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Old 12-04-2010, 11:01 PM    (permalink
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It is not easy to make the case that Westbrook has been better than Paul and Deron this year, mainly because he hasn't. His percentages are still way too low and he turns the ball over like a ******.
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Old 12-04-2010, 11:10 PM    (permalink
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Guys guys guys, look at the Hornets roster. That team is below .500 without CP3. Nothing has changed, he's the best in the game. Incredibly efficient, fantastic playmaker, improved defender, it's still not a contest for me. And after D-Will there's a clear dropoff.
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Old 12-04-2010, 11:11 PM    (permalink
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I forgot the guy that is 1A to Paul's 1B...

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Old 12-04-2010, 11:17 PM    (permalink
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I feel like Jonny Flynn has become underrated on this board. I don't like him but I don't know that he should be the subject of so many jokes. I mean rookies have had worse seasons than he had.
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Old 12-04-2010, 11:19 PM    (permalink
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Old 12-04-2010, 11:23 PM    (permalink
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I feel like Jonny Flynn has become underrated on this board. I don't like him but I don't know that he should be the subject of so many jokes. I mean rookies have had worse seasons than he had.
I just like teasing you because I gots a crush on you.
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Old 12-04-2010, 11:27 PM    (permalink
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The rest of the NBA really should be afraid of the day Derrick Rose stops being such a nice guy and develops a killer instinct. Who knows if it will ever come, but just think he's playing the way he is this season while still playing pretty passive for like 50% of each game.
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Old 12-04-2010, 11:32 PM    (permalink
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I don't like Deron Williams. Probably because I grew up watching the glove and I don't see the fire in Deron, but I'll also admit I am a hater.
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Old 12-04-2010, 11:57 PM    (permalink
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I don't like Deron Williams. Probably because I grew up watching the glove and I don't see the fire in Deron, but I'll also admit I am a hater.
He's kind of the anti-glove.

I too just was never a fan.

Partially because I loved Dee Brown on Illinois. DWill was an afterthought for me.

But you may be on to something with GP vs DWill. GP was skinny, talking so much ****, whining. DWill is the opposite.

I also never was a huge fan because I hated when people said he was better than CP3.
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Old 12-05-2010, 12:25 AM    (permalink
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Guys guys guys, look at the Hornets roster. That team is below .500 without CP3. Nothing has changed, he's the best in the game. Incredibly efficient, fantastic playmaker, improved defender, it's still not a contest for me. And after D-Will there's a clear dropoff.
Define 'clear drop off.' I think it's fairly obvious that Williams and Paul are the class of the PG's, but Westbrook and Rose have stepped up their games this year and are in the discussion. Both those guys have carried their teams with both Durant and Boozer missing games. Their numbers are pretty incredible respectively for 3rd year players.

It won't be too much longer before both Rose and Westbrook are right up there with Paul and Williams. Maybe it'll be by the end of this year.

Westbrook and Rose have taken the next step in their games and due to their athleticism still have a huge amount of upside left.

If I'm looking for a playmaker I take Paul. If I'm looking for a floor general I take Williams. If I'm looking for an active player I take Westbrook. And if I'm looking for a scorer I take Rose.

Also, Paul is not clearly the best PG in the game. Let's not act like Deron has a large amount of help either. That team is likely below .500 as well without him on the floor. Same goes for the Bulls without Rose (pre-Boozer).

Deron and CP3's numbers are pretty damn comparable and head-to-head Deron has the upper hand. Paul is the better playmaker, but Deron's floor skills and tempo management are ridiculous. They both impact the game in different ways, but they are extremely efficient as well. If you don't think it's a contest between the two you severely underrate how good Deron is.
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Old 12-05-2010, 12:44 AM    (permalink
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Define 'clear drop off.' I think it's fairly obvious that Williams and Paul are the class of the PG's, but Westbrook and Rose have stepped up their games this year and are in the discussion. Both those guys have carried their teams with both Durant and Boozer missing games. Their numbers are pretty incredible respectively for 3rd year players.

