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View Poll Results: Is Channing Frye the most influential NBA PLAYER EVER?
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:41 PM    (permalink
prock
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Originally Posted by 7-11 View Post
Haha, nice try but in calling me out you basically shot yourself in the foot. Eric Snow and company? are you ******* kidding me? Don't try to act all high and mighty when you don't actually know what you're talking about. And very cute with your little cough cough things but i actually say a couple of posts ago that i don't think Lebron will ever be on MJ's level.

2000 was actually the first year i really started getting into basketball so i can actually make a decent assessment of that 76ers team.

Eric Snow and company...well why don't you go and have a look at that team and how it was built. To start the season they had Theo Ratliff who was a damn good defensive center in those days, when he went down they made a trade for Dikembe Mutumbo and i'm going to assume you know what he was about (defensive player of the year that year). Eric Snow as you mentioned was a very good defensive PG who could also guard a lot of shooting guards which made life much easier for AI. Tyrone Hill was the starting PF, strong defensive player, a double-double sort of guy and former all-star. George Lynch started at SF and was a very good defensive wing. Aaron Mckie was the 6th man of the year that year and provided a bit of scoring and playmaking for a team that didn't have a lot of options in that area. Combine all this with Larry Brown who is one of the greatest defensive coaches of all-time and this roster full of hard-nosed defensive role-players was basically perfectly constructed around an iso volume scorer in AI (i know this is doing AI a disservice but for arguments sake that's what i'm calling him).

And yes, i'm taking that supporting cast over Z, Drew Gooden (yuk), Larry Hughes (yuk-er), Donyell Marshall, Wally, Delonte, Boobie, Mo Williams and Flopajao.
You mean the supporting cast that Lebron hand picked and the team built exactly to fit around him? Those Cavs teams were designed around Lebron. Z was a solid C for awhile, Hughes was a former first team all defense, Wally was a sharpshooter for awhile, Boobie was a good shooter, Mo Williams was a former all-star too, so being a former all-star doesn't hold much water for your argument. "Flopajao" was a very good defensive big man who you got mad hustle points from, Donyell Marshall was a piece of **** but Lebron wanted him, and Drew Gooden put up some double doubles as well, averaging like 11 and 8.
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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And for ***** sake Scottie never said Lebron was better, and even if he did i'd value his opinion over "prock's" any day of the week.
"But I may go as far as to say LeBron James may be the greatest player to ever play the game because he is so potent offensively that not only can he score at will but he keeps everybody involved." - Scottie Pippen

Believe what you want, but that seems pretty clear to me.

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I do get it obviously you don't get it.



LeBron joined Wades team and made it his.
I disagree for the same reasons that have been posted in this thread a million times.

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I gave a couple examples of him being clutch not all them. I did not know I was suppose to name them all. Yes, I am the one that is blinded.
The guy has had a reputation of not being clutch and crumbling in late game moments his whole career, except for a few instances. I will side with the trend.
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Old 05-28-2011, 04:27 PM    (permalink
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Yeah and they almost made it to the conference finals with that "scrub" roster without Rodman or Jordan if it wasn't for that bogus call. Tell me what have did the Mo Williams aka " Scottie Pippen 2.0" led Cavs do this season? Let me guess it was it Big Z that carried all Cavs teams and he was the missing piece not LeBron.

Yeah let's just ignore that the Eastern Conference has been a joke throughout Lebron's career until now. He gets some unfair blame for the playoff losses but he's not without fault.
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Old 05-28-2011, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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I disagree for the same reasons that have been posted in this thread a million times.



The guy has had a reputation of not being clutch and crumbling in late game moments his whole career, except for a few instances. I will side with the trend.
The reason being he joined a team Wade was already on?


He has been clutch almost every year in the playoffs, IDK what you are talking about him having a reputation for crumbling late games.

edit: I hope you are not talking about this regular season where he missed a couple GW shots.

Last edited by Complex : 05-28-2011 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 05-28-2011, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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Yeah let's just ignore that the Eastern Conference has been a joke throughout Lebron's career until now. He gets some unfair blame for the playoff losses but he's not without fault.
Okay the East has been a joke throughout LeBron's career okay?he carried that terrible team in the playoffs. In that same crappy conference the Cavs finished dead last without LeBron, its not like they were in playoff contention or something.
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Old 05-28-2011, 07:29 PM    (permalink
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You mean the supporting cast that Lebron hand picked and the team built exactly to fit around him? Those Cavs teams were designed around Lebron. Z was a solid C for awhile, Hughes was a former first team all defense, Wally was a sharpshooter for awhile, Boobie was a good shooter, Mo Williams was a former all-star too, so being a former all-star doesn't hold much water for your argument. "Flopajao" was a very good defensive big man who you got mad hustle points from, Donyell Marshall was a piece of **** but Lebron wanted him, and Drew Gooden put up some double doubles as well, averaging like 11 and 8.
The fact that they let a 19 to 25 year old basketball player, who has proven to do some very dumb things in the past construct their roster surely tells you something, it was most probably rubbish. Really this isn't an argument about Lebron's skills as a GM.

