is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MetSox17 View Post
As do most of the great players in the NBA. Besides, how the hell is that a problem for the team? You want your best player to have the ball in his hands most of the time anyway, it's his job to create offense and opportunities for his teammates. Is he gonna do that running around like a mad-man off screens? I don't see how all of a sudden this became a detriment to a team, all this "he needs the ball in his hands" BS. It's crap.



What in the bloody hell does it matter that other people (Like Dwayne Wade or Lebron James, two of the best players in the NBA) can get to the basket better than a 19 yr old rookie can? How is this relevant in any way? He gets to the basket and finishes better than Derrick Rose, so i don't even know why you brought him up.



Again, relevance? Shooting 45% from the 3P line is NOT Evans' game, why in the world would it matter if he ever shot at an elite level? Good shooters are a dime a freakin dozen, just look at guys like Korver, Morrow, Kapono, Stojakovic, JR Smith etc.



Why don't you mention how Curry was mainly dominating ball usage during this time period as well, and mention how terrible of a thing it is? He had a good last month, but five of the eight games that month were against some of the NBA's worst (Knicks, Wolves, Wizards, Clippers, Raps). Let's see him do that for a full season before you start claiming he's the next Reggie Miller.

That whole post was just incredibly silly, the logic that you're using to criticize Evans' accomplishments is very flawed.
Someone is having a homer panic attack. Evans can't shoot to save his life. Face the facts. His abilities will remain limited until he develops a better shot. ...and as far as athleticism goes, Evans can't touch Rose with a 10 foot pole. Evans finishes at the rim better than Rose??? Hahahahhaahhaaha. Wake up.
D-Unit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 03:25 PM    (permalink
Shiver
Icon
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The Lynn Swan of SWDC Hall of Fame
Posts: 18,252
Reputation: 210983
Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenikz View Post
Evans is already better than Rose
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Unit View Post
I'd take Rose over Evans every day, all day.
That argument aside, it does bring up a red flag about Evans' future. Derrick Rose didn't shoot better, he didn't defend better and he didn't include his teammates any better in his sophomore season than he did as a rookie. Supposedly Rose has vastly improved those things this summer, which he needs to improve in order to take the next step, but we shall see. I could easily see the same thing happen with Tyreke Evans: a stagnant sophomore season. Which is still quite good, I must add I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJordanEberle (sabf) View Post
This. It's far more common for a guy to learn how to shoot than it is to learn how to become a proper PG or learn how to get to the rim consistently. You can get a coach to teach you how to shoot, but it takes a lot more effort to properly break down a defender, and the body control to finish through contact is seemingly instinctual and not teachable.
Coaches can maximize your talents, but shooting is something that a lot of the times can be described as "instinctual." You either are or you aren't a great shooter. Some guys can hit 90% of their free throws, some guys can't. Even high school kids like Kobe Bryant, LeBron James and the like basically shot the same % in their rookie years at age 19 as they do now. Even Michael Jordan, the hardest worker and most competitive player ever, never really improved his shooting as his career went along. Fortunately he already had "it."

For a point: I was never "criticizing" Evans accomplishments. He had a great rookie season and averaged 20-5-5. What I was saying was Curry was stronger in the second half (not just the last month) and I think he has much more upside going forward because he can dominate offensively in multiple ways. That's it.
__________________


Last edited by Shiver : 08-19-2010 at 03:28 PM.
Shiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 03:26 PM    (permalink
MetSox17
Suck it Metsox
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: God blessed Texas
Posts: 21,667
Reputation: 4438003
MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Tyreke Evans shot 46% from the field last year. In comparison, Kevin Durant shot 47%, Kobe 46, Wade 47, Melo 44.

So you're either talking out of your ass saying he can't shoot to save his life, or he finishes at the rim with the best of em. ;)
__________________

Last edited by MetSox17 : 08-19-2010 at 03:33 PM.
MetSox17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 03:26 PM    (permalink
dabears10
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,663
Reputation: 909102
dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
The key difference is that Gallo's younger than Deng with a lot more upside and he doesn't carry Deng's contract. Deng's a good forward, but Gallo has the potential to be better, he's a similar caliber defender, Gallo being better on the perimeter and Deng better in the post, Gallo's not as great of a rebounder as Deng but when he's not behind the arc he's a very good rebounder in his own right and his offensive package is more versatile since he's a better shooter with a better handle and touch. It all depends on what they want in return but Gallo helps you more than Deng if you're going for a complete rebuild around Lawson, Nene and whatever you can get for Melo.
I already talked about how I disagree with the amount of upside that Gallinari has so I will not really talk about that.

