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Old 11-01-2010, 03:13 PM    (permalink
EvilNixon
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Originally Posted by iowatreat54 View Post
Also, I already know the answer to this given Nixon's love for small (aka completely realistic and legitimate) sample sizes, but you do realize that it's 2/3 games into 2010? How on earth can you bring up how Rose has done so far in 2010 compared to anything is beyond assinine. But since you want to play that game, fantasitc, Rose through 2 games in 2010 > Monta in 2009 (statistically speaking). Obviously, Rose is better.

See, I can make small sample sizes work too.

Also, congrats Monta on beating Danny Granger. It's not every day you see a guard beat a forward on offense......
What small sample sizes have I used? I said Rose is in the same situation Monta is in, except he actually has NBA level talent around him. He's being forced to be a volume scorer.


Except, he was defending Granger and owning him. Granger wanted no part of Monta Ellis on D. They threw Dahntay Jones,Rush, and everyone they could think of and he could not be stopped.
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Originally Posted by scottyboy View Post
like honestly lebron, instead of south beach, why don't you take your talents and just shove them up your ass.
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:17 PM    (permalink
EvilNixon
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Originally Posted by sweetness34 View Post
No, you said that Monta is a better defender than Deron. Monta is not a good defender. Deron Williams is worse than him according to you. By the transitive property, Deron is a terrible defender. That is what you said.

Comprehension of your posts. It's fundamental.
He is better. And he actually is guarded the best perimeter player on the opposing team, game in and game out, all the while being asked to carry the load on offense, and he did an amazing job last year.

You're a Derrick rose fan talking about Monta's D?

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=291120009
Monta vs Brandon Roy
Roy: (6-17 FG, 4 TO) Monta with 6 steals
http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=291130009
Monta vs Danny Granger(yes he guarded Granger)
Granger (7-17 5 TO) 5 steals for Monta
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=300118009
Monta vs Derrick Rose
Rose (7-19 4 TO) Monta with 4 steals(although he shot horribly)
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=300315009
Monta vs Kobe
Kobe (9-18 but 9 TO) Monta with 5 steals
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Originally Posted by scottyboy View Post
like honestly lebron, instead of south beach, why don't you take your talents and just shove them up your ass.
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by EvilNixon View Post
What small sample sizes have I used? I said Rose is in the same situation Monta is in, except he actually has NBA level talent around him. He's being forced to be a volume scorer.


Except, he was defending Granger and owning him. Granger wanted no part of Monta Ellis on D. They threw Dahntay Jones,Rush, and everyone they could think of and he could not be stopped.
The small sample size = Rose in 2010. You have absolutely no way of using what Rose has done this season in any type of comparison. You have no idea what Rose will be like in 2010 in a "comparable situation," so why even bring it into the argument?

Oh and good deflection argument with sweetness. Rose's D has nothing to do wit hthe conversation, yet you take a shot at it in hopes to knockdown sweetness. Really, well played. (and for the record, all Bulls fans know Rose isn't great on defense. So, yea...)

The only comparisons you can legitimately use regarding Rose would be his career vs. Monta's, his last season vs. Monta's, or his first 2 years vs. Monta's first 2 years. Regardless, you need to use at least a full season and not 2 games/projecting forward.
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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09-10 Monta and Current Rose are in the same situation. No reliable second scorer. Deng has stunk it up. Noah has been good, but can't rely on him for offense. I didn't say anything about the quality of their play in comparison. I just said they're in the same situation.
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like honestly lebron, instead of south beach, why don't you take your talents and just shove them up your ass.
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by EvilNixon View Post
He is better. And he actually is guarded the best perimeter player on the opposing team, game in and game out, all the while being asked to carry the load on offense, and he did an amazing job last year.

You're a Derrick rose fan talking about Monta's D?

