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Old 06-23-2012, 05:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Brodeur View Post
What's the fallacy for "everything was better back in the days" called, again? Because MJ got away with more than LeBron did, so shut up BBD.
What is this, Midnight in Paris?
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
MJ got plenty of calls yes, but he also had to fight through hand checking, and a brand of basketball that was a lot more physical than today's game.

You were like 5 when MJ played so sit your ass down.
I was about 8 when he retired, and I remember enough from the days then and seen enough old games to know the calls he benefited from. Stop pretending he didn't get as many calls as LeBron, you're just falling into this rosy colored glasses of the past ********. Yes, the game was slightly tougher back then as far as physical contact. But MJ benefited more than anyone when they decided it was time to cut down on contact.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:11 PM    (permalink
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I was about 8 when he retired, and I remember enough from the days then and seen enough old games to know the calls he benefited from. Stop pretending he didn't get as many calls as LeBron, you're just falling into this rosy colored glasses of the past ********. Yes, the game was slightly tougher back then as far as physical contact. But MJ benefited more than anyone when they decided it was time to cut down on contact.
All I'm saying is he played much tougher defenses then, bc they were allowed to D up more then. Banning hand checking pretty much was equivalent to the illegal contact rule for CBs in football. It opened up Guard play immensely and made it much easier to attack the basket.

That's why PGs have seen a rebirth in the NBA over the past 6 years.

Hard fouls on anyone who attacked the paint was much more frequent back then too. They call flagrant fouls now on anything remotely physical.

I'm not gonna make an MJ vs LeBron comparison, bc there is no comparison. That wasn't my intention. All I'm saying is, the paint wouldn't be so wide open for LeBron in that era, and he'd get hit in the mouth a lot more then too. I'm not saying he still wouldn't be successful bc he's a truck, but he'd definitely feel the defense a lot more.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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I love how the Pistons lost every single one of those fights. Every single one.

Favorite, of course, is The Chief ******* smashing Lambier at 0:53.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
All I'm saying is he played much tougher defenses then, bc they were allowed to D up more then. Banning hand checking pretty much was equivalent to the illegal contact rule for CBs in football. It opened up Guard play immensely and made it much easier to attack the basket.

That's why PGs have seen a rebirth in the NBA over the past 6 years.

Hard fouls on anyone who attacked the paint was much more frequent back then too. They call flagrant fouls now on anything remotely physical.

I'm not gonna make an MJ vs LeBron comparison, bc there is no comparison. That wasn't my intention. All I'm saying is, the paint wouldn't be so wide open for LeBron in that era, and he'd get hit in the mouth a lot more then too. I'm not saying he still wouldn't be successful bc he's a truck, but he'd definitely feel the defense a lot more.
There's other factors to that, such as the massive lack of actual centers being useful (especially since the crown jewel of true centers has been crippled by injuries), and an influx of talented point guards. MJ rarely got hit in the mouth because most guys weren't stupid enough to truck the NBA's golden boy, and he got away with just as many travels and so forth as LeBron. The point you're making is all semantics, because LeBron is the best player in the NBA today, an all time great, and would have won the NBA championship this year regardless of what rules were in effect.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:17 PM    (permalink
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I love how the Pistons lost every single one of those fights. Every single one.

Favorite, of course, is The Chief ******* smashing Lambier at 0:53.
It's hard to win a fight when Parish blindsides Laimbeer like the stupid ***** he was.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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There's other factors to that, such as the massive lack of actual centers being useful (especially since the crown jewel of true centers has been crippled by injuries), and an influx of talented point guards. MJ rarely got hit in the mouth because most guys weren't stupid enough to truck the NBA's golden boy, and he got away with just as many travels and so forth as LeBron. The point you're making is all semantics, because LeBron is the best player in the NBA today, an all time great, and would have won the NBA championship this year regardless of what rules were in effect.
Oh they tried. The Knicks and Pacers tried taking his head off in the mid 90s plenty of times. The guy was just so damn fast and can contort his body in such ridiculous ways that you couldn't touch the guy. He made acrobatic layups look like free throws, plus he developed that post up turn around fade away to his game that made him unstoppable.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to make it a MJ vs LeBron argument, bc I agree with you, LeBron would be a great player in any era, and would win a ring in any era, I'm moreso talking about the quality of basketball then vs now.

I strongly believe that basketball in the mid to late 80s into the late 90s was the best era of basketball.