It won't be too much longer before both Rose and Westbrook are right up there with Paul and Williams. Maybe it'll be by the end of this year.

Westbrook and Rose have taken the next step in their games and due to their athleticism still have a huge amount of upside left.

If I'm looking for a playmaker I take Paul. If I'm looking for a floor general I take Williams. If I'm looking for an active player I take Westbrook. And if I'm looking for a scorer I take Rose.

Also, Paul is not clearly the best PG in the game. Let's not act like Deron has a large amount of help either. That team is likely below .500 as well without him on the floor. Same goes for the Bulls without Rose (pre-Boozer).

Deron and CP3's numbers are pretty damn comparable and head-to-head Deron has the upper hand. Paul is the better playmaker, but Deron's floor skills and tempo management are ridiculous. They both impact the game in different ways, but they are extremely efficient as well. If you don't think it's a contest between the two you severely underrate how good Deron is.
I'm confused by this entire post. What the hell is a "floor general" and why in the world would it make you choose Williams over Paul? I'm quite certain Paul is just as much of a floor general.

I also think it's false that Deron has the upper hand over Paul. It's an excellent debate between the two but to say there is a clear cut winner I'm not certain is accurate. Williams averages more points, but Paul scores more efficiently. Plus Paul is a better distributor and doesn't turn the ball over. Two of the most important aspects of a PG.

I also disagree with the notion of Rose and Westbrook being near Paul and Deron's level. They have quite a ways to go. As flat out scorers they are both probably better or equal but they can't touch Deron or Paul as passers.

Paul in particular is in his own universe with his A/TO ratio.
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Old 12-05-2010, 12:48 AM    (permalink
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The rest of the NBA really should be afraid of the day Derrick Rose stops being such a nice guy and develops a killer instinct. Who knows if it will ever come, but just think he's playing the way he is this season while still playing pretty passive for like 50% of each game.
Derrick is learning more and more how to be a point guard and that's ******* scary. He has an elite ability to score, but his playmaking skills have taken a large step this year. He's much more than just a drive and kick player now. Certainly not on the level of CP3 or D-Will, but he's become a good playmaker. I know the turnovers are high, but he's had to do everything for our offense pre-Boozer. Teams were dead set on stopping him and making his teammates step up. He didn't have much room to playmake/attack in the half court.

That said, his ability to take over a game offensively is what makes him special. His 3 point shot has become respectable, he's still deadly from mid-range, he's horrifying in the open court and he can get to the rim at will. The only thing keeping him from superstar status right now is his defense (which has improved) and getting to the line more (which is a result of the refs sucking dick and Rose not selling contact).

I think both Deron and Paul are close to finished products. Rose is still growing and will continue to get better (likewise with Westbrook). I'm with Treat on this one. I believe Rose has a killer instinct, but it's just taking a while for it to develop. Plus he's trying to find a balance between being a PG (getting teammates involved) and taking over. There are times though where you want him to say, **** it, I'm taking over. He waits too long to go into attack mode when the team struggles.

When the light finally comes on he's going to be pretty amazing and I firmly believe he's going to be a superstar (top 5 player) by the end of next season. Rose's potential is unreal (Treat and derzza, back me up on this one :D).
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Old 12-05-2010, 01:02 AM    (permalink
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Derrick Rose is unbelievable. Honestly, his upside is just ridiculous. I was actually thinking about this the other day. I could basically repeat everything you said, so I'll try not to do that. Without an extremely well rounded offensive game and while developing his point guard skills, he's 3rd in the NBA in scoring and 9th in assists. Imagine what happens if he improves his ability to knock down the 3 and get to the stripe, passes better and decides to take the team on his back more often. I watch him and he seems like there's so many ways he can round out his game, and yet he's one of the better players in the league right now.