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=291120009
Monta vs Brandon Roy
Roy: (6-17 FG, 4 TO) Monta with 6 steals
http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=291130009
Monta vs Danny Granger(yes he guarded Granger)
Granger (7-17 5 TO) 5 steals for Monta
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=300118009
Monta vs Derrick Rose
Rose (7-19 4 TO) Monta with 4 steals(although he shot horribly)
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=300315009
Monta vs Kobe
Kobe (9-18 but 9 TO) Monta with 5 steals
BUT OMG, WE CAN'T RELY ON STATS!
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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BUT OMG, WE CAN'T RELY ON STATS!
Yes, because over the course of this thread, the guys I've been engaging with have demonstrated that they did not watch or follow the Warriors(which is perfectly understandable seeing as they lose a lot and are mostly a regional team) The problem is they're using stats without knowing the situation in which those stats occurred.
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like honestly lebron, instead of south beach, why don't you take your talents and just shove them up your ass.
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:58 PM    (permalink
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It's funny that Monta Ellis would probably be pretty generally liked, and maybe one of those guys that gets over-rated a bit on here, but instead he's generally hated because this guy won't stop talking about him.

I like Monta, despite EvilNixon.
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by EvilNixon View Post
09-10 Monta and Current Rose are in the same situation. No reliable second scorer. Deng has stunk it up. Noah has been good, but can't rely on him for offense. I didn't say anything about the quality of their play in comparison. I just said they're in the same situation.
Yes, but you used the situation as a qualification that Monta is > Rose because Rose is in the same situation as Monta was last year. That's a completely illegitimate statement to make at this point.

If it were true that those situations are similar (not saying they are or aren't at this point), you would have to wait until the end of the season to compare the two, or at the very least 50-60 games into the season.

And again, even if you want to base this off of Rose's situation right now, you say he has no 2nd scorer. Well that will be true for about 20-25 games until Boozer gets back. What about the other 50+ games when he does have a true scorer? Is that better to use as a comparison than 20 games without one? And what if Rose in those 20 games puts up better #s than Monta did last season, does that mean Rose is automatically better? Even though it's only a 25% of a season of sample size?
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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He was getting trashed before I started defending him ,and the funny part is, I was a huge critic of Monta before last season because of the moped fiasco. He proved himself IMO, to be one of the best young players in basketball and is quickly gaining notoriety for his amazing talent and ability to single handedly win games on the road against elite competition.
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like honestly lebron, instead of south beach, why don't you take your talents and just shove them up your ass.
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:15 PM    (permalink
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Yes, but you used the situation as a qualification that Monta is > Rose because Rose is in the same situation as Monta was last year. That's a completely illegitimate statement to make at this point.

If it were true that those situations are similar (not saying they are or aren't at this point), you would have to wait until the end of the season to compare the two, or at the very least 50-60 games into the season.

And again, even if you want to base this off of Rose's situation right now, you say he has no 2nd scorer. Well that will be true for about 20-25 games until Boozer gets back. What about the other 50+ games when he does have a true scorer? Is that better to use as a comparison than 20 games without one? And what if Rose in those 20 games puts up better #s than Monta did last season, does that mean Rose is automatically better? Even though it's only a 25% of a season of sample size?


No I didn't. I've already compared them earlier in this thread. Monta is the better scorer. Equal play maker and much much better defender. He's a better player period, but Rose plays on a real team with real NBA talent and not Nellieball slop gimmicks.

I was stating that because you guys call Monta a chucker, but when Rose is getting up a lot of shots, he gets praised, despite the fact that Monta played with 4 D-Leaguers getting major minutes and Rose playing with a legit NBA squad.
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like honestly lebron, instead of south beach, why don't you take your talents and just shove them up your ass.
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:37 PM    (permalink
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No I didn't. I've already compared them earlier in this thread. Monta is the better scorer. Equal play maker and much much better defender. He's a better player period, but Rose plays on a real team with real NBA talent and not Nellieball slop gimmicks.