The only recent team that could hang with those Lakers, Celtics, and Bulls championship teams (even the 80s Pistons or the 90s Knicks for that matter) was probably the Lakers dynasty of the early 2000s. The rest...they're like today's NFL championship teams. Good, but not special.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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I'm not going to disagree with you, but it has been cost controlled to avoid those type of dynasties for a reason. The attempt to create other dynasties (Heat as Wade declines and they have horrible roleplayers, Knicks as Amar'e plummets into an abyss) has failed because they are not understanding the point of those dynasties.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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I'm not going to disagree with you, but it has been cost controlled to avoid those type of dynasties for a reason. The attempt to create other dynasties (Heat as Wade declines and they have horrible roleplayers, Knicks as Amar'e plummets into an abyss) has failed because they are not understanding the point of those dynasties.
Yeah parity is the name of the game these days. It's a good business model, and it's good for sports. Every sport should have parity, it makes the league much more exciting and is great for the overall growth of the league, in any sport.

But that of course has it's consequences too. Parity leads to watered down teams, and the peak of competition in the playoffs when the elite teams face off sees a decline in overall talent.

Which is why you hear guys like me say "back then it was better" bc truthfully, it was. The top several teams back then were better than now, both in basketball and football.

But I'm not complaining bc I do enjoy parity, and think it's good for sports. We just won't see any "greatest ever" type of teams anymore. If we do, they will be very rare. Like the 07 Patriots had a chance if they finished the deal, but those type of teams won't come along as frequently as they used to.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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But the Knicks will next year.

#KnicksIn2013
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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It's hard to win a fight when Parish blindsides Laimbeer like the stupid ***** he was.
Chief gets a pass on that one because that piece of ****, Laimbeer deserved it.

And while I do like parity, I also look back to the mid-late 80s and early 90s... Basketball was so much better then because the top teams were so much better than today's top teams. LeBron-Wade-Bosh would be a typical top team in that era except the teams they'd be playing against would have far superior other players.

Take the 90-91 Warriors... They were the 7 seed in the West that year and were 4th in their division. That team, with Mitch Richmond, Tim Hardaway, and Chris Mullin competes for a title in today's league.

That year was insane. You had the Jordan Bulls, Bird Celtics, Bad Boy Pistons, Barkley's 76ers, Robinson Spurs, Stockton-Malone, Olajuwon Rockets, Drexler Blazers, Magic-Worthy Lakers, KJ Suns, and a Ewing Knicks team that was the 8 seed in the East. You ******* kidding me? The Heat would just be another team that year.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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Chief gets a pass on that one because that piece of ****, Laimbeer deserved it.
At least Laimbeer cheapshoted guys head on. Parish is a little ***** for not doing the same.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:11 PM    (permalink
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I'd like to see the NBA cut down to at most 28 teams (pref 26). The talent pool is dwindling. Evidenced by pointlessness of the draft beyond the Top 15 picks (even that is stretching it at times).

Teams should be able to, at the very least, fill a rotation hole with their first round pick no matter where that pick lies.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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contracting who? New Orleans, Charlotte, Milwaukee, Sacramento?
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Old 06-23-2012, 10:59 PM    (permalink
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Instead of contracting, I'd rather that they just move teams to Europe and form a new division. Then they can do baseball type scheduling with series. Have a division of the Paris Whiteflaggers, German Shizers, London Beckhams, Milan Metrosexuals, and the Spanish Inquisitors. Then change the league schedule to 3 or 4 game series with more emphasis on divisional play. That should help avoid travel problems and lower cost. Then they could actually do a 'world' championship. Eventually they could add in Asia and South America/Caribbean regions.
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Old 06-23-2012, 11:36 PM    (permalink
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I'd like to see the NBA cut down to at most 28 teams (pref 26). The talent pool is dwindling. Evidenced by pointlessness of the draft beyond the Top 15 picks (even that is stretching it at times).

Teams should be able to, at the very least, fill a rotation hole with their first round pick no matter where that pick lies.
The fewer the teams, the more dense the talent (very good players would be bench players if there were fewer teams), the higher you would have to pick to get a starter.

In order for the player picked 30th to even have a hope of starting, there would need to be more teams.

However, I do think the number of teams has outgrown what the talent supports. If you saw Charlotte last season, you would agree.
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Old 06-24-2012, 12:08 AM    (permalink
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contracting who? New Orleans, Charlotte, Milwaukee, Sacramento?
Yeah, I think those would be the four.

Adding more teams or moving it to Europe is totally meh. The issue with the league is the quality of the teams up and down the league and dilution of the talent pool.

Dump those four teams, make all of the team option, qualifying offer, and player option guys free agents and have a one-round contraction waiver draft.