Also, he's got the physical gifts to be an absolute lockdown defender, and I hope to see him improve there over time. No reason he can't harass opposing PG's and jump into passing lanes and get around 2 SPG with his quickness and athleticism.
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Old 12-05-2010, 01:05 AM    (permalink
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I'm confused by this entire post. What the hell is a "floor general" and why in the world would it make you choose Williams over Paul? I'm quite certain Paul is just as much of a floor general.

I also think it's false that Deron has the upper hand over Paul. It's an excellent debate between the two but to say there is a clear cut winner I'm not certain is accurate. Williams averages more points, but Paul scores more efficiently. Plus Paul is a better distributor and doesn't turn the ball over. Two of the most important aspects of a PG.

I also disagree with the notion of Rose and Westbrook being near Paul and Deron's level. They have quite a ways to go. As flat out scorers they are both probably better or equal but they can't touch Deron or Paul as passers.

Paul in particular is in his own universe with his A/TO ratio.
Deron is a bad match up for Paul because of his size. He owned him in their match up in college and he's owned him in the NBA head-to-head. His team always comes out on top and he posts the better numbers (though Deron had more help with a better supporting cast).

What I mean by floor general is commanding the offense, setting tempo, finding hot hands, playing off the ball, leadership, etc. Basketball is more than box scores and Deron has top notch intangibles. I've long believed that Paul is a bit of a *****, though most of you will probably disagree. Deron can impact a game without the ball in his hands. Paul is a ball dominant player that excels when he's playmaking.

As flat out scorers Paul and Deron don't touch Rose, which is why I say he should be in the discussion. Westbrook has significantly improved well. And Derrick's point guard skills have taken another step. Derrick can impact the game in ways Deron and Paul can only dream of. Much like they can do things Derrick could never do. We need to stop pigeon holing the PG position as a distributor/playmaker. PG's now a days are more scoring oriented and have become #1 scoring options for their teams.

Oh and this whole turnovers/distributing being the most important aspects for the PG position is a bunch of bullocks. Winning is an important aspect for the PG position. Commanding your team is an extremely important aspect for the PG position, yet those aren't stat related. You don't measure a player by his stats alone. You measure wins. A lot of deciding factors in games go unnoticed in the box score. When I watch Deron and Paul I see two very good PG's that do different things for their teams, yet are both having big time success so far this year. Both command their offenses (albeit in different fashions) and look like the best player on the floor most nights.

Deron means as much to his teams success as Paul does with his. Just because Paul puts up better box score numbers doesn't necessarily mean he's the superior player. Some guys just have a knack for winning games and others put up monster stats yet find their team struggling. I wonder why.
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Old 12-05-2010, 01:11 AM    (permalink
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If he was so good at driving to the hoop, why didn't he do it before Amare was here?

I don't buy that crap that he's a great driver. He's not. He's a finesse player who likes taking jump shots.

He'll drive occasionally, but his game is built on jump shots. If he truly was a guy who can drive to the hoop, he'd do it more often. Period. Nothing about D'Antoni's system says that he MUST hang out at the 3 point line 80% of the time and just pull up bad jump shots.

And he's not even a great shooter, he's a volume shooter who happens to get hot once in awhile. He's not a consistent jump shooter at all.

He's just not that good. I don't see it.
No, but every play of Mike D's that was released in his book or have shown up in subsequent articles have a player who's job it is to be or get to the 3pt line to be there for the kickout. Problem is our team doesn't have anyone who's a good enough 3 pt shooter to really fill that role ideally so Gallo, our de facto best shooter, is thrust into that role. Plus he's still a really young player who had to deal with a team of selfish morons and so a lot of times would go multiple possessions without touching a ball, no rhythm shooter can keep that rhythm without even touching the ball. Let's talk at the end of the year, if you still don't see the ceiling I do I'll concede defeat, but he's upped his play since Amare called the team out like everyone else so I'm optimistic that sooner or later you guys will start to see what I see.
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Old 12-05-2010, 01:15 AM    (permalink
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Here's a little literature for those who don't believe Deron has had the upper hand in the match up vs Paul.

http://www.slcdunk.com/2010/11/24/18...ns-vs-the-jazz

Oh and as far as this "efficiency" thing goes with scoring. Paul is scoring 16ppg on 49% shooting. Deron is scoring 21.6 on 46.7%. Pretty comparable efficiency numbers.