I was stating that because you guys call Monta a chucker, but when Rose is getting up a lot of shots, he gets praised, despite the fact that Monta played with 4 D-Leaguers getting major minutes and Rose playing with a legit NBA squad.
Fair enough. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with that, but I'm just responding to your most recent post on it. Just in your original response was this:

Quote:
Derrick Rose- No. No. No. He's in Monta's position last year. No reliable second option. He doesn't trust them so he forces the action. If Monta's a chucker, so is Rose, and he's not as good a scorer.
In response to whoever saying Rose was better. So you're saying that this season, Rose is a shot chucker. That's fine if you want to say that. But again, it's 2 games into the season and you have no way of knowing if Rose will be a better or worse scorer than Monta. Will he keep averaging 30 or close to it now that he shoots more? No idea. Will his shooting percentage fall drastically (down toward where Monta shot last year) and he only averages 20-23 ppg? No idea.

So you see, there's no way you can say that based on similar situations, that one is better than the other because Rose has only been in a similar situation for 2 games. Wait until Boozer comes back before evaluating Rose in this "situation". And again, if during the Boozer-less time Rose keeps taking this many shots, averaging close to 30 ppg and shooting 44-45%, will that make him better than Monta? Since you are saying they are in similar situations right now?
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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If I'm starting a franchise right now and I have a choice between Monta Ellis or Derrick Rose to be the foundation of my team I'm choosing Derrick 7 days and week and twice on Sunday's.

You can blame the system all you want for Monta's shortcomings. But tell me this, when Derrick played one year in Calipari's iso offense, how come he didn't fall into those bad tendencies? He was a team player who looked to pass first and get his teammates involved even though the offense around him was begging for him to be more aggressive.

You can sit here and argue all you want about how Monta' is such a good offensive player. Or how he's such a good playmaker. Or how he's such a good defender. Awesome.

But there is so much more to this game than what he can do when he has the ball or when he's guarding the ball. Monta is and always will be a combo guard without a true position. He has not, cannot and will never be able to run a team efficiently as a PG and he needs to have the ball waaaayyy to much to be a 2.

This is what separates players like Westbrook and Rose from Ellis. They understand game tempo, floor management, distribution, set running, etc. You can call these ******** arguments or whatever you'd like. But tell me, why if Monta is such an underrated, budding superstar has he failed to lead his team to anywhere close to a winning season in his two years as "the man?" It's his 6th year in the league.

I understand he's battled some injuries, but .Rose was injured for a quarter of the season last year and still got his team to 41 wins after playing an extremely efficient second half of the season. Monta' has failed to get his team over 30 wins the past two years.

This is a team game and all the individual accolades you throw our way about Monta won't mean jack **** if he can't lead his team to consistency in the win column, which is the most important stat of all.

Maybe new coaching will help him out. Maybe some new additions will lighten the load. Or maybe Monta is what he is and that is a talented player who will never be marquee in this league because he's more individual than team oriented and he doesn't have a true position. Time will tell, but please stop ramming this **** down our throats every ******* day.

Your blind homerism is so nauseating that I can't fathom having a civil conversation with you about him because you see no wrong with him as a player despite his many deficiencies. As a one on one player Monta is a stud, but this game is about so much more than that and you fail to see it...or well maybe you do see it, but you look past it and write it off as a minor defect.
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Old 11-01-2010, 05:00 PM    (permalink
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If you berate Nellie for his terrible system then you cannot praise Monta' for the numbers he accumulated in that system. It can't go both ways.
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Old 11-01-2010, 05:08 PM    (permalink
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Oh no no no....I live in Memphis. I've followed U of M basketball since I was in the 7th grade. When Rose got here, we completely abandoned the dribble drive. The year before with CDR,AA, and Dozier was the real dribble drive and we got to the elite 8 with no big time player.