Player Pool
Al-Farouq Aminu
Bismack Biyombo
Jon Brockman
DeMarcus Cousins
Mike Dunleavy
Monta Ellis
Tyreke Evans
Jimmer Fredette
Francisco Garcia
Drew Gooden
Tobias Harris
Chuck Hayes
Gerald Henderson
Xavier Henry
Jarrett Jack
Brandon Jennings
Rashard Lewis
Corey Maggette
Luc Mbah a Moute
BJ Mullens
Travis Outlaw
John Salmons
Larry Sanders
Jason Smith
Isaiah Thomas
Tyrus Thomas
Marcus Thornton
Beno Udrih
Ekpe Udoh
Greivis Vasquez
Kemba Walker
Reggie Williams

Draft Order
Washington
Cleveland
Brooklyn
Golden State
Toronto
Detroit
Portland
Phoenix
Houston
Philadelphia
New York
Utah
Dallas
Orlando
Denver
Atlanta
Boston
LA Clippers
Memphis
LA Lakers
Indiana
Chicago
San Antonio
Oklahoma City
Miami

Free Agent Clauses (+ team option, * RFA, - player option)

+Gustavo Ayon
-Matt Carroll
-DeSagana Diop
*Eric Gordon
*Donte Greene
+Tyler Honeycutt
+Jon Leuer
+Shaun Livingston
*Jason Thompson
*DJ White
+Hassan Whiteside
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Old 06-24-2012, 12:12 AM    (permalink
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The fewer the teams, the more dense the talent (very good players would be bench players if there were fewer teams), the higher you would have to pick to get a starter.

In order for the player picked 30th to even have a hope of starting, there would need to be more teams.

However, I do think the number of teams has outgrown what the talent supports. If you saw Charlotte last season, you would agree.
I'm saying more that the number of teams shrink to fit the talent pool that comes into the league. Right now, the last 8 or more picks in a given draft are virtually worthless unless a team gets super ******* lucky. Drafting a guy in the last third of a 30-team NBA draft is like drafting someone in the 20th (maybe later, slightly arbitrary number) round of the MLB draft... The odds are sooo stacked against those guys to ever amount to anything.
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Old 06-24-2012, 12:41 AM    (permalink
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The problem isn't the lack of talent to fill rosters, the problem is that superstars have the power to force themselves into any team they want. In no other league can a player force a team to trade him to a team that he wants. At this rate, all the talent is going to be between only a few teams. I agree dropping teams would be nice, but it will never happen. The NBA is a business, and if cities can support their teams, they won't contract. Players just need to not be able to combine into superteams.
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Old 06-24-2012, 12:45 AM    (permalink
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I don't consider myself to be any sort of basketball expert, but it seems to me that actually enforcing the salary cap would limit the amount of those "super-teams." What's the point of a salary cap if you can spend significantly more than the cap every year?
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Old 06-24-2012, 12:58 AM    (permalink
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Get the **** out of here. Milwaukee and Sacramento both have a fair amount of talent on their rosters and New Orelans is set up nicely for 2013. Just because Charlotte is an abomination doesn't mean the league should contract. The teams with top 10 picks should just work on not ******* them up.
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Old 06-24-2012, 12:59 AM    (permalink
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Get the **** out of here. Milwaukee and Sacramento both have a fair amount of talent on their rosters and New Orelans is set up nicely for 2013. Just because Charlotte is an abomination doesn't mean the league should contract. The teams with top 10 picks should just work on not ******* them up.
It's not just those four teams. It's the entire league. And no one shows up to see those games anyway (which is why those 4 get the axe over others).

"Super teams" are good for the league and for everyone, though. Which kind of goes along with contraction.

I agree that contraction would never happen, but there are serious benefits to it. And I think it's fun to talk about. There's an obvious lack of talent compared to 20 years ago. It's not a different game and players aren't more athletic... There's just less talent and the talent in the league is severely diluted.
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Old 06-24-2012, 01:07 AM    (permalink
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NBA should just adopt some form of the Promotion and Relegation system.
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Old 06-24-2012, 01:17 AM    (permalink
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NBA should just adopt some form of the Promotion and Relegation system.
As fun as this would be for all sports, but with the NBA, say its 5 teams to the NBA, and down to the NBADL. U relegate Charlotte, Washington, Cleveland, New Orleans, and Sacramento. And u'd get a 3rd team in LA, a team in Springfield, one in Austin, one in North Dakota, and one in Erie. As fun as it would be, u already get players saying oh, I ain't playing in Cleveland. Why the **** would a play go oh, I GOT TO PLAY IN NORTH DAKOTA! As fun as it would be, it would be kind of a disaster too.
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Old 06-24-2012, 01:21 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, it's a bit different than in Europe where everywhere is pretty much the ******* same and with soccer there where everyone plays that one sport.

It'd be like if everyone that played Football and/or Baseball in the US only played one sport.
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