Any way, i'm over it, you take the Cleveland supporting cast and i'll stick to the 76ers.
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Old 05-28-2011, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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Okay the East has been a joke throughout LeBron's career okay?he carried that terrible team in the playoffs. In that same crappy conference the Cavs finished dead last without LeBron, its not like they were in playoff contention or something.

I didn't say it was a good supporting cast. I've actually defended Lebron a ton in this thread because his supporting cast was so bad over the years. But to try to compare him to Jordan right now is completely ridiculous. Before this year he made one finals appearance in 7 years in an atrocious conference. That's not something you compare to the greatest player of all time. I don't care if MJ was in a similar position at that point in his career, Lebron still hasn't DONE it yet and it's ridiculous to just assume he will.
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Old 05-28-2011, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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You mean the supporting cast that Lebron hand picked and the team built exactly to fit around him? Those Cavs teams were designed around Lebron. Z was a solid C for awhile, Hughes was a former first team all defense, Wally was a sharpshooter for awhile, Boobie was a good shooter, Mo Williams was a former all-star too, so being a former all-star doesn't hold much water for your argument. "Flopajao" was a very good defensive big man who you got mad hustle points from, Donyell Marshall was a piece of **** but Lebron wanted him, and Drew Gooden put up some double doubles as well, averaging like 11 and 8.
I doubt LeBron hand picked the roster. I remember LeBron wanted Cleveland to go after some free agents during free agency but the Cavs wanted him to sign before they did that. I also remember that the Cavs did not want to trade JJ Hickson for Amare, let me guess it was LeBron that wanted to JJ Hickson. Hughes was a former 1st team defense of player because he got a bunch steals one season. Wally was garbage with Cavs at least those guys that 7-11 listed actually played well with the 76ers.

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Old 05-28-2011, 08:13 PM    (permalink
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I find the LBJ nuthugging in here quite amusing. Dude shouldn't even be in the same breath as MJ. Dude's not even top 10-15 at this point.
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Old 05-28-2011, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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I didn't say it was a good supporting cast. I've actually defended Lebron a ton in this thread because his supporting cast was so bad over the years. But to try to compare him to Jordan right now is completely ridiculous. Before this year he made one finals appearance in 7 years in an atrocious conference. That's not something you compare to the greatest player of all time. I don't care if MJ was in a similar position at that point in his career, Lebron still hasn't DONE it yet and it's ridiculous to just assume he will.
I am not saying he is MJ, all I have been trying to say is Jordan did not carry Kwame Brown, Adam Morrison, Tryone Lue and Sasha Vujacic to 6 championships. We don't know what Jordan, Magic and Bird would of done if they played with Lebron supporting cast and were free agents.
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Old 05-28-2011, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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Complex we get it you are a Lebron fan but you are not going to convince anyone here that he is MJ's class just give it up already.
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Old 05-28-2011, 08:48 PM    (permalink
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Luc Longley > Wade and Bosh
As unfortunate as this sounds, this qualifies as the smartest post in this thread since last July.
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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"But I may go as far as to say LeBron James may be the greatest player to ever play the game because he is so potent offensively that not only can he score at will but he keeps everybody involved." - Scottie Pippen
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/trueho...ory?id=6603651

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Pippen -- who won six championships alongside Jordan in Chicago during the Bulls' epic run in the 1990s -- told ESPN Radio on Friday that while Jordan is "probably the greatest scorer to play the game," James "may be the greatest player to ever play the game."

Pippen even backed up the comments later on Twitter, hours after his words sparked a bit of a firestorm, though tried to clarify a bit by saying that while he thinks Jordan "is the greatest," James "could" reach that pinnacle in time.
It's been publicised quite a bit since that he meant he could reach that level.
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:31 PM    (permalink
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LeBron is 26. He has a long way to go before his career is over. MJ's best years were his late 20's and early 30's. The next decade or more will decide LeBron's place. Not meaningless arguments on message boards.
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:39 PM    (permalink
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LeBron is 26. He has a long way to go before his career is over. MJ's best years were his late 20's and early 30's. The next decade or more will decide LeBron's place. Not meaningless arguments on message boards.
this may well beat the Luc Longley comment.
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:41 PM    (permalink
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LeBron is 26. He has a long way to go before his career is over. MJ's best years were his late 20's and early 30's. The next decade or more will decide LeBron's place. Not meaningless arguments on message boards.
Who exactly was saying that their opinion matters?
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:55 PM    (permalink
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Care to elaborate or don't you actually have anything to add?
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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except the whole late 20's-30's thing is MJ got by on saavy, smarts and a killer jumper. Lebron gets by on being something formed out of a lab. He's one of the most freakish people on the planet. I dont know if he can keep that up. I've said so many times in the past (not so much now with his decline) but in the whole kobe-lebron debates: Lebron may be the better overall player, but kobe has better basketball skills. Lebron gets by on his unreal athleticism moreso than anything else
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Not exactly necessary but....i kinda felt the same too haha
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:01 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by raiderz4life View Post
Not exactly necessary but....i kinda felt the same too haha
can you explain why if he doesn't want to? Because in my eyes surrounding a guy who probably wants to take 25, normally unassisted shots a game with a team full of good defensive players and an excellent defensive coach seems like a decent idea to me. I'm not saying they were world beaters, all i've ever said is that they're better than Lebron's Cavs team.
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:14 PM    (permalink
yodabear
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LeBron is 26. He has a long way to go before his career is over. MJ's best years were his late 20's and early 30's. The next decade or more will decide LeBron's place. Not meaningless arguments on message boards.
Haha, I spoke too soon. This is prolly the smartest comment made since last July in this thread.
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Old 05-29-2011, 01:20 AM    (permalink
JeffSamardzijaIRISH
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Yeah, Lebron had a couple clutch games in these playoffs. Those like two games completely erase a career reputation of being unclutch haha. You are so full of ****.
Firstly, I was mocking the dude who said that the Heat won by making huge comebacks. Secondly, Lebron's screwed up a few game winning possessions this year for the Heat, but so what? Kobe's missed 5 straight game winners/tying shots in the playoffs, yet he's known as one of the most clutch to ever play. Lebron's been clutch his whole career, just watch this video.