When Rose got here, Cal gave him the keys to the offense. He got free rain to take any shot he wanted and when he was getting lost on D, Cal said nothing because Rose was incredible. He's very unselfish. He couldn't take the team over even with Cal's blessing because that was a veteran group. CDR/AA/Dozier are the winningest class in NCAA history.

You see, last year completely clouds everyone's judgment in regards to Monta's skill. He is not by nature ball dominant. As I continue to reiterate, we had very few NBA caliber players on that roster. Nellie pretty much made Monta be the primary play maker and scorer, all the while he had him defend the opposing team's best perimeter player.....all the while he was playing the most minutes in the NBA.

By nature, he plays off the ball. Catching and quickly attacking. Being very selective on his shots..a lot like Rose, but with no reliable talent around him, he has to take and make some of the most difficult shots on the floor...consistently. There was a point last year where it was clear if Monta couldn't clearly win his match up, we had zero shot to stay close.

You see, Monta has never been given a chance to be a PG full time. He was hurt the year before, and Nellie stupidly started Steph at the 1 and made them "co-PGs" Monta with another 2 on the floor with him is very effective as a primary play maker. He was really developing as that 2 years ago, and when he got that big contract, he was labeled as the PG of the future. He hasn't been given his shot, and unless he gets traded, he won't.

Rose plays in the East. and you're right, he played extremely well. Rose is a fantastic player, and he will always have very soft spot in my fandom because of that FF run at Memphis, but while he has clearly progressed as a scorer, he's not an even above average play maker. Hi vision is average. He's a shorter Dwayne Wade..except he's a much better shooter at this point of his career. He's got a bright future as a top tier scorer, but to say he or Westbrook who is even less a PG than Rose separates them from Monta Ellis is ridiculous. Monta can and has shown the ability to be the main play initiator on O.
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like honestly lebron, instead of south beach, why don't you take your talents and just shove them up your ass.
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Old 11-01-2010, 05:12 PM    (permalink
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If you berate Nellie for his terrible system then you cannot praise Monta' for the numbers he accumulated in that system. It can't go both ways.
You see, the myth of Nellieball numbers is pretty well circulated, but Monta doesn't benefit enough from the inflation because he plays too many minutes. In fact, I'd argue it doesn't affect much at all. Guys like Jamaal Crawford,Baron Davis, and Stephen Jackson's numbers have remained similar even after leaving GS.

Nellieball at it's core is just smallball gambling. The guy who really benefits from Nellieball is the guy who gets the matchup in the small ball. Corey Maggette is a huge example. Corey is a natural 2. He played big minutes at POWER FORWARD last season. He got the advantage of having a less athletic player matched up against him boosting his efficiency. Monta received no benefit.
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like honestly lebron, instead of south beach, why don't you take your talents and just shove them up your ass.
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Old 11-01-2010, 05:28 PM    (permalink
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Be afraid. Be verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry afraid
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Old 11-01-2010, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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I'm disappointed LeBron's face isn't shopped onto that chick's face.
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like honestly lebron, instead of south beach, why don't you take your talents and just shove them up your ass.
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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So the Heat completely shut down the two teams with the best Centers in the league. They have a lot of legitimate issues: offensive chemistry, Carlos Arroyo at PG, Joel Anthony at C, age on the bench. But can we drop this myth that any team is going to steamroll the Heat's defense? They have incredible perimeter defense and there are no Centers in the league that have an even good offensive repertoire to take advantage of their lack of size. The league's lack of Centers in today's game is so pronounced that Andrew Bynum is an X-Factor with a 13/8 average. Miami had an elite defense last year with the same big men, with Big Z swapped in for Jermaine O'Neal. Now they have LeBron James and Chris Bosh instead of Michael Beasley and Quetin Richardson and it is showing in their performance thus far.
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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They can let the inside guy go off because Wade and Bron are locking down the perimeter. Man I can't wait to see Lakers/Heat..
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like honestly lebron, instead of south beach, why don't you take your talents and just shove them up your ass.
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:42 PM    (permalink
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So the Heat completely shut down the two teams with the best Centers in the league. They have a lot of legitimate issues: offensive chemistry, Carlos Arroyo at PG, Joel Anthony at C, age on the bench. But can we drop this myth that any team is going to steamroll the Heat's defense? They have incredible perimeter defense and there are no Centers in the league that have an even good offensive repertoire to take advantage of their lack of size. The league's lack of Centers in today's game is so pronounced that Andrew Bynum is an X-Factor with a 13/8 average. Miami had an elite defense last year with the same big men, with Big Z swapped in for Jermaine O'Neal. Now they have LeBron James and Chris Bosh instead of Michael Beasley and Quetin Richardson and it is showing in their performance thus far.
You'll notice how everyone has stopped talking about the Heat now that they've started to dominate teams.

