NBA Discussion Thread

[Chucky]

Originally Posted by yo123

Meh. I absolutely hate him. Bad defender, not a great rebounder, literally the softest big man in the league, does almost nothing but take open 15 footers.....ugh I hate him so much. That was just an guess though, if I had to put 24 guys above him I don't know if I could do it but the list would definitely be longer than yours.

oh what the hell I'll give it a shot.

In no order off the top of my head

1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3. Durant
4. CP3
5. Deron
6. Westbrook
7. Rondo
8. Rose
9. Wade
10. Gasol
11. Dirk
12. Pierce
13. KG
14. Amare
15. Carmelo
16. Aldridge
17. Love (Deal with it)
18. Howard

I'd also take guys like Odom and Ginobili over him too but I'm probably in the minority there.

So 19th and I'm probably forgetting people.

Take Love out of there. Aldridge is pretty damn close(Aldridge obviously the better year this year) and I wouldn't put KG there either at this point in his career.

[Zycho32]

Originally Posted by Chucky

Take Love out of there. Aldridge is pretty damn close(Aldridge obviously the better year this year) and I wouldn't put KG there either at this point in his career.

Hold up.

Love is showing to be a more capable rebounder, though the defense isn't defendable. Near as I can tell Love makes less waves too.

And KG still defends, period.

[yo123]

Aldridge isn't close, he's an MVP candidate this year, the only thing Bosh has on Love is defense and Bosh isn't even good at that, and KG is still a great defender and actually knows what it takes to play inside in the playoffs.

[Sniper]

Originally Posted by Zycho32

Intriguing. So what were his statlines in the next series?

Game 1- 35 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 blocks, 3 steals
Game 2- 24 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 blocks, 3 steals
Game 3- 38 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 blocks, 1 steal
Game 4- 22 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists, 1 block, 2 steals
Game 5- 15 points, 6 rebounds, 7 assists, 0 blocks, 1 steal
Game 6- 27 points, 19 rebounds, 10 assists, 1 block, 3 steals

26.8 points, 9.3 rebounds, 7.2 assists, 1.3 blocks, 2.2 steals. Boston had the No. 5 ranked scoring defense, while Chicago had the No. 13 ranked scoring D. Boston's frontcourt was also better than Chicago, if I'm not mistaken. We can keep pretending like LBJ did nothing in the Boston series if it works for your argument, though. It's not true, but we can also pin the whole series loss on him if you want.

[Pil]

Originally Posted by Sniper

Game 1- 35 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 blocks, 3 steals
Game 2- 24 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 blocks, 3 steals
Game 3- 38 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 blocks, 1 steal
Game 4- 22 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists, 1 block, 2 steals
Game 5- 15 points, 6 rebounds, 7 assists, 0 blocks, 1 steal
Game 6- 27 points, 19 rebounds, 10 assists, 1 block, 3 steals

26.8 points, 9.3 rebounds, 7.2 assists, 1.3 blocks, 2.2 steals. Boston had the No. 5 ranked scoring defense, while Chicago had the No. 13 ranked scoring D. Boston's frontcourt was also better than Chicago, if I'm not mistaken. We can keep pretending like LBJ did nothing in the Boston series if it works for your argument, though. It's not true, but we can also pin the whole series loss on him if you want.

<Requests you research more minutia that he'll be wrong about.>

[yo123]

Game 6 really was his fault though, he flat out quit down the stretch despite the ridiculous numbers.

[Chucky]

Originally Posted by yo123

Aldridge isn't close, he's an MVP candidate this year, the only thing Bosh has on Love is defense and Bosh isn't even good at that, and KG is still a great defender and actually knows what it takes to play inside in the playoffs.

Bosh is a better scorer than Love as well, and is waaaaaaaaay better than Love defensively(although that isn't saying much I guess).

KG is still a great defender, but he has lost quite a bit at this point in his career. It's tough between those two

[Sniper]

Originally Posted by Pil

<Requests you research more minutia that he'll be wrong about.>

You know you're a good player when your "worst" playoff game is a triple-double that's one rebound away from being a 20/20/10 game.