Gallinari's Contract is up after 2011-12, so that is where the trade, of the offer of the bulls and knicks respectively, will have a strong difference. If they are rebuilding they will likely want to extend that contract and what will that look like? I imagine they will want to keep it under double digit millions, but the reason Deng was given his contract was from his 'upside'. Then it really depends on the new CBA and whether or not there will be a strike which is a messy area. If Gallo has the type of upside where a majority of knicks fans believe he has, he will likely demand a contract in the area of 11-13 mil a year.

TL;DR Gallo's contract/extension would be a main detriment/bonus of the knicks deal.
__________________

Thanks to BoneKrusher Credit and Rep to him for the sig.

dabears10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 03:33 PM    (permalink
iowatreat54
Icon
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Americanzi
Posts: 15,122
Reputation: 1346319
iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
That argument aside, it does bring up a red flag about Evans' future. Derrick Rose didn't shoot better, he didn't defend better and he didn't include his teammates any better in his sophomore season than he did as a rookie. Supposedly Rose has vastly improved those things this summer, which he needs to improve in order to take the next step, but we shall see. I could easily see the same thing happen with Tyreke Evans: a stagnant sophomore season. Which is still quite good, I must add I guess.



Coaches can maximize your talents, but shooting is something that a lot of the times can be described as "instinctual." You either are or you aren't a great shooter. Some guys can hit 90% of their free throws, some guys can't. Even high school kids like Kobe Bryant, LeBron James and the like basically shot the same % in their rookie years at age 19 as they do now. Even Michael Jordan, the hardest worker and most competitive player ever, never really improved his shooting as his career went along. Fortunately he already had "it."

For a point: I was never "criticizing" Evans accomplishments. He had a great rookie season and averaged 20-5-5. What I was saying was Curry was stronger in the second half (not just the last month) and I think he has much more upside going forward because he can dominate offensively in multiple ways. That's it.
I like looking at stat lines to base all my arguments as well.

If you don't think Rose improved in those areas then you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Is he elite in those areas? No. But to say he didn't improve is a completely uninformed statement, especially with regards to his shooting. I have no idea where you could get that Rose wasn't better at shooting last year than his rookie year.
__________________


"You don't need thumbs. My best friend is my brother's dog, he doesn't have any thumbs, he's doin fine."
-Pat Angerer on breaking his thumb.

DJK = Mr. Fun-Haver
Kirk Ferentz = Coach Killjoy

Last edited by iowatreat54 : 08-19-2010 at 03:38 PM.
iowatreat54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 03:38 PM    (permalink
Shiver
Icon
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The Lynn Swan of SWDC Hall of Fame
Posts: 18,252
Reputation: 210983
Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

He didn't play exponentially better, there. Let's not play semantics here.
__________________

Shiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 03:40 PM    (permalink
dabears10
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,663
Reputation: 909102
dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
Coaches can maximize your talents, but shooting is something that a lot of the times can be described as "instinctual." You either are or you aren't a great shooter. Some guys can hit 90% of their free throws, some guys can't. Even high school kids like Kobe Bryant, LeBron James and the like basically shot the same % in their rookie years at age 19 as they do now. Even Michael Jordan, the hardest worker and most competitive player ever, never really improved his shooting as his career went along. Fortunately he already had "it."
Jordan's first two years he had a 17% and 18% from 3. His first year back from retirement he shot 42% from 3 and the next year he shot 37%. So he did improve his shot. His FT% always hovered around 80%.
__________________

Thanks to BoneKrusher Credit and Rep to him for the sig.

dabears10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 03:43 PM    (permalink
iowatreat54
Icon
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Americanzi
Posts: 15,122
Reputation: 1346319
iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
He didn't play exponentially better, there. Let's not play semantics here.
He improved greatly, especially in his shooting. I don't understand what you're getting at? You make it seem like Rose's game hasn't improved at all from year 1 to year 2, which couldn't be further from the truth. I'm confused.
__________________


"You don't need thumbs. My best friend is my brother's dog, he doesn't have any thumbs, he's doin fine."
-Pat Angerer on breaking his thumb.