For what it's worth Lopez was fantastic against them. But it was more because he was hitting shots out of the paint, not because he was posting up and destroying Anthony. Same with Dwight.

This Heat team is going to be SCARY good when they have a couple months under their belt.

Defensively they are already elite. When they gel offensively it's going to be a nightmare for teams to handle.
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:45 PM    (permalink
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The fact that Wade has never made 1st team all-NBA defense is a ******* joke. 2 steals and 1 block (!!!!) per game as a SG is ridiculous.

The reduction in workload has already made Wade, James and Bosh much better defensively, just on shear energy and focus that they save from not being the number one offensive weapon. Bosh has played very well defensively:

1. They really never use him as the Center. Even when they go small they use Haslem on the more physical defensive match-up.

2. Like Ray Allen before him, and even Rashard Lewis to an extent, a change in system has allowed him to utilize his tool-set of athleticism and length. Like Seattle back in the day, no one plays/ed defense in Toronto.

3. A lot has been made of Bosh's offensive woes, which is an issue no doubt, but why hasn't he gotten a lot of credit for the job he did on Kevin Garnett and Rashard Lewis?
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:48 PM    (permalink
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You'll notice how everyone has stopped talking about the Heat now that they've started to dominate teams.

For what it's worth Lopez was fantastic against them. But it was more because he was hitting shots out of the paint, not because he was posting up and destroying Anthony. Same with Dwight.

This Heat team is going to be SCARY good when they have a couple months under their belt.

Defensively they are already elite. When they gel offensively it's going to be a nightmare for teams to handle.

Yeah there shooting percentage is outrageously low right now. Once they figure each other out they should be able to shoot over 50% easy. Just like the Celtics teams of the 80s. The turnovers, likewise, are an area I expect a lot of improvement going forward.
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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It's overlap. Kobe got his recognition as an elite defender, and that's carried over despite him not defending elite perimeter players. Wade is getting hosed. Should have had all team D the past 3 years.
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like honestly lebron, instead of south beach, why don't you take your talents and just shove them up your ass.
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:51 PM    (permalink
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You'll notice how everyone has stopped talking about the Heat now that they've started to dominate teams.
I don't doubt their ability to steam role teams in the regular season and quite possibly approach 70 wins. They have their holes, but you just can't overlook how much talent they have with the big 3.

I doubt their ability to get past Boston and Orlando in a 7 game series when game planning/adjustments come into play a lot more often than what happens in the regular season.

And I still think their weaknesses in the front court will come into play. That said, Forenci is right, they are going to be scary good so long as everyone is getting their slice of the pie. All they need is one of their big 3 to be on any given night and they'll likely be in the game. If two of the big three have big games they'll most likely win. If all 3 of them are on they're going to **** most teams in the NBA.
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Despite looking better against an underachieving Eagles team, I still think the Bears are one of the worst teams in the NFL. I smell a blowout victory by the Lions this week and a division sweep.
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Old 11-01-2010, 07:06 PM    (permalink
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I think they will have more problems with Boston and LA than Orlando. I really don't like how Orlando matches up with them, one bit, Dwight Howard aside.
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