[Zycho32]

Originally Posted by Sniper

Game 1- 35 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 blocks, 3 steals
Game 2- 24 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 blocks, 3 steals
Game 3- 38 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 blocks, 1 steal
Game 4- 22 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists, 1 block, 2 steals
Game 5- 15 points, 6 rebounds, 7 assists, 0 blocks, 1 steal
Game 6- 27 points, 19 rebounds, 10 assists, 1 block, 3 steals

26.8 points, 9.3 rebounds, 7.2 assists, 1.3 blocks, 2.2 steals. Boston had the No. 5 ranked scoring defense, while Chicago had the No. 13 ranked scoring D. Boston's frontcourt was also better than Chicago, if I'm not mistaken. We can keep pretending like LBJ did nothing in the Boston series if it works for your argument, though. It's not true, but we can also pin the whole series loss on him if you want.

Pass.

The big problem about using the Supporting Cast as an excuse- even when totally viable- is that there's no concrete point where you can no longer rightfully use it as an excuse should the team not win a title. If LeBron goes his entire career without being on a title winning team, the argument can be made that he never was part of the ideal team for him. And while such an argument can be debated, it can never be proven completely incorrect.

[Sniper]

Originally Posted by Zycho32

Pass.

The big problem about using the Supporting Cast as an excuse- even when totally viable- is that there's no concrete point where you can no longer rightfully use it as an excuse should the team not win a title.

Don't hurt your shoulder with all that reaching so far.

[yo123]

Originally Posted by Chucky

Bosh is a better scorer than Love as well, and is waaaaaaaaay better than Love defensively(although that isn't saying much I guess).

KG is still a great defender, but he has lost quite a bit at this point in his career. It's tough between those two

Bosh seriously isn't waaaaaay better than anyone defensively, there's really no way you can prove defense statistically but just going by what I see he's trash. At least Love tries to be physical.

Scoring wise they're about the same, Bosh shoots a slightly higher percentage but Love also shoots a lot of threes which skews that, Love can get his points in a bigger variety of ways than Bosh.

[yo123]

Unrelated but if the NBA is trying to expand interest overseas why the hell did they send the Raptors and Nets?

[Zycho32]

Originally Posted by Sniper

Don't hurt your shoulder with all that reaching so far.

Is it a reach?

Think about it- what kind of supporting lineup would LeBron have to play with before you would drop the supporting cast excuse? If not this present Miami roster, then who has to be added or replaced?

[Sniper]

Originally Posted by Zycho32

Is it a reach?

Think about it- what kind of supporting lineup would LeBron have to play with before you would drop the supporting cast excuse? If not this present Miami roster, then who has to be added or replaced?

Bosh would have to be replaced by a power forward or center with actual testicles.

[Chucky]

Originally Posted by yo123

Bosh seriously isn't waaaaaay better than anyone defensively, there's really no way you can prove defense statistically but just going by what I see he's trash. At least Love tries to be physical.

Scoring wise they're about the same, Bosh shoots a slightly higher percentage but Love also shoots a lot of threes which skews that, Love can get his points in a bigger variety of ways than Bosh.

Love is absolutely horrendous defensively. It is comical to watch. I don't really know how else to put it with no stats.

Bosh's stats are severely skewed by being the third option on his team as Love's are by garbage time stats.

[fenikz]

what do you think the heat could get in return for bosh?

[Zycho32]

Originally Posted by Sniper

Bosh would have to be replaced by a power forward or center with actual testicles.

And if that didn't work?

And if the NEXT great idea didn't work? And the next? And the next?

Do you see what I am getting at? The most likely scenario in which you would stop complaining about the deficiencies of the supporting cast is when that team actually wins a title. Then you can happily proclaim that your viewpoint is validated.

[Sniper]

Originally Posted by Zycho32

And if that didn't work?

And if the NEXT great idea didn't work? And the next? And the next?

Do you see what I am getting at? The most likely scenario in which you would stop complaining about the deficiencies of the supporting cast is when that team actually wins a title. Then you can happily proclaim that your viewpoint is validated.

You can play the "if that didn't work" game with any player. Singling out James is a tad overboard, but that seems to be your M.O. .

[Pil]

If LeBron finishes his career on a linear-age projection for an inner-circle talent, and still doesn't have a ring he'll be vilified and belittled mercilessly. I won't agree with any of it.

He was drafted to a historically bad team. A team with a dearth of draft picks, a good PF (Boozer) that would leave, and a Front Office that used it's one shot at free agency to give Larry Hughes an albatross deal.