DJK = Mr. Fun-Haver
Kirk Ferentz = Coach Killjoy
iowatreat54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 03:51 PM    (permalink
Shiver
Icon
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The Lynn Swan of SWDC Hall of Fame
Posts: 18,252
Reputation: 210983
Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dabears10 View Post
Jordan's first two years he had a 17% and 18% from 3. His first year back from retirement he shot 42% from 3 and the next year he shot 37%. So he did improve his shot. His FT% always hovered around 80%.
Look at the 3P attempts. He almost never shot 3s early in his career. He never was a 3PT shooter and he rarely tried to be except for 89-90, 92-93, 95-96 and 96-97 where him attempts were north of 200. He was never great at it, by any means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iowatreat54 View Post
He improved greatly, especially in his shooting. I don't understand what you're getting at? You make it seem like Rose's game hasn't improved at all from year 1 to year 2, which couldn't be further from the truth. I'm confused.
That is where the source of our disagreement lies. I would argue that what you would argue is 'great' improvement is an over-exaggeration. At best he laid the groundwork for the true great improvement in his overall game to come this upcoming season.
__________________


Last edited by Shiver : 08-19-2010 at 03:54 PM.
Shiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 03:57 PM    (permalink
Paul
All-NFLDC
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Dallas
Posts: 11,834
Reputation: 1429711
Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Your arguments always seem to be purely stats based and hardly ever about the players performance on the court. This isn't baseball. There are other vairable involved in the game aside what you see at basketball-reference.com. Maybe thats why your points are constantly being contradicted by someone else here.
Paul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 03:59 PM    (permalink
dabears10
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,663
Reputation: 909102
dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.dabears10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
That is where the source of our disagreement lies. I would argue that what you would argue is 'great' improvement is an over-exaggeration. At best he laid the groundwork for the true great improvement in his overall game to come this upcoming season.
According to HoopData, Derrick Rose increased his percentage from 10-15 feet from 38% to 50%. From inside 10 ft he went from 47% to 57%. This would be indicitive of increased shooting touch.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
Look at the 3P attempts. He almost never shot 3s and he was very inconsistent his entire career at it. He never was a 3PT shooter and except for 1995-1997 he never tried to be. He was never great at it, by any means.
Or he wasn't a good 3P shooter and then worked at it and became a better shooter and therefore took more shots. The fact is that he was a long range shooter basically until people said he couldn't do it. Then he showed he could hit the 3 and as an exclamation point hit the most in a quarter in a finals game.
__________________

Thanks to BoneKrusher Credit and Rep to him for the sig.

dabears10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 03:59 PM    (permalink
iowatreat54
Icon
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Americanzi
Posts: 15,122
Reputation: 1346319
iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
Look at the 3P attempts. He almost never shot 3s early in his career. He never was a 3PT shooter and he rarely tried to be except for 89-90, 92-93, 95-96 and 96-97 where him attempts were north of 200. He was never great at it, by any means.



That is where the source of our disagreement lies. I would argue that what you would argue is 'great' improvement is an over-exaggeration. At best he laid the groundwork for the true great improvement in his overall game to come this upcoming season.
His shooting improved greatly, his game management improved greatly, his decision making improved greatly, his defense improve (not greatly). The only thing that didn't improve was his stats, which mostly went up slightly.

Basically, if you watched Rose from 2 years ago to this year, you can tell how much he has improved. By what are you basing your assertion that his shooting, defense, and distribution haven't improved or haven't improved that much? His steals and assists stats went slightly down, but that doesn't mean he didn't improve in those areas. I'm curious as to what makes you think he didn't get any better in those areas.
__________________


"You don't need thumbs. My best friend is my brother's dog, he doesn't have any thumbs, he's doin fine."
-Pat Angerer on breaking his thumb.