It's certainly debatable between who is the better player, but to say that Paul is the clear cut favorite is pretty asinine, which is what I was trying to allude to. I have an obvious bias toward Deron because I'm an Illini fan, but I'm certainly not the only one who would take Deron over Paul. Deron has been so underrated throughout his career it's ridiculous.
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Despite looking better against an underachieving Eagles team, I still think the Bears are one of the worst teams in the NFL. I smell a blowout victory by the Lions this week and a division sweep.
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Old 12-05-2010, 08:15 AM    (permalink
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Rose might pass CP3 this year. He looks noticeably less explosive than before the injury.
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like honestly lebron, instead of south beach, why don't you take your talents and just shove them up your ass.
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:41 AM    (permalink
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Here's a little literature for those who don't believe Deron has had the upper hand in the match up vs Paul.

http://www.slcdunk.com/2010/11/24/18...ns-vs-the-jazz

Oh and as far as this "efficiency" thing goes with scoring. Paul is scoring 16ppg on 49% shooting. Deron is scoring 21.6 on 46.7%. Pretty comparable efficiency numbers.

It's certainly debatable between who is the better player, but to say that Paul is the clear cut favorite is pretty asinine, which is what I was trying to allude to. I have an obvious bias toward Deron because I'm an Illini fan, but I'm certainly not the only one who would take Deron over Paul. Deron has been so underrated throughout his career it's ridiculous.
I wasn't just referring to FG%. Paul is better from 3 point land (smaller sample size though), as well as shooting 91% from the free throw line. Also, Deron averages 3 more minutes than Paul, which doesn't seem like much, but could easily help close the scoring gap.

And yes, it is debatable who is the better player. That was the whole point of my previous post. You were saying Deron was better. I was saying that's not really true because they're both pretty equal and a case can be made for either.

I also don't know how being considered the best or second best PG in the league for the past several years constitutes being underrated, but okay.

In regards to your other post about "winning" as being the most important aspect for a point guard...well, that's weak. But it's a pretty weak argument in any sport. A team oriented stat like winning is just that...team based. I don't care how good Paul and Deron are, they can't win by themselves. But up until this point, Deron has always had much better players to play with.
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Old 12-05-2010, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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Rose might pass CP3 this year. He looks noticeably less explosive than before the injury.
youre joking right?


hey everyone this guy thinks hes funny....
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 12-05-2010, 08:43 PM    (permalink
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What a game. OKC was blowing us out early. Steph and Monta catch fire and bring us back only to come up short...great game.
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like honestly lebron, instead of south beach, why don't you take your talents and just shove them up your ass.
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Old 12-05-2010, 08:49 PM    (permalink
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Amare Stoudamire beasted on us today. Amir Johnson played pretty beastly so that's a good sign I guess.
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Old 12-05-2010, 11:15 PM    (permalink
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Pretty routine at this point but another double double for Blake. Another big game for Gordon too but another loss. Wesley Matthews is the truth..
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Old 12-05-2010, 11:33 PM    (permalink
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Wesley Mathews is my boy. He is just so good.
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Football...it's rocket surgery now, folks.
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:02 AM    (permalink
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And I got D to give him to me in fantasy as a throw-in. :p
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Old 12-06-2010, 05:52 AM    (permalink
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Wesley Matthews is a stud. Solid defender with potential to be a lock down guy, and a majorly improved scorer. Decent shot and can really use his strength to get inside. Earlier in the year he was actually shooting Portland into losses, but as of late he has been far more judicious with shot selection and really hitting his 3's and trying to get to the line. Hopefully Lezar Hayward develops into a similar player to Matthews. Hah funny even Jerel McNeal is in the league. Dominic James college career really imploded when early on he looked like a potential lottery pick and a more slight Jameer Nelson.
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