Carried them to playoff appearance after playoff appearance. Performed very, very well in playoffs and still lost. Did this so many times that any attempts to build core of talent was futile because of late draft picks. Front office trades any potential building blocks for proven albeit expensive and old veterans that render any chance at free agency acquisitions dead. Not that anyone would sign regardless.

Leaves in frustration. Joins talented pals while simultaneously hamstringing new team from developing balanced roster. Never wins championship as Big Three decline and miss their first three chances.

"What else could I have done? Went to Chicago and caused a rift with Rose? NY with Amar'knee and who?

LeBron would've had to take an extreme paycut to join a dynasty team. The Heat aren't built to last but they'll have a shot or two.

[Zycho32]

Originally Posted by Sniper

You can play the "if that didn't work" game with any player. Singling out James is a tad overboard, but that seems to be your M.O. .

True, it probably is a tad overboard, but so is the reputation and expectation associated with him to begin with.

And by choosing to come to Miami and join a 'Super-Squad' in a bid to win titles and become a dynasty, while having already created what appears to be a larger-than-life persona and marketing goldmine, LeBron did in fact set himself up to take the lion's share of responsibility should he come short.

[Zycho32]

Originally Posted by Pil

If LeBron finishes his career on a linear-age projection for an inner-circle talent, and still doesn't have a ring he'll be vilified and belittled mercilessly. I won't agree with any of it.

He was drafted to a historically bad team. A team with a dearth of draft picks, a good PF (Boozer) that would leave, and a Front Office that used it's one shot at free agency to give Larry Hughes an albatross deal.

Carried them to playoff appearance after playoff appearance. Performed very, very well in playoffs and still lost. Did this so many times that any attempts to build core of talent was futile because of late draft picks. Front office trades any potential building blocks for proven albeit expensive and old veterans that render any chance at free agency acquisitions dead. Not that anyone would sign regardless.

Leaves in frustration. Joins talented pals while simultaneously hamstringing new team from developing balanced roster. Never wins championship as Big Three decline and miss their first three chances.

"What else could I have done? Went to Chicago and caused a rift with Rose? NY with Amar'knee and who?

LeBron would've had to take an extreme paycut to join a dynasty team. The Heat aren't built to last but they'll have a shot or two.

Sounds like we need to go over the blueprint of what has made championship teams in the NBA's history, doesn't it?

[yo123]

Originally Posted by Chucky

Love is absolutely horrendous defensively. It is comical to watch. I don't really know how else to put it with no stats.

Bosh's stats are severely skewed by being the third option on his team as Love's are by garbage time stats.

Let's be serious here. How many Wolves games have you seen this year? 2? Half the time Love has a double double by halftime, hardly garbage time. I never said Love isn't horrendous defensively that's an inarguable point. I'm saying Bosh is brutal himself and the defensive difference isn't enough to make up the huge rebounding difference.

[Chucky]

Originally Posted by yo123

Let's be serious here. How many Wolves games have you seen this year? 2? Half the time Love has a double double by halftime, hardly garbage time. I never said Love isn't horrendous defensively that's an inarguable point. I'm saying Bosh is brutal himself and the defensive difference isn't enough to make up the huge rebounding difference.

I wouldn't say Bosh is brutal defensively.

[yo123]

Originally Posted by Chucky

I wouldn't say Bosh is brutal defensively.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree then because they're really isn't any chance of swaying opinions when it comes to defense given how terrible the statistics are right now.

[P-L]

I just don't understand all the hypocrisy regarding James. First everyone calls him a coward when he passes the final shot to a wide open teammate. Then when takes the last minute shot and misses, he sucks and only took the shot because he's selfish. Make up your mind people. He's not great at taking the final shot, it's pretty much his only weakness. With that understood, do you want him to take the last shot or not? You can't have it both ways.

Secondly, why is clutch only measured by the "final shot?" Is it because they always show it on Sports Center? LeBron is a monster in the playoff. I considering raising your game to another level in the playoffs to be clutch. He's usually really good in the fourth quarter as a whole, until it comes to the game-winning/tying shot. I consider playing exceptionally well late in games to be clutch also. He's not one of the most clutch players to play, but it's unfair to suggest he folds in all pressure situations. I've said it before and I still stand by it: If my team team is down ten with five minutes to go, I'll take LeBron over anyone else. However, if my team is down two with 20 seconds left then I'll take someone else (probably Kobe).