DJK = Mr. Fun-Haver
Kirk Ferentz = Coach Killjoy
iowatreat54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 04:01 PM    (permalink
Shiver
Icon
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The Lynn Swan of SWDC Hall of Fame
Posts: 18,252
Reputation: 210983
Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul View Post
Your arguments always seem to be purely stats based and hardly ever about the players performance on the court. This isn't baseball. There are other vairable involved in the game aside what you see at basketball-reference.com. Maybe thats why your points are constantly being contradicted by someone else here.
Thanks for the heads up. I will use a much more subjective approach to discussing the NBA with that in mind. *njx9 eyeroll here*
__________________

Shiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 04:10 PM    (permalink
Shiver
Icon
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The Lynn Swan of SWDC Hall of Fame
Posts: 18,252
Reputation: 210983
Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iowatreat54 View Post
His shooting improved greatly, his game management improved greatly, his decision making improved greatly, his defense improve (not greatly). The only thing that didn't improve was his stats, which mostly went up slightly.

Basically, if you watched Rose from 2 years ago to this year, you can tell how much he has improved. By what are you basing your assertion that his shooting, defense, and distribution haven't improved or haven't improved that much? His steals and assists stats went slightly down, but that doesn't mean he didn't improve in those areas. I'm curious as to what makes you think he didn't get any better in those areas.
I just don't think he "greatly" improved, or the word I used "exponentially." Those improvements that you discussed are things that are to be expected from a rookie-turned-sophomore. The original point that I was refuting was that a player could magically be "taught" or "learn" to be a great shooter/passer. Rose didn't become Steve Nash in year 2 and I don't think Tyreke Evans will either. That doesn't diminish the kind of players they are.
__________________

Shiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 04:14 PM    (permalink
MetSox17
Suck it Metsox
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: God blessed Texas
Posts: 21,667
Reputation: 4438003
MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
Thanks for the heads up. I will use a much more subjective approach to discussing the NBA with that in mind. *njx9 eyeroll here*
It may be subjective, but at least it won't seem like you're a metrics nerd that knows absolutely nothing about the actual game of basketball aside from googling numbers. Cause that's what it seems like. I don't think you watch very much basketball.
__________________
MetSox17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 04:15 PM    (permalink
Paul
All-NFLDC
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Dallas
Posts: 11,834
Reputation: 1429711
Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Paul is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
Thanks for the heads up. I will use a much more subjective approach to discussing the NBA with that in mind. *njx9 eyeroll here*
Thank god, maybe it will save me from having to read any more of your horribly inaccurate posts.

And that's cute how you did that njx eyeroll aside from just a normal eyeroll, it lets everyone know how cool you are.
Paul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 04:29 PM    (permalink
iowatreat54
Icon
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Americanzi
Posts: 15,122
Reputation: 1346319
iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
I just don't think he "greatly" improved, or the word I used "exponentially." Those improvements that you discussed are things that are to be expected from a rookie-turned-sophomore. The original point that I was refuting was that a player could magically be "taught" or "learn" to be a great shooter/passer. Rose didn't become Steve Nash in year 2 and I don't think Tyreke Evans will either. That doesn't diminish the kind of players they are.
Greatly improve and improve to being great are two completely different things. The former being subjective to Rose's abilities prior to improvement, the latter being that it is compared to other players' levels of skill.

Did Derrick Rose improve to Steve Nash-like PG skills? No. But compared to his rookie year abilities and play, his improvement was great.

This discussion brings about a new question, then. Is it more important/insightful for you to base improvement on how he is compared to top talent, or to how much he has improved compared to his prior levels? Because anyone who has watched Derrick Rose knows that compared to his rookie year, he has improved by a lot, but compared to guys like Nash, Paul, Williams, he still has a ways to go in terms of skill and production on a consistent basis.

It seems like our arguments are shaped around different ideas. I simply measure improvement as how the player has done compared to his previous levels, whereas I believe you, more or less, measure improvement compared to how other players improve and at what level other somewhat comparable players are at.
__________________


"You don't need thumbs. My best friend is my brother's dog, he doesn't have any thumbs, he's doin fine."
-Pat Angerer on breaking his thumb.