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Old 05-29-2011, 11:27 AM    (permalink
Halsey
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except the whole late 20's-30's thing is MJ got by on saavy, smarts and a killer jumper. Lebron gets by on being something formed out of a lab.
You don't know how LeBron will continue to evolve. It's a delusion to think you do. Nobody was calling Jordan the undeniable GOAT at 26. Jordan was not as complete a player at 26 as he was at 30. LeBron is more well rounded now than he was 4 years ago.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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The fact that they let a 19 to 25 year old basketball player, who has proven to do some very dumb things in the past construct their roster surely tells you something, it was most probably rubbish. Really this isn't an argument about Lebron's skills as a GM.

Any way, i'm over it, you take the Cleveland supporting cast and i'll stick to the 76ers.
You're right. This isn't a referendum on his acumen as a general manager. But it has evolved into an argument about how LeBron has soured in the eyes of most fans. The crux of that, for me at least, is his perceived arrogance and lack of accountability for his actions. When he left the Cavs to sign with the Heat, he made allusions that his supporting cast in Cleveland was not sufficient enough to win a championship. A supporting cast that had his stamp of approval all over it, mind you. The bottom-line is I can't fault the man for the decision he made because I might have made the same choice as a born Clevelander if I were in his position. But I absolutely can dislike him for how he handled himself throughout the process.

As far as the supporting cast argument goes, you're splitting hairs either way, in my opinion. The main point is that both teams were built around a single superstar and everything else was specifically tailored to compliment that player's game. As you said, A.I. was a volume scorer that dominated the ball in an isolation-based offense because his skills one-on-one were unmatched. So, to allow their superstar to flourish, the 76ers went out and got pieces that didn't require the ball to flow on offense, would clean the glass hard, would manufacture second-chance points, would hustle for loose balls, and compensate for A.I.'s defensive deficiencies. Everything fit like a glove.

Similarly, the Cavs realized they had one of the most freakish physical specimens in NBA history as their cornerstone, who happened to be borderline unstoppable at getting to the basket and possessed almost prophetic court vision. So, to complete the puzzle, they filled out their roster with sharpshooters and role players. Guys that could bury their jumpers when the defense packed the paint. Guys that could clean the glass and fight for extra possessions. Guys that believed in a defensive mentality. Guys that would scratch and claw and make the game ugly.

At the end of the day, neither supporting casts were anything special. But it is inarguable that both supporting casts were assembled with their superstar's skill set and talents in mind. In that regard, they're not all that different.

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I doubt LeBron hand picked the roster. I remember LeBron wanted Cleveland to go after some free agents during free agency but the Cavs wanted him to sign before they did that. I also remember that the Cavs did not want to trade JJ Hickson for Amare, let me guess it was LeBron that wanted to JJ Hickson. Hughes was a former 1st team defense of player because he got a bunch steals one season. Wally was garbage with Cavs at least those guys that 7-11 listed actually played well with the 76ers.
Quite frankly, if you doubt he pretty much handpicked his roster, you're sadly mistaken. He literally was the most powerful superstar in NBA history.

And the notion that LeBron wanted Cleveland to pursue key free agents is a two-way street. Obviously LeBron wanted the Cavs to bring marquee players to Cleveland. But LeBron never made that kind of commitment to the team. Have fun selling a big-time free agent on taking a discounted long-term contract when the face of the franchise has made it apparent that leaving is a distinct possibility. It's just not going to happen. No upper-tier NBA player wants to spend the prime of their career mired in mediocrity or worse in Cleveland.

As far as the alleged J.J. Hickson for Amare swap goes, that trade was misreported in the media around the deadline. First, J.J. Hickson was not the deal-breaker for the Cavs. Second, the front office was a little concerned on a signability front. But they were still willing to ship Hickson to Phoenix if it meant getting Amare in return. The Suns simply decided to make one final playoff push with their core intact. Really nothing the Cavs can do about that.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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No Rings? **** outta here..
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