DJK = Mr. Fun-Haver
Kirk Ferentz = Coach Killjoy
iowatreat54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 04:31 PM    (permalink
Shiver
Icon
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The Lynn Swan of SWDC Hall of Fame
Posts: 18,252
Reputation: 210983
Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul View Post
Thank god, maybe it will save me from having to read any more of your horribly inaccurate posts.

And that's cute how you did that njx eyeroll aside from just a normal eyeroll, it lets everyone know how cool you are.
So what would you suggest? A competition of who can find the most youtube videos?

"Horribly inaccurate," in what sense? You couldn't even refute any point I made:

1. Stephen Curry finished the season stronger, which was a big topic of discussion last year for Rookie of the Year:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...le-of-the-tape
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...en-curry_N.htm -
Quote:
The move (to PG) has benefited Curry, on par with fellow rookie point guards Tyreke Evans of the Sacramento Kings and Brandon Jennings of the Milwaukee Bucks.
Even Sacremento's own newspaper had a huge article about the debate about Curry vs. Evans.

Quote:
In the blink of an eye Friday night at Arco Arena, the apparent chase for the title of 2009-10 NBA Rookie of the Year nearly became a two-man race.
Kings guard Tyreke Evans, the leading scorer among rookies this season, was inadvertently struck in the face by an elbow and suffered lacerations to his gums, a concussion, and a feared fractured jaw.
But to their fans' relief, the Kings announced Saturday that there was no fracture, and the concussion was only slight.
In other words, the race is still on.
But if you're looking to irk someone around Arco Arena, try calling the race for Rookie of the Year a race.
No disrespect toward Golden State guard Stephen Curry. Same goes for Milwaukee guard Brandon Jennings, New Orleans' Darren Collison or any other rookie who has stood out this season.
Those within the Kings' organization don't want to hear that their prize rookie has to hold off Curry – or any other rookie – for the award.
When you have a player like Evans, whose scoring, rebounding and assist averages in his first season are on par with the likes of Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson and LeBron James, it's silly on the surface to imply Evans has serious competition for the award.
But what good is a sports award without some debate?
So as the season nears its conclusion, Evans appears to be on his way to winning the Kings' first postseason award since Bobby Jackson was named NBA Sixth Man of the Year after the 2002-03 season.
It's not as if the future of the franchise hinges on Evans winning the award. Kings coaches and front-office staff wouldn't like Evans any less if he were second in the voting.
But they do expect him to win it.
"They have to give it to somebody, and I think this year it's clear it's going to be Tyreke," said Kings coach Paul Westphal. "If people want to act like it's a race or not, I don't think it is. At the same time, there's great reason for pride and enthusiasm for all those players."
With the Kings playing just once on national TV this season, Evans has gotten little exposure around the league.
But when the national spotlight has been on, he has shined. During All-Star Weekend in Dallas, Evans and teammate Omri Casspi participated in the Rookie Challenge. Evans scored 26 points and was the game' s MVP.
"He's going to be one of those players who's going to be good for a long, long time," Miami's Dwyane Wade said that weekend. "We're going to be talking about him for a long, long time."
For all the talk about Evans and the Rookie of the Year Award, Evans seems to be doing the least of it. There was the March 10 game at Arco when the Kings showed highlights of Evans and gave the first 10,000 fans a "Rally for RekeROY" T-shirt.
He was treated to a special introduction with 5,000 cutouts of his face held up by fans.
Evans seems genuinely embarrassed by the attention, offering a quick smile and downward glance when talking about all the fuss around him.
Then Evans admits – sort of – that he'd like to be Rookie of the Year.
"Not really," Evans said when asked if the award was on his mind at the start of the season. "But it's a goal for me to get Rookie of the Year. I've got goals for me and for the Kings' organization and to try to move forward to next year and try to become a better team."
Evans has done that on the floor at a pace that only two Hall of Famers (Jordan and Robertson) and the reigning MVP (James) have done.
Evans averages 20.3 points, 5.2 rebounds and 5.6 assists. Jordan, Robertson and James are the only other players in league history to average 20-5-5 as rookies.
Based on that, the balloting would appear to be more about who will finish second. But Curry's play at the start of the New Year boosted his national profile, and in January he ended Evans' two-month hold on the Western Conference's Rookie of the Month Award.
"Some guys peak early and then they're down the rest of the year," Curry said. "Some guys have a roller-coaster year. I try to constantly get better each time I go out."
Of all the candidates, Jennings is the only one who can boast he's a big part of his team making the playoffs.
In Friday night's head-to-head meeting, Jennings got the better of Evans, outscoring his counterpart 35-15 in a 114-108 double-overtime win.
In just his seventh NBA game, Jennings scored 55 points against the Warriors in November. While his scoring average has dropped, Jennings leads rookies in assists.
The competition among the 2009 draft class has been the talk among the rookies, too.
Who's playing the best? Who's going to win the award?
"We all definitely talk like that," said Toronto rookie guard DeMar DeRozan. "I love seeing what Tyreke's doing, what Stephen Curry is doing."
So who does DeRozan think is the Rookie of the Year? Like many of his peers, he's not publicly leaning toward anyone.
"I don't know," he said. "It's still interesting. Stephen Curry is coming along real well. He's doing a lot of stuff. We're going to have to wait and see."
The talk has also led to just about every established star being asked their opinion of the race.
Early last week, the Los Angeles Lakers faced Curry in Oakland and Evans at Arco Arena on back-to-back nights.
"Tyreke is a grown man," said Lakers guard Kobe Bryant. "Stephen Curry is a phenomenal player. They are completely different players so you can't compare the two. I might be a little biased too because I'm from Philadelphia and so is Tyreke. Philly guys just have the all-around game, that's just kind of how it is."
Curry was an impressive shooter at Davidson, and has been showing in the NBA that he has the ability to be a point guard.
Curry wouldn't mind winning the award, but also accepts it's not in his control.
"There's a lot of speculation about who's leading, who's not and who's in the running for it," Curry said. "But all that's got to be put in the back of your head and play. And at the end I just want to be in the conversation. You only get to go for it once so it does matter."
Evans said he doesn't seek out other rookies' statistics.
But he can't help it if friends flood his cell phone with updates on how Curry and others are playing.
"People call me and text me to tell me how Steph is doing," Evans said. "They say I should win it because I've been consistent and been doing it for the whole season or ask is Steph better than me.
"I don't pay it no mind. Steph is a good player. He's been playing good. They've got a good offense. They run and gun and he gets a lot of shots up."
Evans said on nights the Kings lose, his statistics don't mean nearly as much. But he accepts that chatter in the media and among his peers and friends won't cease.
"That's how it is," Evans said. "When you're in the league and you've got friends, they want to keep up with stuff like that. They pay attention to it more than I do."
Undoubtedly, many of Evans' friends who follow the rest of the rookies probably have the same question.
Is this even a race?
"Horribly inaccurate" I suppose. I guess I am alone with my crazy, out of touch, baseless claims... Evans is far and away better, no argument to be made. Because "I don't watch basketball" I think differently.

2. You didn't even bring up the schematic differences of both teams which is a valid point of contention.

3. I made a point that shooting is just as much of an intangible as driving/attacking the rim. I didn't bring up this point, but it is bunk and I showed why it is bunk statistically. How one could argue shooting without relying on statistics is a peculiar thing.
__________________


Last edited by Shiver : 08-19-2010 at 04:35 PM.
Shiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 04:35 PM    (permalink
MetSox17
Suck it Metsox
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: God blessed Texas
Posts: 21,667
Reputation: 4438003
MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

For all the Curry talk, why hasn't anyone mentioned that he and Evans shot nearly an identical FG%?
__________________
MetSox17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 04:37 PM    (permalink
Shiver
Icon
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The Lynn Swan of SWDC Hall of Fame
Posts: 18,252
Reputation: 210983
Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

But statistics are bad! Why use silly numbers!? You don't watch basketball MetSox17!
__________________

Shiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2010, 04:53 PM    (permalink
MetSox17
Suck it Metsox
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: God blessed Texas
Posts: 21,667
Reputation: 4438003
MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.MetSox17 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

I reamed you out already and you either didn't read the post or didn't wanna reply to it. My rebuttal has already been made.

Here, in case you missed it.
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/show...3&#post2264123
__________________
MetSox17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.